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Hey, Answerman! [2007-06-22]


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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:57 am Reply with quote
Interesting rant.

I myself am a Christian, but I don't let the misinterpretations of Christianity in anime bother me too much. It's not like the creators are deliberately trying to attack my religion. Granted, I haven't watched Hellsing, and a few notions in Chrono Crusade did bother me, but overall, I take everything religious in anime with a grain of salt. It's just entertainment, and besides, I hardly see anything less offensive coming from the US.
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Eruanna



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 451
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:04 am Reply with quote
Merciful Evans wrote:
Quote:
There has only been two shows that so crossed the line that I had to put it down, even though I REALLY wanted to get into them, and those were D.Grey-Man and Le Chevalier d'Eon.


The objection to Le Chevalier has me a bit curious; is it the Psalm of the King element to the plot? I myself don't love Le Chevalier spoiler[(I just can't wrap my head around Robespierre as an occultist bishonen)], but I think that the use of the Psalm of the King is just an interpretation of a particular passage in the bible associated with alchemy in the story; at the very least, I think Le Chevalier shows a good deal more investigation into religion than most series, even if artistic liberties are taken with the material (as in all sorts of other productions, including innumerable American works).



Actually, for this question, I shall refer you to a great review written that sums up my thoughts far better then I could (I read this and I went "Holy cow thats exactly what I thought, only I couldnt word it so well if my life depended on it!")

Quote:

Then again, perhaps it's because I found the whole "Christian magic" angle of the program particularly ridiculous. Unlike Japanese cultural religions that incorporate magical legends into their lore, Christianity and Judaism's roots show a profound disdain for magical arts. Just look at Acts 8:9-24 for a story about Simon, often referred to as Simon Magus, who was strongly chastised when he asked to buy the ability to use the God-given powers the disciples were displaying. As such, to see the "Poets" going around doing magic with "Psalms" is patently absurd. So is the whole premise of Lia possessing D'Eon by quoting "the Psalm of Vengeance" or even the notion that Lia's soul would wind up walking the earth without her body's burial. (Admittedly, at times in church history there have been some wild notions about the soul/body dichotomy, but this is the first I've heard of this one.) The "Psalm" quoted throughout the program is really an incantation, just like any other we see in a magical girl show during a transformation sequence. It makes the pseudo-Christian symbolism of Neon Genesis Evangelion look perfectly reasonable by comparison. Now this does not mean that there weren't religious cults in 1700s France; I have no doubt that the occult was practiced. But to equate Christianity with the practices of witchcraft? It goes to show how little the show's creators understand Christianity on the whole. I couldn't write a program that would do justice to Shinto, and I wish that those who don't understand Christianity would just leave it well enough alone. Things like the whole crossdressing/transgender issues between D'Eon and Lia didn't bother me half as much as this. One other thing...the characters have to explain simple biblical allusions to each other (at one point, D'Eon explains to someone that "Psalms" is a book in the Bible). In 1700s France? Not likely. They're doing it for us, the assumedly biblically illiterate audience, but their method is painful for those who know the effect of Christianity on Europe.


This is from the review of Chevalier volume one at http://www.theanimereview.com/
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scrapps



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:16 am Reply with quote
There is also the "shounen hater" that has been around long enough that they watched the shows back when they were called "Yu Yu Hakusho" and "Dragon Ball." I know I don't watch nearly as much anime as I did when I was first getting into it, because newer shows start to seem more formulaic and lacking in originality.

I think that a lot of people have problems with Christianity because of the inconsistency in the the beliefs of the people they've met and some of it's religious leaders. I'm not Christian because I disagree with parts of most of its denominations. If I meet someone who does something that I know is against their religion and then later says they are against gay marriage because it's against their religion, it's very hard for me to respect their opinion at that point.

Maybe I just don't understand how you can pick and choose from an organized religion.

And there is a big difference between painting all Americans with one brush and painting all Christians with one brush. You can pick your religion; you can't pick where you were born.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:18 am Reply with quote
I am one to pass off the notion that the rant really has that much to do with religion. The author was obviously concerned with how Christianity is presented in anime but you've got to wonder what sort of tolerance she would have to American licensors and producers actually altering the work in question to make it more acceptable. I am thinking her acceptance would be quite high and would in fact approve of certain types of screening and editing of specific details like names, dialogue and references. Of course as with any adaptation to make anime commercially accessible to fans, some alteration occurs and sometimes more often than others for various other reasons (sex, violence and just general Japaneseness). However, with the intense criticism that most fans have for altering the original work in any way I think companies have learned that they must choose which consumers they are going to appeal to on a series by series basis. I do know that the LAST people that companies will cave into are religious separatists (especially Christians) and it will be a safe bet and hope there will NEVER be an anime series brought over and released with those ideals in mind to have such a specific marketing appeal.
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:23 am Reply with quote
scrapps wrote:
I think that a lot of people have problems with Christianity because of the inconsistency in the the beliefs of the people they've met and some of it's religious leaders. I'm not Christian because I disagree with parts of most of its denominations. If I meet someone who does something that I know is against their religion and then later says they are against gay marriage because it's against their religion, it's very hard for me to respect their opinion at that point.

Maybe I just don't understand how you can pick and choose from an organized religion.


Often, people are so busy fighting over petty differences in their religious beliefs (denominations) that they completely forget what lies at the core of Christianity - love. I might disagree with gay marriage, but that doesn't mean I won't still accept someone who practices it as a Christian. People have different interpretations of Christianity, but we all believe in the same God, don't we?
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jetz



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Manila, Philippines
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:32 am Reply with quote
Fanart selling: I thought that the person was describing was some sort of doujinshi, but since Answerman didn't say anything about doujinshis I must be wrong

Shonen anime: It's all a matter of taste. If you like shonen, fine. Don't care about what others say. As for me, I don't watch Naruto or Bleach or any of the more popular shonen titles. I have watched a lot of Eureka 7 and I finished Law of Ueki, and I like both titles.

