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ashram12



Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:10 am Reply with quote
I'd like to discuss the depiction of rape in anime and manga if possible. I know it's an unpleasant subject, but something crossed my mind...
When I first saw Ninja Scroll years ago, I couldn't finish watching it the first time. The violence grossed me out completely, but I finally hit the stop button after Kagero's rape. The next day, I decided to give Ninja Scroll another try and made sure to have fast forward through any scene overly graphic. I found the movie enjoyable, but the rape scenes (as well as extremely gorry violence) really hampered my overall view of the film.

In terms of manga, I had spotted in my local comic book shop a copy of Sanctuary, and while the art really intrigued me, I put the book down after I saw some "interesting" panels. I've finally read a bit of Sanctuary, and I find the plot very interesting, but again the sexual content is a big turnoff.

Here is my complain: why were rape scenes included in these works when these scenes added nothing to the story? Unfortunately, these two works aren't the only ones to have gratuitous mysoginistic content. I'd like to know what drives the creators to put that kind of content into their work.
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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 5058
Location: Fresno, TX

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:47 am Reply with quote
would you prefer tentacles? Wink
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Steventheeunuch



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 2973
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:13 am Reply with quote
In Ninja Scroll atleast, it can be atributed to the fact Tessai was well... depraved of morals. I think.
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JETBLACK87



Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:28 pm Reply with quote
my friend saw Ninja Scroll and said if he had done it he would of had in implied but not shown. it part of the story though right? cause the people got poisoned.
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LordAkira2019



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:24 pm Reply with quote
Uhh.. I don't think you'd like Perfect Blue then... There are two graphic rape scenes in that one....
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:46 pm Reply with quote
LordAkira2019 wrote:
Uhh.. I don't think you'd like Perfect Blue then... There are two graphic rape scenes in that one....


Well, the Perfect Blue rape scenes are slightly different. spoiler[The first one, being a part of the Double Bind movie, doesn't actually happen. The second one is attempted, but thwarted before he actually rapes her.] Also, while they are graphic, they aren't explicit.

But despite this, because of the whole psychologicly dark mood of Perfect Blue, the two scene can be quite disturbing, much more so than what is presented in Ninja Scroll.

Personally, scens like these don't actually bother me. There is a reasonable arguement for implying without showing, but an Implied rape won't affect the viewers nearly as much as one that is shown. The goal of the filmmakers is to disturb people for that portion of the film, to make them see & feel the horror of the person being raped.


What bothers me in a lot of Anime porn, are the rape scenes that are treated so casually. Of course, this is now porn that we're talking about, not main stream Anime.
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ChichiriMuyo



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:37 pm Reply with quote
Having seen Ninja Scroll several times I must say that the first rape seen is an important part of the movie that wouldnt work as well if it were implied. Perhaps it wouldnt be too much to ask if it were less graphic in nature, but even then it may ruin it. Its not only important in the defeat of an enemy but it also shows you in a very blunt matter what kind of person Kagero is and what kind of life she has lead. Its difficult to watch sometimes, but it adds a great deal of depth to the character and her life-long plight. It actually makes you sympathize with her, despite her being a very cold hearted person, and without expressing the many reasosn why she is that way she could easily become the type of character you may hate. I personally dislike cold-hearted characters (it took me forever before I could stop hating Cloud in FF7 because of that) and showing a person who has been mistreated all her life as being such will help you accept her more desite her seeming to be heartless. Also, without all this to make a proper background for the character you can never appreciate the growth of the character when her heart softens and she realizes not everyone in the world is self-serving and out to use or abuse her. A revelation she may have made just a bit too late, but with a very potent message. As far as Perfect Blue... Its supposed to be a psychological thriller and therefor anyhting that graphically shows the factors involved in the breakdown of Mimarin, enhances the fear and desperation of the character so that you as the viewer can feel what she is feeling (and perfect blue does an awesome job at making you feel afraid and confused), and that is the whole point of the movie. Lessenning anything that happened in PB would completely affect the feel of the movie and would make it far less great than it is. Kite is another example, and like NS, provides necessary background to show the viewer why the character they have been watching is they way they are. At least these movies use these scenes as a means to tell the story and flech out the characters unlike some of those very bad hentai movies which, yes, treat rape like its nothing at all.

finally, a line from perfect blue (don't take this as a direct quote), even Jodie Foster did a rape scene to help advance her career.
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Tanro



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 2
Location: Planet New Vegeta

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:50 pm Reply with quote
I don't really get this either. If you have seen Akira a girl gets beaten and almost raiped in it which was disgusting and disturbed my friends little sister who was whatching it with me to see a half naked woman with a beaten and bruised face in a cartoon.
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LordAkira2019



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:22 pm Reply with quote
I always skip that part when watching Akira. Kaori doesnt deserve it at all.
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mahoro



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:34 pm Reply with quote
You need to consider first and foremost who the target audience for anime and manga is. Anime and mangas filled with graphic violence, yakuza, socio-political and mecha, generally tend to be created and marketed for men in their 20s to 30s or boys, they are -not- created for girls or women. Also just because you happen to be a male, not all animes and/or mangas are meant for you. You might like mecha but remember again, not all animes are created alike for boy and girls. I do not stress this to be crass, but this is part of successfully marketing anime, you must know your targeted audience. Furthermore, you must give the audience what they want otherwise they won't support your product.

