Forum - View topicWhy is Shinji hated so much?
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Ahiru
 Posts: 62 Location: ...just a duck in Oregon |
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Many clinically depressed individuals are mentally and physically incapable of taking any kind of action whatsoever, much less being able to "maintain a healthy mindset". In severe cases, some depressives must be physically manipulated into any kind of action in much the way Misato was dragging Shinji around in EOE. Many cases of depression require medication to maintain a chemical balance in the brain. I'd say Shinji exhibits several symptoms of clinical depression by episode 4 (and shortly after the events of EOE transpire, he is nearly catatonic) I actually feel pretty sad for everybody in NGE, except for Keel/Seele, and probably Gendou. (I'm also on the fence about whether Yui is a heroine or just extremely selfish, but that's another topic...  )
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Iwatch2muchanime
 Posts: 1291 |
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Ya, I know. Constantly bringing this point up doesn't help. Because all it does is lead to more yelling about what we think he should or shouldn't be doing. He's his own person and does what he does. I'm just saying what I think he should be doing.
Yes, while the sniper is currently in the situation, there's no point in thinking that in him thinking that until he's gotten out of the situation and has time to reflect.
That goes for all sides of any criticism.
I've never tried to sound intelligent. I only say the first words that come to my head that attempt to get my point across. |
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Ktimene's Lover
 Posts: 2242 Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert) |
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Since Shinji is in love with Asuka; has occasional comical scenes; and lives with the 2 hotties, and finds himself attracted to Rei, could Eva count as a semiromantic comedy and harem?
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selenta
 Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I was talking about the opinion of those who dislike Shinji in this case, as you do not share this opinion.
I'm not 'complaining' any more than anyone else here. I'm only trying to get you to see what I'm saying.
Nothing.
I never said that, maybe you should read my posts more carefully before you post such trash.
Yeah, anyone who complains should be put to death by order of the royal magistrate of ME.[/sarcasm] Honestly, where do you come up with this stuff?
Ok, I wasn't very clear, but I meant that you said it within the context of why you thought people dislike Shinji. 'bad' is also not a very descriptive word, I should have said something like "but we do not agree on why his personality reminding us of real life annoys people"
Do you REALLY not understand what I'm trying to say? Or are you just trying to be inflammatory? Here, I'll copy and paste it for you once again:
and the problem I had with what you had been claiming (which I now see you have changed your apparent viewpoint) was that you said that:
Which was not particularly subtle in implying that people who do not like Shinji must not like him because they are not introspective and hate to have their world views challenged. I am telling you this is wrong, now you seem to be agreeing with me and claiming you have been saying that all along.
I would have hoped I wouldn't have to point out that there is a difference between being depressed, and wallowing in your own misery for one. Second, I listed what I thought was the best way, not the only way. Either way, I'm saying this only within the sense of those who wish to complain: you can sit there and mope and feel sorry for yourself (you certainly won't earn my pity that way), but if you want to complain about your situation, you better at least be trying. I think you're way too fixated on making me out to be some sort of horrible inhuman monster with no morals, and not enough focused on what I'm actually saying.
Explain to me why you should have the right to complain about something you go along with? If you live in this country, you follow its rules, even if you disagree. There is nothing stopping you from moving to another country except your own choice. If you don't want to fight in a war, you lobby to try and change the policies or if that doesn't work, you move somewhere else where those policies aren't an issue. If you still live here and still don't want to join when you get drafted, you dodge the draft; it's a crime, but that's because society has to have rules to function. Why should you get the right to complain about a war you did nothing to stop from starting or even to stop yourself from participating in? It's unfortunate, and you can be distraught at the situation, but you don't get to complain or wallow in your depression as far as I'm concerned. EDIT:
This is true. Medication is needed in a number of cases of depression, and probably would have at least been 'helpful' in Shinji's case. I pity Shinji because noone around him cared about him, and noone really did what they should have to help him. However, I don't completely subscribe to the idea that Shinji's depression needed drugs to fix it. If this was the case, then things would get much more complicated. I've never seen a compelling case for this though, so I'm going to continue to assume that medication wasn't completely neccessary. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Reminds me of a friend of my father's when he was still living out west a few years ago had a similar problem with his wife. While my memory is very bad concerning the story, there was some incident (Or perhaps a gradual build-up?) that led to her being literally incapable of experience any "extreme" emotion, such as happiness or sadness. She was, for all intents and purposes, utterly apathetic, and there wasn't much of a change of her at all even after seeking help. There was apparently nothing that could be done. The man eventually divorced her because he honestly couldn't live under those conditions, which was probably better off for the pair of them.
