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ArielTsuki
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 176
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 Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:34 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | DmonHiro wrote: | | To all you paranoid people: I have read the first three volumes (yes I know japanese) and let me tell you this: THERE IS A STORY....and a pretty good one at that. It does not really start until volume three but there are hint at a bigger picture starting the second half of the second volume. Also...I have a feeling that this manga will be going in a darker direction as it advances (from what I've seen in volume three.....for example...there is a scene in witch Rin is tempted to push Houin down the stairs but decided against it at the last moment, Rin's cousin had some history with her mom and we also got a small glimpse as to why Rin is behaving like she is). So yes...there is a story and it is getting more and more interesting |
Yeah.
There's a STORY to most porn.
Pool guy shows up to clean the pool.
Deep Throat-oo poor girl.
Behind the Green Door.
They all HAVE a plot. An excuse to move the story from titilate 1 to tittlate 2, etc. And hopefully all stories get better as they move along. If not they get cancelled.
You know, I read the Satanic Bible. It doesn't, as most Christians will have you believe, extoll the virtues of sacrificing children & animals to Satan-quite the opposite. Doesn't mean I expect it to fill space on the shelf of an elementary school library or even most High School libraries. That killer in Virginia wrote plays. I'm sure they had a plot.
ArielTsuki, I KNOW Soubi kissed Ritsuka, Someone(you? Not going to search) insisted it wasn't a family kiss-it was much more. Really? Not drawn in the manga. One can't tell if it was a deep throat kiss(doubt it) or a quick peck. And if you're reading it, you know that, as Yoji pointed out, Soubi has no will of his own. Like a dog ne needs to be ordered. It's what makes him a perfect fighter unit.
The male Zero unit is bonded, but they haven't lost their ears, so they haven't lost their virginity. We're getting indications Seimei was an rotten person, though a wonderful, loving brother to Ritsuka. Obviously if Soubi comments oen could wait outside Seimei's door for 1000 yrs & he wouldn't talk thast's how shut out Soubi felt by Seimei's treatment of him.
I was wrong. I have Negima 1,7 & 8. Read them again JUST FOR YOU> If you can't tell the difference between what's going on there where we basically see standard fanservice on a bunch of girls 14 going on 15 (most of the birth dates are 1988, The copyright is 2003, thus as the year progresses various girls would be turning 15) & an 8 yr old, I can't help you. In vol 7 & 8, only one gal seemed serious about wanting Negi. Eva's a vampire. She may look 5, but she could be 5000. As a magical being, do our age rankings even count? It takes a dragon 100-1000 years to mature, depending on the culture. If I had the other volumes, I'd know how old Eva is, but have wee seen how vamps age in Negi's universe? Are they considered children until they're 100 yrs of? Do they mature in 10 yrs? If it the Japanese version where they have some semblance of normal maturing & just suck blood, or is Eva dead like Alucard?
And then there's the whole incubus/succubus/vampire sexual context. Vamps are usually considered pretty sensual creatures.
It is on the radar. As I took my sister-no interest in the manga/anime community whatsoever-shopping today (she's American comic/sci-fi), the minute I mentioned Nymphet, she knew what I was taking about, so it's not just in our little community. SOmeone, even if it's the American comics/sci-fi community has reported on this little controversy.
Your little boat has taken a fatal blow & is going down. Possibly if you're lucky someone will agree to save it from sinking at the last minute. Stike your colors, take out a bank loan & start your own publishing company to bring this & all the other worthy titles that have been overlooked over here. If you're so insensed over Loveless & Negima, go ahead & lob a few cannonballs at them--contact the media or their publishers. Maybe you can get them cancelled in the name of fairness, |
It happens in Vol 1... but you're missing out Vol 2-5, which happens alot. You don't really read Negima, so you wouldn't know.
