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Yoda117



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 254
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:32 am Reply with quote
Darth_Blade wrote:
Quote:
There are surprisingly few examples of mainstream anime that cannot be purchased somewhere, in some fashion


Sure, I can purchase ADV releases easily enough - it involves some pretty simple actions with a credit card. But can I actually have the DVDs safely shipped to me? Not unless I shell out some more money for FedEx, DHL or whatever, and even then it would take 2 to 6 months to get to me. STILL surprised that some people prefer fansubs?


Or I can go to BB with a CC, Cash, or GC that someone got for me...

oh, and they give out 10% coupons every few weeks.

and I don't get charged for shipping (though I've never been charged for shipping at ADV's store either if memory serves me correctly... been a while). If it's something they have to order, they order it and I pick it up when it arrives (usually 1-3 business days).
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SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 424
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:42 am Reply with quote
10円 wrote:
raithnor wrote:
I'd like to know what people think about fansubbing items that never got a legitimate R1 release? Either because they were too old, the domestic license has lapsed, or for some reason couldn't be licensed in the US.


There are surprisingly few examples of mainstream anime that cannot be purchased somewhere, in some fashion, for legal consumption. Even my beloved Galaxy Express 999 (movie) from the 1970's can be purchased on DVD with English subtitles from Korea or you could buy a used VHS version here in the states, at which point I'm off your back even if you decide to watch a fansub version after making your purchase.


If you're willing to hunt, yes, most everything can be found somewhere and if you're willing to do your homework, you can be guaranteed that even in the shadiest places of e-commerce, you can get a decent, legitimate product. As the old adage goes, "Getting there is half the fun" and I actually enjoy some of the hunt involved with finding the unique pieces of my collection.

From my own personal perspective, not too long ago, there was fanboy outrage over Bandai Visual altering music in their Gunbuster release. I bought the DVD, mostly because I wanted Gunbuster, but I also went the extra mile and found a great deal on some used Japanese Gunbuster LDs* and bought those, just so I could see the un-altered scene.

*I also wanted the LDs, so I probably would have bought them anyway, but since I bought the R1 DVD, I wouldn't see any problem with hunting down an old fansub from when the license lapsed or a rip from another area.

One Piece is probably my favorite example of the 'shitty US release, I "need" fansubs' argument. I agree with 10円, if you back it up with some R2NTSC purchases (or, legit releases from another region which might be cheaper), I'm off your back keep going with the fansubs. I love OP, but I'm not willing to make the financial investment in Japanese OP DVDs, so I dropped the fansubs. There was life before One Piece and there's life after One Piece.

10円 wrote:
It's actually much simpler than all that though as most fansub fans don't appear to be folks who first scoured the earth for years and years looking for legitimate products to buy and then only grudgingly resorted to piracy when they could find no other alternative. No, they appear to be folks who can't be bothered to spend their own money unless they're forced to. Learning to be patient and then renting anime is the answer to 90% of pirates excuses, and importing covers another 9% in my view. For the remaining 1% of titles that cannot be purchased anywhere, in any form, at any price, at any time, you can feel free to fansub away so far as I'm concerned.


I would partially agree, too. I'm not going to get into statistics of who does what for what reason and they represent X percentage but if you're willing to look, you can find most anything anywhere. The actual amount of titles that are "fansub-only" are extremely rare, few and far between. Check out the Buried Treasure articles here on ANN; I think out of the just over a handful of articles, there's been only one thing that the chances of finding a legit copy to carry concurrently with a fansub are so small that a 'fansub-only' availability doesn't bother me.

Last edited by SalarymanJoe on Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raja



Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Posts: 61
Location: Tottori
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:24 pm Reply with quote
Yoda117 wrote:

HitokiriShadow wrote:
Yoda117 wrote:

Nearly all R2s have English subtitles (and Chinese, and Spanish, and many have Russian and German as well, a surprising number of eclectic titles had Arabic subs, which was rather impressive), which negates the argument regarding the Japanese DVDs.


Very, very few R2 anime DVDs have subtitles in other languages. I believe at least certain editions of Ghibli films do and a few select other movies, but that's about it.


After reading this, you're absolutely right... well, save for having received many of mine from a reps from Pioneer and Bandai. Still had the subs, and I'm more than willing to trust the legitimacy of these when they came from industry booths (though that's kinda rare to find them with subs... the teasers never do) or people who work for the company.
Now I'm curious...are the discs you're referring to promos to catch the interest of American companies? I've owned/rented several discs from these companies, with no sub/dub at all. Some didn't even have Japanese captions.

Care to list some titles? I could run to the local Tsutaya and see if the discs there have English subs. Or you could compare with this list from AnimeOnDVD.com.

