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The Mike Toole Show - Alternate History Makers




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Kezone



Joined: 08 Apr 2015
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Interesting article, it's never seemed like time travel is as common a topic in anime as it is in Western books and movies.

When I saw you talking about the Beatle Tribute band being sent back in time, I immediately recognized that I had seen something similar to that once-- not a manga, but a YA novel with a similar premise. I've never read it, just saw it when browsing, but even then the similarities struck me instantly. It took some googling, but I found the book was called "The Girl Who Became a Beatle" by Greg Taylor. Guess there's nothing new under the sun?
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Lemonchest



Joined: 18 Mar 2015
Posts: 1406
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:42 pm Reply with quote
Ah Silent Service. I imagine it as The Hunt for Red October as written by someone who was angry with the LDP for defenestrating Nakasone. Fun film.

edit: Not the biggest fan of alt-history, personally. As a thought experiment it's fun enough, but too often "what if?" becomes "if only..."


Last edited by Lemonchest on Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 2855
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:28 pm Reply with quote
While I've enjoyed Zipang, that Deep Blue Fleet series just sounds so off putting, historically speaking. "If Japan had better tactics, if Japan had more supplies, if Japan had better diplomacy, if Japan had better technology, if the US didn't have the atomic bomb, if Panama Canal was taken or destroyed and if Pearl Harbor was more of a complete annihilation..." and this is where everything comes clear; Japan didn't understand the US then and some people still don't get it later. Also, that is a lot of "What ifs" for one premise.

What would happen is the US involvement in WWII going from a two front war to a single front war, a single minded one at that. Bad for Europe, even worse for Japan. Pearl Harbor was less a "sleeping giant awakens" moment and more "This means WAR!... and about time, too!" one and all the future tech and knowledge would not overcome the eventual steel and personal shortages as the whole thing degrades to a war of attrition and air power.

"Allied forces are craven". I'm pretty sure that was the idea behind Pearl Harbor in the first place and I still can't figure that one out. The logistics of it was amazing, the idea itself was pretty bad. Self interest? That was what was keeping the US out of WWII and Britain from doing much to help France before it was too late so I can't say it's wrong. But it less about being cowards and more about being, what's the word, democracies, republics and what ever Britain was/is

And it culminates in Japan fighting Nazis... Nixon wanted "Peace with honor" but this guy has him beat with "Victory... with honor." He even has Japan teaming up with the defeated US to fight them; it's like a kid having the good guys and bad guys action figures team up to fight the bigger bad guys who are from a completely different toy line. Or is he trying to recast it as "good guys" and good guys are fighting the really real bad guys?
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Compelled to Reply



Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:10 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
While I've enjoyed Zipang, that Deep Blue Fleet series just sounds so off putting, historically speaking. "If Japan had better tactics, if Japan had more supplies, if Japan had better diplomacy, if Japan had better technology, if the US didn't have the atomic bomb, if Panama Canal was taken or destroyed and if Pearl Harbor was more of a complete annihilation..." and this is where everything comes clear; Japan didn't understand the US then and some people still don't get it later. Also, that is a lot of "What ifs" for one premise.

As Konpeki no Kantai is a work of fiction, "what if" scenarios should be taken with a grain of salt, considering the fact it's alternative history in the first place. Conversely, The Man in the High Castle is as cheesy and unrealistic. With your logic, the Japanese writers don't understand Imperial Japan itself. Its lack of supplies was one of the main reasons for invading China, and allying with Nazi Germany allowed it to secure more territory in Indochina conveyed by Vichy France. It's tactics and diplomacy went from strategic and amicable under Konoe, to aggressive and sour under Tojo. Japan's technology was already on par with its belligerents, hence why they were a superpower by World War I, and also our allies at the time. The firebombing of Japanese cities killed more people and destroyed more property than the atomic bomb, albeit costly and inefficient. Of course, taking or destroying the Panama Canal and extent of destruction at Pearl Harbor are attempts to support the miracle of defeating the United States.

To be fair, the general population in the United States didn't understand Japan then and many still don't today either, like they might believe World War II was started over Hitler killing Jews, and the American Civil War was fought over slavery. They believe we went to war with Japan because Pearl Harbor, which was triggered by sanctions over atrocities committed in China, despite the fact we and the Europeans did comparable stuff to our colonial subjects, too. Meanwhile, we allied with the Soviet Union, who were arguably far worse than Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan combined and multiplied several-fold. It was as short-sighted as Japan attacking us, and opened Pandora's Box in the form of the Cold War and problems with China, North Korea, Afghanistan, and the Middle East presently.

