Forum - View topicNEWS: 30% of Adult Manga involve
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mistress_reebi Posts: 736 Location: Canada |
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Child porn is illegal because it is deemed obscene, violates the age of consent laws, and is abuse. Loli hentai may be drawings, but it is still classified as child pornography, which is obscene material. It's better to not get any sexual release from watching children, drawn or real. They may be people, but they are aroused at looking at drawn children, which is wrong. Censorship isn't a black and white situation. Some things need to be banned, ie hate material, child pornography. If nothing was banned it would go against human rights, and if everything was banned then there wouldn't be any form of entertainment, and will also go against human rights. Loli hentai is ment for people to become aroused at children, which is the same message as real child pornography. It's not a matter of freedom of expression, it's a matter of people are getting aroused over children, which is obscene. They may not be real children, but it's still child pornography. [/code] |
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HitokiriShadow Subscriber Posts: 4908 |
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Once again, you obscure or change the issue when someone calls your argument into question. You are the one making the accusation so the burden of proof lies with you. I already mentioned other 'reference material', but by all means, continue repeating the same inane argument.
In the end, your argument is crap. Assuming they needed 'reference material', there are legal ways they could obtain it. Or they could just *gasp* use their imagination. As if the artists hadn't seen plenty of loli or underage hentai before they started.
You can find numerous, numerous examples of drunk driving killing people or at least causing injury. In addition, alcohol has direct, immediate physical effects. On top of all that, drunk driving is an issue of casuality, not how the alcohol was made. You are trying to paint an orange red and compare it to an apple and it just doesn't work.
That's funny, because we had a similar issue with videogams called Colombine. While video games are under fire and have had issues with censorship, they are still legal.
I would see switchblades as being the equivalent of real childporn and I see it fitting a hell of a lot better than your drunk driving example. But hey, don't let me stop you from repeating the same inapplicable analogy over and over again. |
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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Please enlighten me, give me a reference source that is free and clear of 2256(8)(C). And no, I don't buy the "they use their imaginations" crap either, if Hayao Miyazaki has his people use reference material, I very much doubt some schmuck would be stuck drawing loli if he had a better imagination. |
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| HitokiriShadowSubscriber Posts: 4908 |
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| Look back a few pages, I gave you examples already. | ||||||||||
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omar235 Posts: 1569 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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For about 95% of the part it is because it is the sextual abuse of a child which in turn means the violation of the age of consent laws. Very little has to do with its obscenity in the long run. Hentai and porn are obscene to some people but that doesn't mean it should be or ever will be illegal.  They can say it is obscene because it is but it isn't the only reason nor is it the most important one. |
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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So you have: 1. A recursive argument, see fruit of the poisoned tree. 2. Women "regressed", fine, but 2256(8)(C) draws a fine line as to when that becomes CP. 3. Dervivative of Anatomy texts, would CP according to 2256(8)(C). The original images are okay as they are not "graphic", "lewd" or and any of the other fun adjectives that the PROTECT Act includes, but the moment such images are used in such a capacity, it becomes CP under 2256(8)(C). You see, anatomy books use real people as reference material, that's how you draw realistic looking people. So your best argument (aside from suggesting that all loli artists have better imaginations than Hayao Miyazaki), is that they use images of under-age looking women? Wouldn't they have used the real thing before '99, as it was legal? |
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| omar235 Posts: 1569 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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| Maybe you should read my post burzmali they don't neccesarily need better imaginations, maybe someone who know about animation can prove or disprove what I say but using refrence material is more of easier way since Hayao Miyazaki is the one who imagined those character designs like any good artist, the artist under him are helping him animate those drawing he already thought up and drew. Now what you fail to realize is that no one has been charged by those child porn laws for having loli as long as they weren't already convicted sex offenders. No one has been arrested for having loli alone, they have only been arrested for having child porn along with it so it is stpid to argue about laws that haven't even been flexed on loli. | ||||||||||