I know for a fact that Pioneer/Geneon has actually REMOVED the English dub/subs from the latest DVD releases of the Tenchi Muyo! movies.
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ikillchicken
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 2517
Location: Vancouver - Go Canucks Go!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:34 pm Reply with quote
Darth_Blade wrote:
Quote:
You don't HAVE to watch something that you should be paying for if you can't or don't want to pay for it, and just a short time ago you couldn't watch something if you didn't pay for it.


But I want to watch it Razz

Quote:
Even though I watch fansubs myself and you obviously do, you can't say you have no option in the matter, as you *can* just not watch it if you can't pay for it.


And why should I not watch it? I want to, I can and there's no other viable option. So I choose subs.
Come on, imagine that you have 10 bucks. It's all the money you have left and your only other possessions are the clothes on your back. You're hungry. You'd go buy a loaf of bread or something, right? But you have the option to donate these ten bucks to charity and it's THE RIGHT thing to do, no? Wink


I too feel this way. I want to watch Anime, Im not always willing to pay for it. If i can get it for free, im not gonna sit back and not watch it. Also though you sorta stated it weird, I think i sorta agree with your example about Charity. If I can get the exact same benefits without paying, the question is: do I want to be charitable? In some cases i will, because I wanna help the industry. But sometimes I wont. I guess you could argue that these are different examples, as the Industry is entitled to the money. However I still think it comes down to "do you want to give up your money to help em?"
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:40 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:

I too feel this way. I want to watch Anime, Im not always willing to pay for it. If i can get it for free, im not gonna sit back and not watch it. Also though you sorta stated it weird, I think i sorta agree with your example about Charity. If I can get the exact same benefits without paying, the question is: do I want to be charitable? In some cases i will, because I wanna help the industry. But sometimes I wont. I guess you could argue that these are different examples, as the Industry is entitled to the money. However I still think it comes down to "do you want to give up your money to help em?"


Let me ask you folks something - say like tomorrow, fansubs were completely wiped out and were no longer available. If you wanted to watch anime, you'd have to either catch it on cable or pay $3 per episode to download it, or buy DVDs.

Would you stay in the hobby? Would you still watch anime?
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:47 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Darth_Blade wrote:
Quote:
You don't HAVE to watch something that you should be paying for if you can't or don't want to pay for it, and just a short time ago you couldn't watch something if you didn't pay for it.


But I want to watch it Razz

Quote:
Even though I watch fansubs myself and you obviously do, you can't say you have no option in the matter, as you *can* just not watch it if you can't pay for it.


And why should I not watch it? I want to, I can and there's no other viable option. So I choose subs.
Come on, imagine that you have 10 bucks. It's all the money you have left and your only other possessions are the clothes on your back. You're hungry. You'd go buy a loaf of bread or something, right? But you have the option to donate these ten bucks to charity and it's THE RIGHT thing to do, no? Wink


I too feel this way. I want to watch Anime, Im not always willing to pay for it. If i can get it for free, im not gonna sit back and not watch it. Also though you sorta stated it weird, I think i sorta agree with your example about Charity. If I can get the exact same benefits without paying, the question is: do I want to be charitable? In some cases i will, because I wanna help the industry. But sometimes I wont. I guess you could argue that these are different examples, as the Industry is entitled to the money. However I still think it comes down to "do you want to give up your money to help em?"


I want a new car, but short of buying it myself, it isn't going ot happen.
I want to win the lottery, but I never win when I play, so I just don't play.
Want in one hand, you know what in the other.

How is it charity to pay the people who created the thing for their work?
Put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if you wrote the next hot bigseller & some idiots decided to post the thing for free downloading so you don't get your sales?

All the agreements I've seen pertaining to being allowed to tape shows for one's PERSONAL use state exactly that--PERSONAL. NOWHERE have I ever seen it stated one can post it on the net for thousands of people you will never, ever meet to download. So fansubs are technically illegal product.

I used to work as a general info operator for local government & I'd love it when people called about a ticket-criminal, civil, traffic, or small claims ct? ALmost always if it wasn't a traffic ticket, they'd go for civil or small claims-"My dog was off his leash" That's criminal & so many would be so shocked "I'm a criminal?" You broke a law, you got a ticket. Tickets are criminal or traffic.
No one thinks of themselves as a criminal. Even my convicted felons have their "I never raped or killed anyone" attitude.
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Darth_Blade



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Saint-Petersburgh, Russia
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if you wrote the next hot bigseller & some idiots decided to post the thing for free downloading so you don't get your sales?


Put yourself in my shoes. I want to watch a popular anime show, but big daddy ADV\Viz\whatever tells me to either GTFO or pay a ridiculous amount of money and MAYBE get what I paid for within three months and in working condition, just because I apparently live in a third-world country. I'm a exaggerating a bit, yes, but the point is, I am a customer and I only spend my money on offers that are attractive. Foreign licensors fail to make me an attractive offer - they don't get my money. Local licensors keep dropping quality and raising prices as the demand increases - they don't get my money.

