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Poll: What do you think of Moe?

In the 1950's there was a little something called censorship, whereby material that could be considered "corrupting the youth" by glorifying behaviour that acted countrary to the moral status quo was not permitted to air on television. Censorship has largely given way to corporate greed, and moderate morality has deteriorated because of apathy or hyper-sensitivity.

Banning visual media isn't required, and jailing people for no crime isn't legal; all we need is a crack-down on what is acceptable material.

The real danger of "moe", "loli", "shota", "traps" and the whatnot is that like an annoying meme it's imitated so many times people lose sense of reality because they've been dulled by the sheer amount of caricaturizations, losing a sense of barriers between acceptable behaviour in anime or in the corpreal world.

Mirrinus wrote:

Hmm, how odd. Here we are quoting stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Lucky☆Star as pure moe shows, and I'm having a very difficult time seeing your point. What describes the cast of these shows better? "Weak, sensitive, and totally dependant on men," or "independent, strong-willed, and capable individuals"?

I can't comment since I haven't seen either nor do I have access to either, but Lucky☆Star was based on an eroge so I could probably imagine with some accuracy the kinds of "moe" it proports. Not positive at all.

Azumanga is one I really know nothing about, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that the "moe" portrayed by the characters is more positive than the misogynous drivel most weeaboo are trying to pass off as a legitimate pastime. I'd argue that to be progressive, but there is potential for abuse in the doujin world; provided that kind of "bastardization" doesn't get spread beyond the doujin world, it's relatively benign, though I'd feel uncomfortable because of the popularity of doujin in Japan and its growing presence in the ESW.

Can you show me where it says this? From my understanding, Lucky Star is based on a series of 4komas and not an eroge.

So you want to go back to the way the entertainment world was in the 1950's? Wow, that'd be fun.

Well, according to you, I'm stupid anyway and a future child molestor to boot, so I guess I should bow to your superior intellect and mighty vision of the future. Yes, let's all go back to the way things were in the 1950's! (Say, didn't virtually all of the pro-civil rights and women's equality movements start in the 70's? Hm, 1950's entertainment would be mostly whilte male dominated stories wouldn't they?)

Why don't you try living in a country that heavily censors it's media for a while and let us know how you like it.

So to protect society, we must ensure that all entertainment promotes only pro-social activies! Yes, I see the light! We must all learn to think, act, and look the same so that no one ever feels inferior or superior to anyone else. What a wonderful world it will be when the human race stagnants and becomes as interesting as a piece of dry toast.

After all, we know that prior to the invention of pornographic and violent entertainment there was no crime and everyone lived in perfect harmony.

I wonder whether or not there exists any anime at all that doesn't have some sort of distasteful doujin based off of it.

Tell me, what doesn't have potential for abuse in the doujin world? The doujin world is limited only by a person's imagination, and that's not something that's easy to overestimate.

However, I disagree with you in that you are trying to generalize everything that could be called moe by just this one definition. If a moe show is one that contains women who are "weak, sensitive, and totally dependant on men," then using your argument I'd like to make a case for how Mushishi would be more moe than Azumanga Daioh. I mean, that girl in episode 6 fits that description better than most eroge adaptation characters, IMHO. This discussion isn't going to get anywhere if we can't even agree on a definition. Actually, I didn't expect this to get anywhere in the first place...

Sure, I'm not trying to advocate for anachronistic practices like relegating women to being second-class citizens, but since when was being sensitive percieved as a vice?

Relative to other first world countries, the United States is the most violent country on the planet, which I do not think was the case prior to the liberalization of what was acceptable to watch on television.

I'm repeating myself, but in the West "moe" is very subjective, but Japan is trying to objectivize the definition such that everyone has the same idea of what moe is. The problem is, the kind of moe being propogated through the hordes of popular media dedicated to it is the kind of moe I'm taking a stand against.

If "SaiMoe" is of any value in an argument like this, characters like the ones in Azumanga Daioh do relatively poorly or aren't nominated at all.

I apologize for the topicality confusion, so please acknowledge the context in which I am using the word "sensitive"; I'm implying melodrama and outrageously exaggerated sensitivity, rather than sensitivty in the sense of acknowledging the dispositions of other people.

Consider my terminology in this sense to be equivalently extreme.

ZaWarudo wrote:

You were the one with a Mizui Kaou avatar, right? I love his stuff.