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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My Hayao Miyazaki comment comes straight from the making of documentary of Spirited Away. Miyazaki wanted the dragon to look like a dog, so they got a handful of dogs and looked and sketched. When they got what they wanted, they ran with it. Nobody tried to imagine a dragon from scratch, hell, they didn't even imagine dogs from scratch, why would you think that loli artists try to imagine children from scratch? When are you going to understand that the wheels of government move slowly? At the moment there is no specific public outcry over loli or even CP in general. Wait for a Tsutomu Miyazaki to turn up on American soil, that's when laws like this will be applied in force. Hell, it wouldn't even take a loli connection really, another Westley Allan Dodd would be plenty. Edit: As to your point about lots of hentai and porn being obscene too, well title 18 section 1466 makes that illegal too, though I doubt the government is too eager to burn tax dollars trying to stem the tide, though they do fire off a case or two from time to time see: http://www.justice.gov/ |
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| omar235 Posts: 1569 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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Because it is illegal for them to use real model. I could probably imagine a dragon that looked a bit like a dog, but since having a dog as a model isn't illegal they went and got a dog for them to get a realistic look at the features of a dog. I sketch alot of things without having a model of them off the top of my head and they can do the same but hey if there is a way to get some refrence material (that is legal) why not.
Alright I am pretty much done with this topic so I probably wont be posting again since I really don't care anymore it is just going to go on and on anyways. I don't even want to respond to the rest of what you said. I don't want you to think I am angry or anything it is just that I just don't want to talk about this any more. 
Edit: porn...illegal according to laws on the book...I guess I will take your word for it but someone might want to look at it since by what I read I think you misinterpreted it...isn't bestiality illegal...besides if they distributed the material in a illegal fashion without proper label warnings of the contents of the DVD's then yes what they did is illegal. |
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| Doddler Posts: 17 |
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| I don't get the whole point, most mangaka either use existing art as reference (of which there is an inccredible amount of, most of which is very cheap) or use these really fancy posable figures for art if you need an example of a pose. I have a friend who was selling his own book (adult book) at a japanese convention, and he uses them quite frequently as reference.
Anyways, to say art can be illegal for the sole purpose that someone could have used something illegal to make it is quite an overbearing concept don't you think? |
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Kouji Posts: 978 |
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| [quote="burzmali"]When are you going to understand that the wheels of government move slowly? At the moment there is no specific public outcry over loli or even CP in general. .quote]What? There's no public outcry over child porn in general? What's this whole PROTECT ACT and Amber Alert thing for then? Ok, you officially know nothing about what you're talking about, so I'm also done debating this with someone who thinks there's no public outcry over child porn in general. | ||||||||||
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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Good, I guess. The point is that the AMBER alert program has nothing to do with CP, and the parts of the PROTECT act that deal with CP, are there many close a loophole in the existing law, not to respond to a massive public outcry concerning the proliferation of CP. Public outcry is when parents find a porn scene in a game and go to the press. Imagine a "bonus" feature on a moe show's DVD that contained some of the hentai fan art, that would generate public outcry on loli. |
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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Legality and morality are two different beasts. The legality of anything is determined by Congress in the US. Congress has made loli illegal per the PROTECT Act, and while it hasn't been challenged on Constitutional grounds, the writers of the bill were very careful when they framed it. The morality is more of a personal matter. People are claiming that loli is "acceptable" and CP "unacceptable" because one results from abuse to a child. I am merely suggesting that loli is too closely tied to CP to be disentangled by such a blanket statement. Both were legal and dealt with the same topic for an extended period of time. How can the two so easily be separated now? |
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| mistress_reebi Posts: 736 Location: Canada |
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Porn is considered obscene, but under Canadian law, child pornography is considered the most obscene material, which has been banned. Pornography can be sold and shown in public, if it is in a cinema, properly rated, and in an adult video store.
Pornography has mental effects, which can be just as bad as physical. If one is addicted to pornography, it is harder for them to break that habit because they are mentally dependent on it, which can cause physical effects if having anexity. |
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