Quote:
No one thinks of themselves as a criminal.


I don't like you. You just watch yourself. I'm a wanted man. I have a death warrant in twelve systems.
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Steroid



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 324
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:49 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Let me ask you folks something - say like tomorrow, fansubs were completely wiped out and were no longer available. If you wanted to watch anime, you'd have to either catch it on cable or pay $3 per episode to download it, or buy DVDs.

Would you stay in the hobby? Would you still watch anime?

Yes and no. I would probably still hit a con or two, maybe watch it at a friend's. I would avoid watching it on TV since if I enjoy a dub I'm aware that I'm going to have to pay for the sub and I don't want to do that. If I became aware of a show that seemed absolutely perfect for me (say, an anime where fansubbers, having lost their ability to fansub, engaged in a violent takeover of the industry and forced their subs over the air. Anime smile), I might even buy a DVD. But 999 times out of 1000, I'd say, it's not worth it. And I'd no longer go specifically looking for anime to watch.
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Keonyn
Moderator


Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 3329
Location: Bloomington, MN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:05 pm Reply with quote
So in other words unless the industry exists as your slaves performing their work without payment you would walk away? It's amazing really this Steroidcentric utopia you've invented for yourself in your head that you fight so hard for which seems to deny the rights of all others aside from yourself. Honestly, it's amazing anyone even has the capacity to either be so delusional or completely ignorant of even the most basics of economics and society.

Heck, now it's even to the point that you'd only watch an anime as the result of a violent takeover, then you'd throw your support at it because it only threw their subs on the air, in this case ignoring dub fans and again demonstrating that Steroids magical world only caters to himself. Seriously guy, just wake up already, it's amazing how many times you practically declare yourself the voice of reason and morality and then demonstrate that your reason only goes so far as to benefit you. Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously anymore?

And on a side note, did I call it or what? I all but said Steroid would be on this like white on rice ... so predictable.
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Steroid



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 324
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:21 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
So in other words unless the industry exists as your slaves performing their work without payment you would walk away? It's amazing really this Steroidcentric utopia you've invented for yourself in your head that you fight so hard for which seems to deny the rights of all others aside from yourself. Honestly, it's amazing anyone even has the capacity to either be so delusional or completely ignorant of even the most basics of economics and society.

Noo. . . I wouldn't. I would curtail. Indeed, cutting off fansubs would probably result in less payment from me, since I'd no longer be buying manga and posters and plushies. But even disregarding that, why is it wrong to walk away from a deal because you don't think you're getting enough value from it?

Quote:
Heck, now it's even to the point that you'd only watch an anime as the result of a violent takeover, then you'd throw your support at it because it only threw their subs on the air, in this case ignoring dub fans and again demonstrating that Steroids magical world only caters to himself.

Actually, I was projecting an anime in which that happened, in an attempt to be humorously ironic. I'm not advocating it IRL--even in response to a fansub cutoff. I was trying to give an example of an anime that would be perfectly catered to my tastes. Is it also wrong to think about what I want to see in anime?

Quote:
Seriously guy, just wake up already, it's amazing how many times you practically declare yourself the voice of reason and morality and then demonstrate that your reason only goes so far as to benefit you. Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously anymore?

As I've asked before, if you want me to take others into account in my reasoning, what's in it for me? And if nothing's in it for me, then aren't you doing the same thing in reverse: never considering what another (me) wants, only what you do?

And it's not the people who don't take me seriously to whom I'm speaking.
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Dardre



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 78
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:48 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Let me ask you folks something - say like tomorrow, fansubs were completely wiped out and were no longer available. If you wanted to watch anime, you'd have to either catch it on cable or pay $3 per episode to download it, or buy DVDs.

Would you stay in the hobby? Would you still watch anime?


I would, no question. Fansubs don't interest me anyway. I knew anime would be an expensive hobby when I bought my first VHS tape. In my opinion, fansubs have done what they have said they wanted to do; that is build a demand for anime that would get American companies interested in buying the license and releasing anime in the US in large quantities.

As for the idea of paying to download anime, I like that idea. Though I would prefer if they had a way to buy the DVD online, and while you waited for it to arrive you could download the episodes you bought the DVD for.
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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1004
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:13 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Let me ask you folks something - say like tomorrow, fansubs were completely wiped out and were no longer available. If you wanted to watch anime, you'd have to either catch it on cable or pay $3 per episode to download it, or buy DVDs.

Would you stay in the hobby? Would you still watch anime?


Excellent question. The answer from me would be an emphatic "yes" - IF by this you mean you would be providing the same variety of programming choices that are available through fansubs. It really does not matter if we are talking about anime or anything else. Make the product I want to have available at a reasonable (one which enables you to recoup your investment plus a decent profit margin to reward your efforts) market price, and do not require me to wade through swamps and jump through flaming hoops in order to get it. If you do that I will be quite happy to give you my money, and as far as I'm concerned there would no longer be any need or justification for fansubs.

