Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2007-03-16]
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frouella
 Posts: 199 Location: 大阪 |
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My, that's quite an impressive library of anime you've got there. But my personal collection is WELL OVER 9000!!! 
Mmmwell, I'm not saying that I'm tired of the American VAs, just that I can pick their voices out easier because they're distinctive. I know that some Japanese VAs have done far more anime series, but usually they're able to modify their voices to the point where they're not so easy to point out. For example, to me, Seki Tomokazu sounds completely different when he plays different characters (Chiaki in Nodame Cantabile, Brandon Heat/Beyond the Grave in Gungrave, Shuichi Shindo in Gravitation, Chichiri in Fushigi Yuugi, Nobu in NANA, etc.). Same goes for Miki Shinichiro and Inoue Kazuhiko. Maybe it's because they're speaking Japanese and that's not my first language, or maybe they're just good. As for the KKM dub, I don't have a problem with most of it; Ms. Marshall just seems to subscribe to the whole over-enunciation thing, in addition to her honorable membership in the "Of course I'm angry, listen to how LOUDLY I'm speaking!" school of thought. But I think we can agree to disagree on that point, no? |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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Didn't have time to finish this before work this morning...
But... If you consider anime viewers as falling at some point on a spectrum, you'd have the casual viewers that stick to a small number of mainstream/popular shows at one end. At the other end, you'd have the "hardcore" segment that is interested in anything and everything. Those who download terabytes worth of anime fall into this second category, since there are only so many Cowboy Bebops and Narutos out there to watch. And like I mentioned in my earlier post, these individuals (I say "individuals" because I know some of you don't consider them to be "people") tend to be sub-purists who worship fansubs and prefer not to watch the legitimate DVD versions of anime even when they're available for free, which is why it doesn't make economic sense for companies to do the kinds of ultra-literal adaptations that others in this thread have been asking for. (Though I do advocate some "fansub-esque" changes to DVDs, this isn't the thread to discuss that.) And if it still seems like I'm being loony and illogical in defining "fan" in this way, note that AnimeNation's AskJohn, whose status & recognition in the online anime scene is on par with AnswerMan's, didn't have any problem using the same definition in this article. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Er... I hate to argue with this, but Anime News Network receives much, much, much more traffic than AnimeNation does, and while John used to be... I guess held in better regard than he is now, nowadays he's mostly infamous for being an admitted... well, do the research and you'll see what I mean. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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Now, did I really sound like I was saying that? Honestly, I know I'm not better than anyone. There isn't an elitist word in any of my posts.
That's a pretty great luxury to have. Most anime I watch is 'fleeting' ... i.e. either on TV, streaming online or rented on DVD. If I owned it instead, I could see making time to watch both versions.
Yeah, I've been sensing that. This is the first thread on this site I've ever participated in--and I've only been visiting the site for a few weeks. Context is always important, but reading recent Hey, Answerman! talkbacks in no way prepared me for this .... An aggressive or defensive reaction is one thing, though ... it's quite another to lump all pro-sub or pro-dub folks together and thus assume they think and behave certain ways.
Again, it's not so black and white. As I was musing, YTV could air a dub version of a show in primetime, then follow up with a sub version late at night. Little financial risk. And no one gets the shaft.
There's a pretty crucial difference between telling people their preferences are flawed and making an argument that the dubbing process is (still) flawed. I've done the latter, never the former. I've shown no disrespect for opposing arguments.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'intention' ... I mean, I wasn't trolling, but I meant what I said. Dubbing may make market sense, but I strongly feel it doesn't make any aesthetic sense. Some folks in the industry seem to agree. I've rented many foreign-language live-action films on DVD where there is no dub option, only subtitles. Dubbing may seem to them an unnecessary extra expense when, hey, their viewers can and will read. And want to hear the original actors' performances. You don't need to understand every word of Japanese to get the gist of many VAs' performances. To recognize patterns. To appreciate that certain vocal expressions 'work' in Japanese and have no English equivalent. I'm not throwing down any gauntlet by questioning the worth of dubbing ....[/i] |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Ah, well most everything I watch I purchase so that works out well for me.
Answerman threads always get a bit ugly, you should look up the Otakukin one from a few weeks ago, that was one of the messiest in recent history.
They could, but they're mostly thinking in dollars and cents, it'll need to be demosntrated to them that they have something to gain. Sure, there's little financial risk, but they're going to do what gives them the most financial gain. If they want to do that, I'm all for it, but realistically it would be hard to convince them to try it.