Considering that he's so far gone at the beginning of the series that spoiler[he can't even commit suicide, as said by Anno and evidenced by him standing on the edge of the cliff in episode four,] and that by the end of EoE spoiler[he had been left alone for so long after he had returned from the sea of LCL (the rust of Misato's cross is visual evidence for this), waiting for someone to return and presumably driven to near-madness because of it, his reaction to Asuka returning wasn't really a surprising one.]
Ditto, though I feel sorry for Gendo in a bizarre way in spite of his ruthless actions. As for Yui... spoiler[I'd say that while she was a bit chaotic in her actions and thoughts, what her views are of humanity and what she did was certainly admirable.]
It's easy to say, "Well, they should've reacted like this..." or "I would've done this differently," but it's in human nature to make mistakes, to have weaknesses. It doesn't seem something that we'll be able to overcome at all, let alone in the near future.
Uh, not all criticism is ridiculous.
I would hope that this doesn't apply to every post of yours, since ANN seemingly prides itself on posts that aren't thought up on the spot.
For the first half of the series, I suppose you could put that label to it.
Fair enough, since I've already stated I take a neutral position on "liking" or "disliking" his character.
Ditto.
I never said that, maybe you should read my posts more carefully before you post such trash.
Whoa, wait, trash? How about you finish your sentence there?
Considering that the person's personality is, well, who they are, then I presumed that something similar could be said to the person. If that is not what you were implying, though, forgive me.
Fair enough; however, I don't see how I'm exactly "incorrect" by stating that because people find that type of personality annoying in real life, then a fictional character containing that same personality would be hated by them as well.
If I wanted to be inflammatory I would post as Anonymous on some image board, which I don't do. I don't see the point in "flaming" others. Here, I'll copy and paste it for you once again:
The wording might've been off, but the implications were and still are what I've been stating since then. I can't speak for everyone else, obviously, but you so far as the only one to think of that comment as anything else while others have received it as I intended.
The thing is that some can't literally deal with it, and there are cases for those who can have such difficult situations/lives that they simply can't cope with it. Every single mind does not deal with every single situation in the same method, obviously, and there already have been given examples where there are those who can't go beyond their state of mind. Just to note, don't confuse me for someone who is advocating just lying around and feeling sorry for yourself. But on the other hand some people don't have the proper direction that they need in life; they just simply can't achieve it on their own. If we take an unsympathetic viewpoint likes yours, and as a result some people won't bother to help them, then they'll never get better. Hell, hentai4me's post on the previous page is evidence of that, because he himselfs admits to having needed support from others. You're asking for the impossible out of some, because not everyone is going to be independent and pull out of their slump, so to speak. Humans need one another, in general, be they the givers or the takers, and to not go along with the fact disrupts that aspect and creates more of an "inbalance."
Geez, I would consider that to be a bit too far out there. I'm kind of lost as to where I tried to showcase you as such.
Because not every single action you make is voluntary. Last I checked, it was required to sign up for the draft and if you're picked, then you're forced to go, damned what you think.
Not all rules are just and fair. What your country asks out of you is not always right. A country asking you to defend your freedom without even letting you know what your freedom is, let alone the fact there are times when you and your country's freedom is not even in danger, is inane.
But there are those who don't have the means. Immigration itself is becoming more and more of a problem in one way or another for numerous countries around the globe, and the majority of people, I would suspect, don't even have the money to make a move for the better.
Because you weren't involved in its cause? You didn't trigger the first gun that went off to start a blood bath? You don't want to lose your life over something that might be of absolutely no true consequence to you, your loved ones, and even those that live in your own country? You don't want to be forced to potentially go out and take another human's life, the life of someone who you probably would've never met in your life, to steal away their chance to live?