That was me, yes. The source was identified, I think by you actually, so that's why I switched; to let the game begin anew. (That and this avatar came out WAY better than the previous one.)

It's always struck me as both fascinating and a tad sad that some of my favorite artists only seem to draw hentai of one variety or another. Not that I think there's anything wrong with that, but it does make it rather difficult to say "hey, check out this guy's work. Don't you just love the simple, yet engaging character designs!" to someone who has a stricter view of such materials, especially in regards to lolicon hentai.

One thing that is nice about moe is that you can show someone something like Strawberry Marshmallow without feeling like you'll automatically be labeled a perverted freak. You might be anyway, but it's not a given like with various hentai or even Yuri or Yaoi stories that don't have graphic sex.

I've seen something from just about every genre known to anime fandom at this point, with the exception of Yaoi, so I've got a fairly open mind about everything. I don't judge graphical fiction on a different moral scale than any other fiction, so nothing particularly bothers me about any genre. (Plus, I judge hentai on a completely different scale from non-hentai since hentai is generally more concerned with sex than story.)

Moe I like most because of the postive emotions the characters evoke from me, like wanting to rescue them from their bad situations or just give them a hug. As I stated before, I very much want to play the role of the hero, so characters that need help appeal to me. The art styles are typically cute which I like. I also like the variety of stories that can effectively use a moe character as a lead.

I think everything I wrote made sense.

Richard J. wrote:

So you want to go back to the way the entertainment world was in the 1950's? Wow, that'd be fun.

Yeah, I know everyone looks at the '50s in rose-tinted glasses, but there were SOME pluses to that era. People knew their neighbors and the world was a lot safer, for instance.

Richard J. wrote:

After all, we know that prior to the invention of pornographic and violent entertainment there was no crime and everyone lived in perfect harmony.

Relative to other first world countries, the United States is the most violent country on the planet, which I do not think was the case prior to the liberalization of what was acceptable to watch on television.

Yeah right, so liberal that high school students couldn't even recite The Vagina Monologues in the public.

Furudanuki wrote:

And your imagination would be wrong. I don't know where your information about the Lucky☆Star anime came from, but you probably should start taking anything else from that source with a large grain of salt. Lucky☆Star is based on a 4-panel comic strip serialized in Kadokawa Shoten's Comptiq magazine. There is a video game called Lucky ☆ Star Moe Drill that is also based on the comic, but it runs on the Nintendo DS game system and could not be considered a "eroge" by any reasonable definition of the term. A second game (also for the Nintendo DS) is scheduled to come out later this year. Both games are rated "All ages". Description from the wiki: "The genre of the first game is homework drills. It tests the player on various subjects and memorizations. The player's main opponent is beating other characters in quizzes. There is also a "Drama ☆ Mode" where the game plays like a mini-adventure game as you make your way to Akihabara. Math quizzes and mini games (about five in all) pop up as you play along."

We can always count on weeaboo to have perfect information on everything at any time. What would we do without them?

It's not like I can use Wikipedia on this PC anymore anyway. >_>

Uh huh, not sure where you went with that.

Relative to other first world countries, the United States is the most violent country on the planet, which I do not think was the case prior to the liberalization of what was acceptable to watch on television.

You know, some people will never make this connection no matter how often you try to point it out to them.

Well this thread went off in a different direction than I anticipated. With so many people voting it's a shame more folks didn't come on here to explain their various positions. In any case, can we at least keep the term "moe" in the purely non-sexual realm and use "loli-" for everything beyond? The ever more blurry definitions are a little disconcerting to me.

Well this thread went off in a different direction than I anticipated. With so many people voting it's a shame more folks didn't come on here to explain their various positions.

As for accessibility of violent entertainment and firearms, I really recommend you go watch Bowling for Columbine for an explanation -- at least, for an alternative point of view.

How many new anime this spring season focus on such a kind of moe? I can only think of two off of the top of my head, and neither are likely to go mainstream or garner that much attention. This is opposed to the eleven or so mecha shows...I'll save my rant on mecha for another time. Sure, if you try really, really hard, you may be able to find such victimization for pretty much any show. But hey, I'm willing to bet I can do the same for male characters as well...would that be OK?

Guess again. Osaka of Azumanga Daioh once took second place overall in the SaiMoe tournament, beaten only by Sakura Kinomoto of CardCaptor Sakura. Neither really matches your description of moe. How many past winners (or even quarter finalists) match your description? In the most recent SaiMoe tournament, Yuki beat out Mikuru of SHnY. Yuki's about as weak as Superman and as sensitive as a doorknob.