In the case of the excellent manga Sanctuary, the audience again, was not women rather it was men. The readers and loyal supporters of Ryoichi Ikegami's lush works come to -expect- graphic violence and specifically hardcore sex scenes. Once Ikegami was interviewed and asked why does he incorporate such scenes in his works. His response was simple and direct, "it's what the fans want" aka fan service. Also, for your information another Ikegami classic, Crying Freeman had considerably more graphic sex and violence than Sanctuary.

In the case of Kawajiri's Ninja Scroll, the graphic rape scene actually served a purpose for Kagero's character development. Her world is a living hell. She can never share the love of another being and she is damned to a life of isolation, both emotional and physical. Her rape scene is extremely effective in illustrating this aspect and the bitterness/contempt she has for her life. Her value and cheap disregard for her life becomes clear especially to Jubei. However, you might not fully understand the purpose of the rape scene used in NS. It should also be noted fans of Kawajiri's works tend to expect graphic violence and sex. This has become his (much like Ikegami) signature and m.o.

IMO if you continually place your values onto whatever work itself, generally you will have a considerably difficult time appreciating and understanding the world/characters and themes used by the creator. Remember you are only the audience when consuming these products, it helps to immerse yourself without preconceptions. Naturally however, there will be animes and mangas that you will not care for no matter how open-minded you are. For example anime and manga that you might find offense and undesirable might include anything involving homosexuality, hentai, graphic violence and/or horror to name a few genres. Perhaps these types of works are ones you may wish to avoid in the future. Case in point Akira, I didn't care for the overall theme and while the rape/assault scene was easily forgotten for myself, you might not feel the same. As such, I cannot stress enough it behooves you to research the contents of works you are interested in, before you attempt to watch and/or read it. Cavet emptor!

Lastly, you should bear in mind, in Japan graphic violence and sex is considerably more acceptable than in Western countries. What someone from a Western country might find offense, may not be regarded as the same by the audience for these which these works were created for in Japan. More importantly, the target audience for which these animated and illustrated works were created, tend to continue to keep these specific genres flourishing. There is a strong consumer base for these types of works, but it just so happens to be that they are not meant for you. Wink
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ashram12



Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:29 pm Reply with quote
I understand that the rape scene in Ninja Scroll serves a purpose, the scene which I should have used was the scene where Kagero reports back to the lord of the castle and he's doing it with a servant (or something). It wasn't a rape, but it was a bit uncalled for. I also enjoyed Perfect Blue :)
I realize that japanese and american culture are different, and I'd like to know how different they are in regards to sex. Taking Sanctuary as an example, one of the yakuza characters is promiscuitous. His sexual encounters,as far as I've seen, are not the loving kind... it's more about his domination over the women he sleeps with. I've read that in many hentai, the women raped are shown as enjoying it. I could go on, but basically I get the feeling that in japanese culture, depicting women as sexual objects doesn't come with the moral stigma associated here in the US. Personally I can't help but feel it's wrong to let man fantasize about raping women...
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Dark Nero



Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 220
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:36 pm Reply with quote
If you don't like anime's with graphic scenes, and mabye disturbing content, the fast forward button on ur remote is your friend.
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JETBLACK87



Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:26 pm Reply with quote
Dark Nero wrote:
If you don't like anime's with graphic scenes, and mabye disturbing content, the fast forward button on ur remote is your friend.


or cartoon network Laughing
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:36 pm Reply with quote
ashram12 wrote:
Personally I can't help but feel it's wrong to let man fantasize about raping women...


Personally, I agree with you. I think most here would.

Japanese animated and live porn have a disturbing trend of glamourizing rape.

In Anime porn, you'll find three different kinds of rape scenes.

"I'm Being Raped but I like it" - These rape scenes are typically the least offensive to watch, but IMHO the most offensive to think about. They show a girl being forced to have sex, but ending up enjoying it and perhaps coming back for more. They suggest that rape is okay.

"I'm Being Raped by Monsters" - Tentacle Porn, Urotsukidoji, etc... Other than the fact that its supernatural, in can actually fit into the above or the below category.

Violent Rape - These show a girl being raped. Crying and fighting about it, and not enjoying it at all. These are the most vile things to watch IMHO, and I can't understand how people get off on them. They are very popular in Live action Japanese porn. However, at least they don't suggest that women enjoy being raped.

The first two categories are very common in Anime Porn, in fact, you'll have a hard time finding an Anime Porn title that doesn't have a rape scene in it.

ashram12 wrote:
Personally I can't help but feel it's wrong to let man fantasize about raping women...


Here's the tough question. Is it right to let people fantasize about killing others? Even if you discount the "rightful killing" that most movies and Anime contain (a hero killing bad guys), its still not uncommon to find graphic portrayals of Murder. Why can we stomach a person getting violently killed for the worst possible reasons?

-t
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:17 pm Reply with quote
Given that most women would rather die than be raped, I'd say the concept of murder being equitable to rape is arguable. In the parlance of our times, there are several things considered 'worse' than murder, and I think rape is one of them (the worst being child rape/molestation/pornograpy). I think depictions of rape that are intended to shock and horrify and educate men and women about the horrors of what rape really is are justified and, sometimes, necessary, given how desensitized we are to such things.

Pornographic depictions of rape are tasteless and, IMHO, down there with child porn. In Japan, it seems to be considered more 'acceptable'; probably because women are still second-class citizens there. Japanese women are still horribly subjugated and they have a long way to go before they enjoy the same kind of equity that American women do. I personally can't wait for the Japanese attitude to catch up with America; perhaps then we'll see a decline in rape fantasy.

-Z
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