We had a swing attitude toward Japan since it became a superpower. As I said, we were allies with them in World War I as well as the Boxer Rebellion, and gave limited support during the Russo-Japanese War. However, Theodore Roosevelt hated Japan over the fact it was the only non-Eurocentric developed country in the world and believed they posed a threat (see Yellow Peril), so he leaned to support for the Russians. It's clear such sentiment extended to FDR, whose Delano side of the family had significant interests in China with the opium trade, and Japanese rule was perceived a threat (Tanaka memo), despite all foreign concessions and interests being honored until entering World War II.


Last edited by Compelled to Reply on Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 1404
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Deep Blue Fleet is an anime I'd love to see one day, but I doubt that I ever will, simply because it's likely intensely talkative, and while I can squeak by with just Japanese for some anime, when it gets more conversational then I inevitably just get as lost as most other fans. Sadly, I'm sure the whole "Pearl Harbor, only more destructive" plot point is easily the biggest turn-off for most people, and I can totally understand that. Still, as Mike brings up, that's kind of the appeal of alternate history stories.

Anyway, I did read the Samurai Commando manga CMX released back in the day, & i remember enjoying it. I also do have all of Geneon's Zipang DVDs, and I do hope to properly watch it all one day. That being said, the rekishi kaihen concept has always been around to some degree, though mainly via manga & games. Tons of stories about modern-day people being transported to times like Sengoku-era Japan or Three Kingdoms-era China (obviously), but I wouldn't mind seeing more anime in this style.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6552
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:47 pm Reply with quote
Zipang was great. But I'd still like to know how it ends. Even fansubbers dropped the manga, and I think it's unlikely to ever get a release here. I would be totally on board for a reboot that completed the story (in more than 12-24 episodes).
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 748
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:43 am Reply with quote
Compelled to Reply wrote:
To be fair, the general population in the United States didn't understand Japan then and many still don't today either, like they might believe World War II was started over Hitler killing Jews, and the American Civil War was fought over slavery.


It was.
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Codeanime93



Joined: 28 Jul 2017
Posts: 354
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:12 pm Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
Compelled to Reply wrote:
To be fair, the general population in the United States didn't understand Japan then and many still don't today either, like they might believe World War II was started over Hitler killing Jews, and the American Civil War was fought over slavery.


It was.


Also Hitler did more than just kill Jewish people, he started invading other countries in Europe and attacking others. That's really what sparked the Second World War.
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Compelled to Reply



Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:33 pm Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
Compelled to Reply wrote:
To be fair, the general population in the United States didn't understand Japan then and many still don't today either, like they might believe World War II was started over Hitler killing Jews, and the American Civil War was fought over slavery.


It was.

While the fate of slavery was certainly an aspect for Southern succession, state's rights and taxation were the main reasons. Sound familiar? The Civil War was fought simply to reunify the country.

Codeanime93 wrote:
Also Hitler did more than just kill Jewish people, he started invading other countries in Europe and attacking others. That's really what sparked the Second World War.

My point exactly. World War II started because Hitler invaded Poland. If it was over the Holocaust, the British wouldn't have capped the number of Jewish refugees to Palestine even after war and genocide broke out.
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Lemonchest



Joined: 18 Mar 2015
Posts: 1406
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Compelled to Reply wrote:
Shay Guy wrote:
Compelled to Reply wrote:
To be fair, the general population in the United States didn't understand Japan then and many still don't today either, like they might believe World War II was started over Hitler killing Jews, and the American Civil War was fought over slavery.


It was.

While the fate of slavery was certainly an aspect for Southern succession, state's rights and taxation were the main reasons. Sound familiar? The Civil War was fought simply to reunify the country.


Uh huh...
Alexander Stevens, VP of the Confederate States wrote:

The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 748
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:53 pm Reply with quote
Compelled to Reply wrote:
While the fate of slavery was certainly an aspect for Southern succession, state's rights and taxation were the main reasons.


Myth. The Confederacy said themselves, loudly and often, in the declarations I linked and in other sources like the cornerstone speech (EDIT: excerpted in the previous post), that they were seceding in defense of slavery and white supremacy. "States' rights" was bull cooked up after the fact by apologists. The only right they were trying to defend was the right to own slaves; when other states weakened that, they opposed states' rights.

I would strongly recommend reading Lies My Teacher Told Me; I imagine others may have their own recommendations. (If the mods tell us we're getting too off-topic, you can ask your local librarian, or find some other online group to ask.)
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Joe Carpenter



Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 470
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:45 pm Reply with quote
Today I learned of two anime I had never heard of before Zipang and Spirit of The Sun, that both sound very interesting, thanks Mike!
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