Cable TV? Already paying for it now. I'd be happy to pay extra to get anime channels if they were offered. Pay-per-view would be fine with me too - just make it available.

Pay to download? High-speed downloads, no need to dedicate all my upload bandwidth for hours on end, no need to have (and update) multiple players and bushels of codec variations in order to keep up with the wonkiness of the week someone decided to try out? For $3.00 per episode? Bring it on.

Buying DVDs? As I've already said, money (within limits) is not the issue for me - the issue is availability. Since the first of the year I have purchased or currently have on pre-order:
    The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya vol 1 limited addition box
    Utawarerumono - vols 1- 3 (box is ugly, so did not buy it)
    Karin vol 1 plus box
    Moon Phase vols 1 - 5 plus box
    Scrapped Princess: Anime Legends - Complete Collection
    Tenchi Muyo! Ryo Ohki OVA vol 3 + collector box
    Samurai 7 - The complete series box set
    Strawberry Marshmallow vol 1-3 plus box

I've also purchased R2s in the past for some series that I really loved but felt would never be licensed for R1, such as: Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu; REC; and Lamune.

And I guarantee that if someone makes any or all of these series available today, I will have an order placed for them no later than tomorrow night.
    Air
    Aishiteruze Baby
    Bokura ga Ita
    Ghost Hunt
    Honey and Clover
    Kanon
    Lamune
    Mahoraba ~Heartful days~
    Nodame Cantible
    Ouran High School Host Club
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Trivial



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 58
Location: Ottawa, ON
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:24 pm Reply with quote
I am much more of a news junkie so it is comparable to anime. I read the news online; Often I buy a newspaper. I frequent coffee shops and read a paper that a patron has left behind.

Anime is only more expensive. I'd rather spend my $10 bucks renting an anime than watching a junk Hollywood movie. I watch anime for free online, I go over to my friends house who has a huge anime selection and I will now start buying my own anime.

I will never only watch fansubs.
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Keonyn
Moderator


Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 3329
Location: Bloomington, MN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:35 pm Reply with quote
Steroid wrote:
Noo. . . I wouldn't. I would curtail. Indeed, cutting off fansubs would probably result in less payment from me, since I'd no longer be buying manga and posters and plushies. But even disregarding that, why is it wrong to walk away from a deal because you don't think you're getting enough value from it?


Because apparently free for all is all the equals a deal for you. It's wrong because it doesn't consider all the facts and ideals, only those that selfishly cater to your personal desires. You can walk away if you like, but you aren't and won't, we all know that.

Quote:
As I've asked before, if you want me to take others into account in my reasoning, what's in it for me? And if nothing's in it for me, then aren't you doing the same thing in reverse: never considering what another (me) wants, only what you do?


Nope, because like it or not I even take you in to consideration. Simple reality is though that what you want dismisses everyone else and their rights so your wants become impractical and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. What you want isn't realistic, to give in to where you'd like to see things would mean giving so many others and the industry itself the shaft, all those with the abilities in the talent all for the sake of a freeloader. It's impractical, so whether I take you in to consideration or not doesn't change the end result.

Quote:
And it's not the people who don't take me seriously to whom I'm speaking.


Not true, because you're responding to those who obviously don't, like myself, therefore you are in fact speaking to us.
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Mephistophilus



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 200
Location: Fresno, CA, United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:

I too feel this way. I want to watch Anime, Im not always willing to pay for it. If i can get it for free, im not gonna sit back and not watch it. Also though you sorta stated it weird, I think i sorta agree with your example about Charity. If I can get the exact same benefits without paying, the question is: do I want to be charitable? In some cases i will, because I wanna help the industry. But sometimes I wont. I guess you could argue that these are different examples, as the Industry is entitled to the money. However I still think it comes down to "do you want to give up your money to help em?"


Let me ask you folks something - say like tomorrow, fansubs were completely wiped out and were no longer available. If you wanted to watch anime, you'd have to either catch it on cable or pay $3 per episode to download it, or buy DVDs.

Would you stay in the hobby? Would you still watch anime?


Absolutely. I'd just buy it, as I do like anime and I wouldn't let money stop me unless I was totally broke. I do watch fansubs, but that's only a matter of convenience until I can pay for it (I may be one of the few that actually does this, but I do keep a list of everything I watch in fansub and plan to buy it all-I try to keep my fansub list very small because of this), and if they went away I wouldn't be angry or anything. I'd just have to wait for a Stateside release, and that's not a big issue for me. It's one of my primary hobbies now, so even if I had to pay for everything I watched immediately it wouldn't be a big deal.
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