I see your point, but if your definition of "moe" really does encompass only such extremes, then I'm not sure if I can agree with you that this is becoming more common and that this is indeed the primary type of moe that's being pushed by anime studios.

I acknowledge that this is a potential threat, but I don't see it as the general trend, and I make it a point never to turn the exception into the rule. That's probably why I don't think of moe the same way as you do, no?

I think, actually, that people don't look at the '50s with rose-tinted glasses nowadays. (Is that what you meant?) People are very condescending and morally superior towards the '50s all because, yes, America had a white-centric attitude, and yes, we were all afraid of the Communists and gays, and so they laugh at the people of the '50s like they were simple-minded cavemen.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that in my post I did not cast aspersions toward or make assumptions about you personally. I assumed that you had been given erroneous information specifically regarding Lucky☆Star, and were in all innocence presenting that incorrect information in a public forum as part of the supporting evidence for your argument. I also did not make any attempt to shoot down or ridicule the overall viewpoint you were espousing, nor did I offer my own opinions. I simply referenced the correct information for the record. If you want to cite examples of eroge-based anime, or anime that feature weak, dependant female characters of the sort you describe then a little research will provide you with several. Or you could simply pose the question here and wait for some nice "weeaboo" to respond.

Malintex Terek: About putting words in your mouth, I probably shouldn't have done that, but you were essentially putting thoughts into my head by claiming that moe fans are walking the road to raping kids. If you knew me personally, you'd know that I'd rather die than harm a child.

You suggested that the media needed to be censored in order to protect society from it's bad influence. I made a statement intended to express the view that such action would curtail creativity and ultimately harm society. Basically I was just trying to say I think you're view on censorship isn't logical as the only way to actually eliminate entirely the threat of negative influence is with a complete removal of all objectionable material so that all entertainment media serves only to promote a pro-social viewpoint.

There are other possible causes for violence in the United States. One is that we have an excess of weapons readily avaiable to the general public. Another possible cause is that American's have a higher degree of mobility and freedom than any other nation, meaning that it is very easy for people to disappear or to be a mobile predator. We encourage the free discourse of diverse ideas, creating numerous social conflicts. Oh, and we have laws in place that make it much harder to gather evidence of crimes than other countries as well, meaning that it's easier for a criminal to remain free here than it is in other countries. The United States is also one of the most religous countries in the free world, which some have suggested is the cause of many of our social problems.

Maybe our media is the cause of all our problems. Or maybe it's something else that's been studied. There could be a cause no one's considered that's the real culprit. The evidence supporting the idea that our entainment industry is to blame has not proven the case yet.

For the record, there's a lot I dislike about the entertainment industry of the United States. A large part of why I've embraced anime and manga so completely is my aggravation with story-telling in this country. However, I don't think censorship will help anything. Plenty of countries censor things worse than the United States does and while they are less violent, they also tend to be very restrictive societies overall. We can't even have a calm debate about the value of a national ID card without people screaming "1984!" Do you really think people would respond well to aggressive censorship?

There's more anime produced this year than we can take into account, such that only the high profile titles like Hayate with potential for fansubbing are getting recognized. For every one major show like that, I'll bet there are many more generic knock-offs that propogate negative stereotypes on women.

I mean, one title that comes to recent memory that idealizes several of these stereotypes is The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and another series, Evangelion, is getting some new movies.

I was actually referring to the 2006 tournament, but I forgot 2002 was an all-time one. Anyway, Sakura's defining traits are her young body, love/concern and her unusual relationship with Tomoyo. Nanoha and Suseiseki share these traits in common, with respectively different "partners" so to say (I haven't seen RM or MLGNA's either).

I'm not sure if it's the anime studios insomuch as the writers of the material who get their stuff adapted into anime; if the source is tainted, the poison will filter throughout the whole system.

Well, I derived the trend by looking at popular manga and taking note if I see "moe" stereotypes in theme, and compare them to manga/anime of several years ago. That is to say, Dragonball had a lot less moe/fanservice than Yu Yu Hakusho, which in turn had less moe/fanservice than One Piece.

If our country were fiercely efficacious and educated, there might be little to fear from persuasive media, but not where people are trained from a young age to just be ravenous rats consuming and regurgitating the jargon of what is sewn in their minds.