When you're cornered, have no options available to you, can't make it better for your situation, what else is there to do? "Keep a stiff upper lip"? "Tomorrow will be a new day?" Those don't always cut it. I can't really add on much more right now other than I implore you to check out a previously mentioned title I brought up. Either check out the book, Johnny Got His Gun, or watch the movie adaption by the writer. It is one of the most tragic, and emotionally powerful works of fiction ever created, in my mind, and I'd go a step further and say that it is arguably the most dark "personal" story crafted in fiction. While many would take it as an anti-war story, it goes above and beyond that by showing the consequences of following blindly, unquestioningly the concepts of "patriotism" and "honor," the negligence of those in the power to aid the ones that desperately require it the most, and the ultimate futility of what we as humans to do appease ourselves by not stepping out of line.
Medication is for suckers, at least for many cases. Way back when I took it, it temporarily made me better, but gradually I grew back to my prior state and even became worse. It's no more than a way for money to come flying out of your pockets. |
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Iwatch2muchanime
Posts: 1291 |
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I never said people never had weaknesses nor did I say we should be able to overcome them at all. Again, I'm just stating what I believe he should've done. It's only considered a mistake to ME and PEOPLE who believe the same. I know that, just speaking out for one of the many sides of criticism.
But all criticism isn't needed. Yet we do it anyway. It's how we attempt to make arguments about things nobody needs to argue about. Especially for fictional characters
*awkward silence* *Cricket noise* *Cricket Noise* *Cricket Noise* . . . |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Well then, you're forgiven. I never equated a person's worth with their personality or with their personality traits, nor did I in any way imply such a thing. One aspect of a person may be unacceptable to me, that doesn't make the person unacceptable.
Very well, if that is what you've been trying to imply all along, I'll drop it with the understanding that we are saying the same thing and I was misconstruing what you said. The only thing I ask is that you explain to me how this quote, particularly the condescending introspective bolded part, is exactly what you meant and why it is not what I've been claiming you were saying:
Other things:
You completely misconstrue what I say, and assume I'm making judgement calls about how people are worthless and make the above statement, then wonder why I think you might just be trying to slander me and discredit my argument that way? (It mostly bothers me that this strategy is attempted so often and is accepted so readily by many people)
You're right, it's not voluntary, so long as you wish to live in this country.
You're absolutely right, life isn't fair. But like I said, you have three options before something like this happens: 1.) do nothing 2.) try and stop it (in this case politically) 3.) move to another country where this problem doesn't exist and thus avoid it If you do nothing, don't try to stop it, and don't try to change it, but still wish to live in this country without having to do the same things that everyone else in this country does, you're an idiot. Living here, despite what you may believe, is a choice. If you wish to live the life of an American, you have to deal with the responsibilities that come with being a citizen here.
I know this is difficult to understand, but I'll say it one more time: if you were really opposed to doing it, there are ways to get around not doing it. You sound like you're really really against the draft, and I can understand that, but that's a problem with the law itself, not a counterexample to my argument.
I'll agree with the part that says medication is given out too often, but if you're trying to imply that in general "medication is for suckers" you clearly don't work with said people. |
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Raven Shinobi
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Shinji's case and reading the others' posts reminded me of a problem that I had up to when I was thirteen -I had a speech problem and always had diffuculty in stating a complete sentence without stuttering to the point that made me regret and beat myself around for opening my mouth in the first place and as a result, I withdrew from making friends and communicating with people in general because I thought everyone is going to laugh behind my back for the way I speak and didn't even attempt to address to my parents that I had a problem and how much it was bothering me that I was seemingly the only kid at school who wasn't able to speak properly and make friends like everyone else, maybe because I thought that I was pathetic for not being able to do something that everyone around me was able to do with such ease.