And for the NTH time, no one kiss someone on the FIRST DAY we met as a familal kiss, on the lips. Besides, while kissing someone on the lips either they're lovers or family is normal in some western cultures, the same is not true in Japanese culture. The Japanese believe that kissing on the lips is a SEXUAL or ROMANTIC gesture (http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~melmoth/japan/k.html#kissing), and very private in that it was a social taboo to kiss on the lips in public until very recently. Anime and manga reflect this in when a stranger, usually foreign or transferred from a foreign country, kisses the character on the lips, the character usually chalks it up as the Western customs. The Japanese take kissing on the lips a very serious issue and a romantic gesture. Thus why Ritsuka was mad at Soubi for kissing him when Soubi promised that he wouldn't do a thing to him.
Also, read the Breathless battle again and see Soubi pretty much French kissed Ritsuka. If that's a familal kiss, then I don't what you tell you. It's pretty fricking obvious that Soubi DO NOT see Ritsuka in a familal way. He's ordered to love Ritsuka by Seimei, he did NOT expect that he would've love Ritsuka THAT much (which is in Vol. 2 or 3),. Geez, even Kio and the rest of Soubi's classmates don't think he has a familial bond with Ritsuka at all.
Plus, you talk about how the Satanic Bible don't say how they don't say that they tell you to kill, kill, kill. BUT YOU NEVER READ KOJIKA. Everytime Rin propostioned Aoki-sensei, it was either with a very threating and tense air or teasing, and never in the mood that it can titilate someone unless they had that intention for it in the first place. And judging from that one time I've read a shota manga (to see what was all the fuss was about. I'm too curious for my own damn good sometimes..), the atmosphere and how it plays out was VERY, VERY different from KoJika. Like you would never call Negima hentai despite its massive fanservice because all of the sexual jokes and mishap were in a humorous light. Also, we have to know that KoJika is a PARODY OF LOLICON titles as well, is there going to be lolicon fanservice? Yeah, but is it pointless? NO.
Also, you forgot what exactly lolicon is. No matter how OLD the female character is, it's matters when they have a CHILDLIKE appearance. Eva is in her childlike appearance all of Negima so far I've read (up to Volume 11) except for a few panels. And there's plently of fanservice involving Eva since she's a semi-regular character.
Am I calling for the cancellation of Negima or Loveless. NO. I'm just calling out BS that's on this board for being paranoid about a title that subject matter is not new in America and repeated opinions that were easily debunked of a manga that they didn't read.
Last edited by ArielTsuki on Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:46 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:42 pm |
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| Daemonblue wrote: | | Hate to say this, but just because your little sister knows. |
I'm the baby sister at 47. My OLDER sister is 48.
My point was I only said the name & someone with no interest in the genre ws aware of it. My family doesn't share my interest in anime & manga. My parents grew up in WWII. so it's not uncommon for them to spew out the anti-Japanese propoganda they grew up on
| Daemonblue wrote: | | Also, I love how you relate the story to Nymphet to that of porn even though that is entirely not the case. Honestly, each post your making is making the hole you're digging a little bit deeper. |
| Quote: | | To all you paranoid people: I have read the first three volumes (yes I know japanese) and let me tell you this: THERE IS A STORY....and a pretty good one at that. |
| Quote: | | The fact that there is a story at all, whether it is a poor one or not |
| Quote: | | You CAN'T judge the title from a few out of context pages and that scene that the Pres of SSE thought was highly imappropiate (which is pretty much BS since Volume 1 had worse stuff than that.) |
As I said, even porn has a plot
SPELLING IT OUT
even though Nymphet has a story, it doesn't make it more valid because pretty much every book written has some sort of plot.
Some are better written than others, but the argument alone that having a plot makes a story valid is ridiculous.
When I was 5 I wrote a story about a caterpiller. It had a plot. Yeah, it was very simple & sucked. but it had a plot. I'm not goint to take it to a publisher & order them to publish it.
| Quote: | | I guess I missed where blackmail and forced groping are okay as long as the girl is 16. |
You're in the wrong fandom.
If you want groping & blackmail removed, you've just killed half(at least) of the titles out there.