A crucial difference maybe, but a minor one. When you argue that something is flawed by nature obviously those who are advocates of it are going to take that personally as it's almost like saying their preference is naturally inferior. Especially when it's all a matter of opinion and your trash is their treasure.
Oh, I'm not implying you're trolling. I've met many a troll and you certainly aren't one of them. I was merely saying that regardless of whether you meant harm or not the statement itself was going to bring a pretty sharp defensive reaction by its nature alone.
Ah yes, but for me there's a significant difference between live action and animated. In animation you don't have the level of detail which makes mouth matching easier and even the japanese voices are themselves dubbed on to a character that is not them. In live action it's much harder to make it look natural but animation doesn't need to look natural because it isn't natural.
True, but there's certain aspects of a performance you just won't pick up on without knowledge of the language. You'll get the basics, of course, but certain linguistic complexities are really only noticed by those who fluently speak a language, and to them they're noticed subconsciously because generally they've been a part of their perception for their entire life. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Regardless of wether its true though, you can see where people think that when you say that you dont see any reason for Dubs to exist. Also, I respect your choice to prefer Subs. I dont intend to try and force people to convert to Dubs. However, I gotta say I cant repect your choice to completely refuse to watch Dubs ever. To me that just seems too unreasonable. So honestly, yeah i am going to try and convince you to give some Dubs a chance. On the general issue: There are pros and cons to both. Thats why it then comes down to personal opinion depending on which are most important to you. Sub: pro - It perserves the original form of the Anime - The japanese version is often produced of a higher quality than the dub con - Since we cant understand Japanese some elements of the Sub are lost on us - Literally translated subtitles often lose alot of the conotations and come out very bland - its easier to listen than to read subs Dub: pro - Reworked dubs often sound more natural - Its easier and seems more natural to hear what characters are saying intead of reading it con - It may change the wording around - Dubs are sometimes made with with a poorer quality I personally dont see modifying from the original as a big deal. I would rather see the best possible version and i really do find many subbed text to lacking. Thus I prefer Dubs. Still though, If I hear a Dub is bad, or a Subbed version is much better Im willing to watch it. |
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KAtchan15
 Posts: 460 Location: NYC |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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There is no reason it would be different. It would require them to get different masters, which would cost more money. As far as I know, they just repackaged the singles discs.
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NinjaUmbreon
 Posts: 43 |
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I prefer to watch my anime subtitled. I've seen some good dubs, Cowboy Bebop, and Bleach. But I guess there always room for improvement.
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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See. Obviously I haven't heard enough dubs. I can always pick out Koyasu. The only difficult role is Sakano/Gravitation where he mostly sounds very different, but if one pays attention, he'll hit a familiar tone. I can pick out Akira Ishida very often now. Ikue Ohtani's pretty easy because somewhere she hits that "pikachu" tone everyone on the planet has to know. I'm more hit & miss on everyone else-Miki can sound mushy so he can be confused with a couple other guys. Tomokazu Seki has that cute voice that's pretty distinctive, but he also has that deeper tone that's pretty generic (Touya, his Genshiken character). Kappei Yamaguchi has that pretty distinctive little boy voice, but his brash teen InuYasha/Ranma voice can sound like others. Hoshi's pretty distinctive. I can generally ballpark other voices (deep -Nakata or Kosugi, but I'm not as familiar with Ebara(Gai) who is also very deep, so he's the wild card). And trust me, there are very strange images that come to mind watching in Japanese (The red-clad Alucard voicing the red frog Giroro. Trunks voicing the light-blue frog Dororo. Pick from one of the other 250-odd roles Koyasu's played for the yellow frog Kururu, though FlameSoul & Ballardbird Lee's calmer moments come to mind. Ohtani always manages to hit that Pikachu tone somewhere so one always is reminded of a yellow rat, particularly with Chopper) I was watching Revenge of the Nerds last night, having told my daughter about it forever & I never noticed the obvious dub parts scattered thruout so I believe it might be part of the dubbing process. (Or I never really paid that much attention when I saw it back in the 1980's) I always check out the foley on films now to see if it's done by someone I recognize(Bang Zoom regulars were in Scooby-Doo 2-mostly as the ghosts) I like Mona Marshall's delivery-I have a problem telling her boy voice from Ian Hawk(Brianne Siddall), so I usually have to check the credits. Wolfram IS a petulant child. Petulant children in the US usually do sound like Bart Simpson, etc. Richard Hayworth/Ed Villa is usually the voice that bugs name because I can't place him until I see his