However, the social worker at school noticed my social withdrawl -I find it sad that she only noticed because I was such a good student back then- and informed my parents of my social state at school and directed me to a therapist who at first contemplated that I should take an autism test to see if my social withdrawl is due to that, but for some reason declined from the idea and focused on correcting my speech and filling me with confidence and self esteem. The point is if the people around me had not noticed my problem and cared that I needed help, I would never have been able like I am now to speak out my mind and make friends, that might be the reason why I can relate to Shinji and feel great empathy for him, because no one -with the exception of Misato to some extent- have noticed or cared that he needed being shown that he's loved and needed for other reasons that just piloting a gigantic mechanical monster -especially from his father. |
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Yuri Kawai
 Posts: 31 Location: Lesbos Island, where everyone is Lesbian |
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Because he masturbated looking at Asuka while she's in a ,.
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ayato-the-tuner
Posts: 6 |
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None of them are moping around in depression and doing little or nothing about it. Anybody who knows me could tell you that that just isn't me. I've had some bad sh*t happen to me in my life, I don't go around whining about it forever. Why? Because it accomplishes nothing.
Depression isnt somthing you really have a choice about, its chemical inbalances in the brain, genreally seratonin levels and such, if you have true depression then its not always a choice, not everything can be fixed with a "possitive attitude" . I'm not saying moping helps but you can't hold a chemical defect against them, obviously i also realise shinji is not real and subserquently can't have a chemical inblance but thought i'd comment on they way you were talking about depression in terms of real people. |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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Depression isn't always caused by a chemical imbalance; if your life has truly been pissed away beyond all recognition then it's completely normal to be depressed. When you have over six billion people on the planet there will be many millions of seriously depressed people. Not all of them will be depressed just because of some imbalance; many of them will be depressed for fully legitimate reasons. Life can be relatively easy for some folks and extremely tough for others. That's just the way it is and probably always will be. Just be glad you got a chance to experience anime before you became yet another statistic. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, rust to rust.
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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Really? ... well, whatever...
Well, maybe you did, but that doesn't mean his statement about an audience's reaction to this specific type of character (and genre of movies in general) is wrong in general. Actually you can observe this kind of audience reaction very often. A lot of people don't want to see unpleasant kinds of characters and movies because "I dont want to be reminded of actual-real life in movie entertainment. Why should I consume this when I'm already living it?" ... I hear that kind of argument a lot.
Both POV are equally valid, and what Hellkorn "assumes" I consider as common sense, but that doesn't mean it's the only reason as to why people hate a character like shinji. Last edited by Swissman on Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Iwatch2muchanime
Posts: 1291 |
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What? Both POV are not valid. Assumptions are never valid (until proven so) even if, in some miracle, they're correct. Taking in somebodies reason for not likeing something is more valid, but still (over a forum) doesn't hold much. Anyway, theperson who tells you why they don't like something is normally more valid. |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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Notice the quotation marks I used. They're rather important to understand the point I'm trying to pass. |
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selenta
Subscriber Posts: 1774 Location: Seattle, WA |
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You call that violent? Geez, I would hate to bump into you walking down the street... I'd probably get sued for assault 
People may say that, but I would make that case that they are far and away a vast minority compared to the reasoning I gave. It may sound condescending, but let's look at the people who at least seem to have supported my claim on this thread (whether that was their intention when they were posting or not):
Although most of the people posting in this thread are Shinji supporters, these were all the snips I could find where people directly say they disliked Shinji and why. All of them seem to support what I was saying. I didn't see a single person come here and claim they didn't like him because he made them think, or because he made them remember they were watching a TV show with his ultra realistic attitude.
Although this comment is not directly for or against what I'm saying, it is a good quote, as it really gets to the root of what I'm saying(and why I was so bothered by HellKorn's one comment), if only indirectly: whether one likes or dislikes Shinji in no way inherently means anything about anything that person's beliefs or values. I didn't dislike Shinji because I didn't want to think about my own life or wanted to avoid some sort of mental reckoning that would have been inevitable had I only been willing to "see the light" by empathizing with Shinji, I didn't like him because he was a whiny brat who didn't do what needed to be done.
His assumption is indeed relatively reasonable, but in the face of direct first-hand contradictory evidence (well, as strong of evidence as is theoretically possible to provide for opinions), it is not equally valid. Common sense is not always right, nor is what everyone considers "common sense" the same. I for one would consider that "what Jim says about Jim's thoughts is infinitely more valid than what Joe says about Jim's thoughts" to be "common sense". |
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