Just watched Master Roshi, for the umteenth time, cop a feel off Bulma. Yes, by Season 1 of DBZ she's an adult, but this went on in DB. Peeking at her. feeling her butt. Goku pants her in one memorable ep. Then Yamcha turns into the aerobic-watching perv. Happosai all over Ranma in female form. (In fact, it seems every "Old master" is a perv)
Yes, my standards are a bit more lax than other parents of teens. I actually take the time to WATCH stuff to form an opinion whether my teen should have it rather than relying on a rating some idiot slapped on it. The 3 volumes of Negima I have are nowhere near as bad as Happosai in Ranma.
And as an adult, I have to accept what the Seven Seas adults have decided.
Scatilations/buying it in Japanese if you speak Japanese, somone else licensing it, or all of the disappointed fans banding together to form a company to publish it are about the options you have left.
Don't take it out on the rest of us who accept the decision. |
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Daemonblue
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:54 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | Daemonblue wrote: | | Hate to say this, but just because your little sister knows. |
I'm the baby sister at 47. My OLDER sister is 48.
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Sorry bout that, thought you said little sister and not just sister. Either way, the fact remains that you still haven't read it so you can't really use that "porn also has a plot" defense. So far I found the plot rather interesting, but are my tastes the same as yours? I definately hope not cause I'm an 18 year old male and you're a 47 year old female, there's an almost guaranteed difference intastes with that kind of gap. However, I don't believe people have the right to pass judgement over something that they haven't even read, and so far the only one against this manga that I've seen comments from is Zac, even though he does seem to defend older teens getting sexually harassed (Mikuru much?). |
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chrono2005
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:05 pm |
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| Quote: | | 2) How will this affect the manga market as a whole? My conclusion: I don't know; I can not predict the future any better than anyone else can, but I certainly acknowledge the possibility, however remote, that the Nymphet release could become a poster child by the mainstream media for everything that is wrong with manga. I love the manga industry and I delight in my job, and I would rather not take the risk of causing problems that could undermine this industry, especially in light of the escalating media scrutiny we have been getting on this title. (After Publisher's Weekly contacted me for an interview on Nymphet, it almost seemed like a matter of time before FOX or CNN picked up the story. Call me paranoid, but it's not outside the realm of possibility…) |
BEYOND EPIC! This is only what nearly EVERYONE who was complaining about it was saying to begin with! But at least he did a reasonable job spinning it into something that he could use to recoup and look marginally intelligent on the subject.
HOWEVER, after throughly going through the first 5 chapters of Volume 1 I found this specifically questionable scenes:
Vol. 1
ch 1, pg 7, pg 21-22
ch 2, pg 33, pg 41 & 43, pg 51, pg 54
ch 3, pg 59 & 60, pg 72-73
ch 4, pg 83, pg 89, pg 91 & 92, pg 100-102, pg 106
ch 5, pg 120, pg 131-132
Now because many of these scenes seem terrifically prosaic in nature, this is solely due to 'our' experience with the japanese culture and having become desensitized to it's cultural attitude towards sex. However we do not reflect or nations completely on this topic because they would think of it differently.
To say that he 'missed' these spots... I would find TOTALLY laughable. It's pretty clear that he, like DC did with Ten Ten, was attempting to expand their company's market at the expense of the market as a whole and the fans said what needed to be said to save what they enjoy!
Sadly because the uproar got so loud it maybe FAR too late to stop the wave that it caused from touching biggest news services and national awareness. I just hope that it's not so! |
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HitokiriShadow
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 4908
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:07 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | f I had the other volumes, I'd know how old Eva is, but have wee seen how vamps age in Negi's universe? Are they considered children until they're 100 yrs of? Do they mature in 10 yrs? If it the Japanese version where they have some semblance of normal maturing & just suck blood, or is Eva dead like Alucard? |
Just in case you were interested: Eva was turned into a vampire when she was about 10 or so and hasn't aged since (though she can make herself appear older at times, apparently). She does not seem to be 'dead' and she doesn't have any problems with sunlight. As for her real age, it isn't entirely clear as of volume 13, but she is at least several hundred years old. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:34 pm |
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| Quote: | Just in case you were interested: spoiler[Eva was turned into a vampire when she was about 10 or so and hasn't aged since (though she can make herself appear older at times, apparently). She does not seem to be 'dead' and she doesn't have any problems with sunlight. As for her real age, it isn't entirely clear as of volume 13, but she is at least several hundred years old.][/quote]
Thank you.