name in the credits. In fact there are several similar VA's in English I keep mis-identifying until the credits roll. (Johnny Yong Bosch is one when he strays to a particular tone that sounds more similar to Villa's. Steve Cannon, maybe?) Kirk THornton, Wendee Lee, Crispin Freeman (love his voice), Michael McConnohie I can usually pick out. Wendee Lee can over-act at times, but I don't have too many problems with the other VA's. Of course I'm an old headbanger who picked bands for the singer, not the guitarists, so I lean toward voices I like & knowing John's voice from Paul's voice from George's voice from Ringo's(Yes, I know the Beatles aren't metal. I liked them when I was 12. Gene's voice from Paul's voice from Peter's voice from Ace's-ok?) Sean Connery may be old as dirt, but he still has a great voice that could make adult diapers sound like something everyone should have if they pegged him to pitch the product. |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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In both cases, lip flap is really a minor concern compared to the actual expression of the content. Dubbing in a live-action movie just carries that extra level of distraction, but basically suffers the same problems as dubbing in an animated production. We're at a point now where the North American audience at large has come to expect foreign-language films to be presented--at least on the big screen--with subtitles. Now, the audience for such films is fairly 'niche' compared to that for American blockbusters, but people have gotten out for the likes of 'Pan's Labyrinth' and 'Life is Beautiful.' I have no idea what percentage of the (larger) audience that watches such films on DVD chooses subtitles, too, and what percentage chooses the dub track. But as I was saying, a lot of DVDs like that carry no dub track; you read the subtitles or you don't get to understand the movie. This has forced some acceptance of subtitles, but certainly hasn't hurt these movies' popularity. I feel anime--at least for teenagers and adults--could potentially do this, too. I'm not advocating it to bother fans of dubbing, but it could be a natural maturing process for the industry. I mean, if a show on TV is really good, I'll watch that dub. So if a show on DVD is really good, I suspect dubbing fans would be willing to watch with subtitles if they were the only choice.
But that doesn't nullify the Japanese performance and necessitate it to be covered up with an English performance. Really, I haven't seen any evidence that an English dub can convey more meaning to an English-speaking audience than the original Japanese track with English subtitles. There's always going to be some level of alienation because it's a production from a different culture in a different (and much older) country and conceived in a different language, which will affect both the North American's reception of the dub and the sub. But the sub at least allows the best of both worlds. You get the Japanese actors' inflections with (hopefully) well-translated text. If the text alone would seem awkward, it's at least given some context by the VAs. (And it's great when DVD special features can include translators' notes.) With dubbing, that context is lost, which is why the result often sounds laughable. You have characters saying things in English that no one would ever say in English. That's why it's an extra level of artifice, removing the viewer even further from the original meaning. Certainly further than lip flap alone could do.
Last edited by TheVok on Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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Okay, first of all: I never completely refused to watch dubs ever. I pointed out that as a TV viewer, I'm pretty much bound to give some dubs a chance, even though it's not my natural preference. Secondly, when I do get to watch with subtitles, it's because I've rented a DVD. You say you respect my preference for subs, so I'm sure you can understand that when I'm watching a rented DVD and the clock is ticking, I'm going to watch only the subtitled version ... I'm not going to watch it again dubbed. (That said, I can think of one recent exception. My girlfriend and I had watched 'Fullmetal Alchemist' on TV, so it was dubbed. When we rented the subsequent movie, 'Conqueror of Shamballa,' we watched it first dubbed, then subtitled. In that case, the dub track provided more aural continuity with how we'd watched the show. But we still hated Al's voice.) Now, hopefully you can respect that. If not, I'd say you're the one being unreasonable here.
I agree with most of those, but I don't consider that last one a con at all. We've been reading for most of our life. It takes some attention, but as a result, I find it more engaging than, say, listening to a dead-serious bland English dub. The fact the dub's in my language doesn't make it easier for me to listen to; it just makes the VAs' flaws that much more obvious.
See, the thing with your second pro there is ... I'd say it seems more natural--far more natural--to hear a Japanese animated character speak Japanese-written dialogue in Japanese. The English dub, on the other hand, sounds utterly unnatural. That said, I also disagree with your first con. Any translation is going to change the wording around, whether it's subtitles or dubbing, so that's not an area where dubbing is at a disadvantage. (See? I don't unreasonably hate everything about dubbing!) |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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OK folks, gotta lock this one up. Thanks for reading.
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