[quote="ArielTsuki"]
Plus, you talk about how the Satanic Bible don't say how they don't say that they tell you to kill, kill, kill. BUT YOU NEVER READ KOJIKA.
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?????
That is beyond unintelligible
Let's see, you're saying the Satanic Bible says Kill Kill Kill?
No No No.
In a nutshell, LeVey is a burned-out Christian & started his own church & wrote the Satanic Bible which is actually more humanist (worship the devil in oneself). They follow a variation of the Mosaic law of an eye for an eye & a tooth for a tooth. Followers are instructed in the Satanic Bible to warn their enemies to back off & if the enemy doesn't, they are allowed to curse them. A child, like an animal, in the pure embodiment of the natural man-Satan in the flesh having yet to learn the inhibitions society forces on them. A child sees something, it takes it.
Another interesting book is called Satan Wants You! where the author points out most of the people commiting crimes in the name of Satan are not part of an organized religion, but usually rebelling against their Christian upbringing--it they do A to worship God, doing it backwards or upside down will ring the Devil.
Not a spoiler, but not the place to discuss religion, is it?
And we're off track, aren't we?
| Quote: | | And for the NTH time, no one kiss someone on the FIRST DAY we met as a familal kiss, on the lips. |
My mother in law & 3 of my sister in laws, expert.
My then future husband saw me at a party, got my number & set up a date. I kissed him good night on the first date, expert.
His family are lip-kissers, expert. It really bugged me. Eventually the one sister in law figured it out & started kissing on the cheek. The others never did,
I said I'm wrong, you're right, Soubi is raping Ritsuka every night. Ritsuka's wearing fake ears to throw his mother off
What more do you want?
The book banned?
Contact Tokyo Pop.
Soubi isn't in a position of trust as a teacher is, you know. That's why a person in a position of trust (parent, teacher, cop) not acting trustworthy is so much worse
Everyone at ANN is a hypocrite & can't be trusted. Sorry.
You read A shouta manga. Which one?
Try Lovely Sick. Oh, yeah, I complained about it.
| Quote: | | NO. I'm just calling out BS that's on this board for being paranoid about a title that subject matter is not new in America and repeated opinions that were easily debunked of a manga that they didn't read |
.
When a cop pulls you over for a ticket, does pointing out all the other speeders stop the cop from giving the ticket?
When the judge asks you why you had a blood alcohol level of .15 or whatever, does saying "Everyone else was drinking, not just me" get your case thrown out of court?
DOes Negima or Loveless heing the worst porn titles ever brought over to America in your apparent opinion change Nymphet's situation?
What I wrote on 5/19/07 on the Answerman discussion thread.
| Quote: | And really, anime/manga covers enough subjects there is someting for everyone.
As for all the screaming about Nyphet, is the panel out-of-context? When I was 14, I impressed a Jehovah's Witness on my doorstep because she pointed out a scripture in the New Testiment that made it sound as though Jesus was encouraging people to steal, but I knew that wouldn't be & gave her an interpretation I figured was more in keeping of what I knew of Jesus's teachings--wow, no one else ever figured that out, She regularly used that particular scripture to create doubt about whichever form of Christianity the person believed in. Taken out of contect, one can do a lot. Look at radio preachers & Heavy Metal (Yeah, the Metal bands are already at a disadvantage, but hedonism isn't necessarily Satanism)
Those of us with children have all seen the shock value reaction-they pick up something they shouldn't say & throw it around. Is this what's happening in this title? Is she repeating what she's heard to try to sound adult.? Or did she make a mistake in her writing? It is the job of responsible adults around children to remember they ARE adults & have control. Even if a child(even a teenager) is all over them, as the ADULT, they are the one who has the responsibility to say no. That's probably why I have such an issue with the teacher in Mahoromatic. Yes, it's pure fantasy, but it's highly irresponsible behavior.
And realistically, we all do know what the target audience of the story is, but it can still be an innocent enough story.. Kids are, as I said before, very free in their behavior. 7-10 yr old girls are often more interested in having fun than worrying about where their skirt is (Mine lived in shorts & pants at that age. with shorts under dress if in a dress) Until we see it as Seven Seas is going to translate it, we don't know. |
As I said, I was on your side, I simply decided to back the Seven Seas decision. You aren't winning any friends. Nor is your argument getting Nymphet published by Seven Seas |
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Daemonblue
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:55 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | DOes Negima or Loveless heing the worst porn titles ever brought over to America in your apparent opinion change Nymphet's situation?
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And that just killed your entire arguement. Sure, they have stuff in em that's as bad as Kojika, but they're NOT porn, and neither is Kojika, and you classifying (sp?) them as such when they are not shows that most of what you say can pretty much be ignored from here on out. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:26 am |
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| Daemonblue wrote: | | CCSYueh wrote: | DOes Negima or Loveless heing the worst porn titles ever brought over to America in your apparent opinion change Nymphet's situation?
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And that just killed your entire arguement. Sure, they have stuff in em that's as bad as Kojika, but they're NOT porn, and neither is Kojika, and you classifying (sp?) them as such when they are not shows that most of what you say can pretty much be ignored from here on out. |
Are you tired of defending Nymphet yet or should we give you a few more pages, champ? |
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Daemonblue
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:01 am |
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| I could keep this up for days, though it would be pointless because of the people with preconceptions about the topic at hand who haven't read any of the manga in question. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:06 am |
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| Daemonblue wrote: | | I could keep this up for days, though it would be pointless because of the people with preconceptions about the topic at hand who haven't read any of the manga in question. |
I read it and everything I said about it was spot-on in my estimation. Your comments are an endless argument that if only people read this garbage that somehow they'd magically side with you and that isn't going to happen.
Some people are disgusted and morally outraged that this kind of pandering filth would be released here. You don't feel that way. Claiming that if they read it they'd "get it" is nonsense; you're not going to sway anyone with it. You've accepted the content and the lifestyle as something you enjoy, but you're not going to win any new converts.
And I read the damn thing, so don't tell me I don't "get it". This isn't rocket science, it's not complicated, it's a goddamn comic book. So stop with the notion that those of us who disagree with you are somehow unenlightened fools who haven't seen the true path yet. |
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Daemonblue
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:45 am |
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Apparently you skipped over a small part in one of my previous posts
| Quote: | | However, I don't believe people have the right to pass judgement over something that they haven't even read, and so far the only one against this manga that I've seen comments from is Zac, even though he does seem to defend older teens getting sexually harassed (Mikuru much?). |
I'm not saying that they'll magically see the light once they read it, only that they should read it before saying a lot of these things that they are saying. It's one thing to make an educated judgement of a title after reading it, but to try to pass judgement on something one has not even read is another thing completely. I think this is one of those cases where you can't simply judge the book by its cover. Sure, you can start reading the book with the image on the cover in mind and expect certain things, but you can't say that it's right out porn without reading it. The fact that CCS labeled Loveless and Negima as porn in her previous post was a large mistake on her part. It's like saying a painting with cherubim in it is child porn because it depicts naked children, even though it's in an artistic light. Sure, Negima, Loveless, and Kojika aren't exactly the best pieces of art out there by any means, but that doesn't automatically make them porn either. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:49 am |
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| Daemonblue wrote: | Apparently you skipped over a small part in one of my previous posts
| Quote: | | However, I don't believe people have the right to pass judgement over something that they haven't even read, and so far the only one against this manga that I've seen comments from is Zac, even though he does seem to defend older teens getting sexually harassed (Mikuru much?). |
I'm not saying that they'll magically see the light once they read it, only that they should read it before saying a lot of these things that they are saying. It's one thing to make an educated judgement of a title after reading it, but to try to pass judgement on something one has not even read is another thing completely. I think this is one of those cases where you can't simply judge the book by its cover. Sure, you can start reading the book with the image on the cover in mind and expect certain things, but you can't say that it's right out porn without reading it. The fact that CCS labeled Loveless and Negima as porn in her previous post was a large mistake on her part. It's like saying a painting with cherubim in it is child porn because it depicts naked children, even though it's in an artistic light. Sure, Negima, Loveless, and Kojika aren't exactly the best pieces of art out there by any means, but that doesn't automatically make them porn either. |
Okay well I did read it and I think it's disgusting trash that panders to lolicon types who want to talk about how "hot" the 8-year olds in it are.
Is it porn? No, but it's like watching a movie that walks right up to that line and then steps back because it knows the MPAA is watching. It strolls right up to that line and then says "HA well we can't go there can we? wink wink" over and over and over again.
Nymphet is not porn. It is not porn. Not porn. Not porn. It's disgusting and obvious, but it isn't porn. Does that make you feel better? Is that all you wanted to hear? |
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ikillchicken
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Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 2513
Location: Vancouver - Go Canucks Go!
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:49 am |
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| Miitan wrote: | Exactly. I'm glad someone can see what I'm getting at (despite me having about an hours sleep and not being able to put it into words). If we were to take every series that contains lolicon/shoutacon (or what could be construed as such) and placed it all on a black list of 'bad stuff' then we would have some very popular series e.g. Negima!, Ichigo Mashimaro... (fill in the blanks, I don't actively look for series containing lolicon  ) being effectively shunned.
While lolicon is always going to be a part of Japanese culture that doesn't sit well with certain people and groups in the US (and I really doubt that everyone in Japan is a lolicon fan), the question is of course, what level do you tolerate before YOU personally draw the line? Is that where everyone else should draw the line too and if they don't, do they suddenly become something unpleasant or have something wrong with them? |
Hmm, well Im not sure were saying the exact same things here. I agree with the first part of what you said. However, I want to clarify. regardless of the level I never feel lolicon is okay. I agree though, I will tolerate it though to some extent. This means though that I would never agree with someone who thinks lolicon at any extent is okay. I think that this does blur the line. For instance, I personally find Negima to go a bit far. Still it doesnt go so far that I would hold it against someone for dissagreeing with me. Nymphet on the other hand though, I think does go far enough that its beyond close enough to peoples personal lines of whats okay. In this case I can't blame people for being against it.
| Quote: | | We are talking about ficticious material here and while this doesn't suddenly make loli-h manga acceptable it serves to blur the line between what you believe is OK, and others think is OK. |
This I dissagree with. Though it might be ficticious, I don't think that blurs the lines. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:26 am |
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| Daemonblue wrote: | | CCSYueh wrote: | DOes Negima or Loveless heing the worst porn titles ever brought over to America in your apparent opinion change Nymphet's situation?
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And that just killed your entire arguement. Sure, they have stuff in em that's as bad as Kojika, but they're NOT porn, and neither is Kojika, and you classifying (sp?) them as such when they are not shows that most of what you say can pretty much be ignored from here on out. |
Do you not understand English?
| Quote: | | in your apparent opinion |
We all. on the other hand, can ignore what you're saying because ypu don't understand what we're saying.
Besides, you abuse animals.
This horse is dead & you comtinue to beat the poor thing. |
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DmonHiro
Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:22 am |
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| I've changed my mind. I must thank all you twits who hate KnJ. The scanlations have been coming out like crazy, so REALLY thanks, I'll make sure as much people as posible get to read it. |
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