Otaku socializing: I don't have friends who love anime as much as I do. I don't even go to cons, but sometimes I do criticize the way other anime fans act. Most of the time I try to ignore them, but there are really annoying guys out there, like the guy who keeps on PMing me (in another forum) about how Law of Ueki is evil

Rant: Generally, I don't mind people who give importance to religion they see in anime, that is if they express themselves in an acceptable way. The guy I was referring to was "outraged" by the blasphemy he saw in Law of Ueki, and he started this thread (in another forum) saying that we shouldn't watch it or whatever. I simply told him that anime bashing wasn't allowed in that forum. The thread was locked, of course, but to my surprise he PMed me saying that I was ignorant and I wasn't following the 10 commandments (he even PMed me a copy of the 10 commandments!). I told him that maybe he shouldn't watch anime because if he saw Chrono Crusade, Hellsing, etc. He would probably be 10 times angrier.
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Eruanna



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 451
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:32 am Reply with quote
But I think a lot of you are missing the point... the rant had nothing at all to do with insults thrown at christianity, or whether you agree with christianity or not. It was simply a statment about how a lot of anime portrays it incorrectly.
Example, in Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne, Jeanne has to exorcise demons because if she dosnt, God will loose his energy and die. This is absurd nonsence to anyone who is actually Christian, and so watching this show that is trying to be "Christian", or quasi-Christian is.. strange, to say the least.
It has nothing to with insults or debates, just getting things right or wrong. I think you guys have missed the point.
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zetsuie



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 193
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:38 am Reply with quote
ok first Johny Young Bosh rocks for two reasons
1 he was the Black Power Ranger
2. his band eyeshine his awesome and if you've ever seen them at a con im sure you'll agree
also I kind of like the fact that they use the same voice actors in different anime cause its awesome when your watching the credits of Evangelion and see that the same voice actor for Souske Sagara in FMP had a very tiny part that you cant even remember because is character doesn't even have a real name
I wouldn't trade moments like that for anything in the world

about the flake
So let me get this straight answer man if go around the interweb and tell people how awesome ADV dubs are and how they should subscribe to TAN i can be rolling around in a big pile of money just like you

as for the Ranter three words
OH YOUR GOD
I just recently saw Hellsing and the conclusion i can come to is vampires kick some serious ass
plus i cant wait to see how people react over the Funimation dub of One Piece with the Skypiea arc especially when one of the main characters says he doesn't believe in god but i guess pirates don't need god just treasure.

Eruanna wrote:

There has only been two shows that so crossed the line that I had to put it down, even though I REALLY wanted to get into them, and those were D.Grey-Man and Le Chevalier d'Eon.
ok well first off D.Gray-man is set in a different universe and secondly its a pretty positive spin on the whole Catholic religion cause its about priests who exorcise demons (which I can only assume is what Priests are suppose to do)and it just so happens that one of those priests are vampires and like i already stated vampires kick ass


Last edited by zetsuie on Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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Michi
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:42 am Reply with quote
The flake of the week makes me sad. It makes me realize there are a lot of people with similar views, blindly believing that fansubs are perfect and better than the licensed version.

It also makes me sad, as a huge fan of AIR, that a big fan of it is refusing to buy the licensed version under such beliefs. I'm picking it up as soon as it comes out, no matter what. I'm not a big dub fan, but I also don't have to sit through the dub if I don't want to. Sigh. Oh well!
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:52 am Reply with quote
RDespair wrote:
I wouldn't say that Azumanga Daioh is specifically directed to otaku audiences. Shows that are targetted at otaku generally:

1) Are about otaku (Genshiken, Welcome to the NHK, Comic Party)

2) Have jokes that tend to break the 4th wall and require extensive knowledge of other anime & manga series.

Azumanga Daioh has none of these; it's just a cute and random comedy show about a bunch of high school friends. As far as anime comedy shows goes, I think it's one of the more mainstream shows out there: a great choice to show to someone who is new to anime. Heck, even my 6 year old daughter loves it.

Quoted for truth. "A lot of [interest group] likes [subject]" does not mean "[subject] is designed specifically with [interest group] in mind." A good comparison to Azumanga Daioh would be Lucky Star; both are about the daily lives of a bunch of high school girls, but one can hardly enjoy the latter unless equipped with sufficient knowledge of anime/manga/games/Internet culture.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6867
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:54 am Reply with quote
Link two the "5 Geek Social Fallacies:http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
The most elaborately dense Flake I've read in awhile wrote:
Hey "Answerman," who always supports the English anime companies no matter what because you are PAID OFF, please tell me this: how did that horrible English butchering company ADV get the rights to SLAUGHTER and DESTROY ~AIR~ TV, the most amazing anime ever made. All they do is ruin everything with English dubs and crappy subtitles that you know are wrong because the fansubs, which are better, say things differently. I will never EVER give them money to watch some horrible DESTROYED version of my beloved ~AIR~. They will rape it, of course you do not agree because your pockets are lined with BRIBES from ADV telling you to tell people to buy their butchered versions.
Wow, butchering, raping, and slaughtering, all actions that I never thought could be done to anime! But to be fair, at least one part of his questions is answerable: "How did they get the rights?" "They went and talked with [Japanese rights-holding companies], said 'We'll pay you this much money and do this type of DVD release,' and the Japanese companies said 'Okay, you've got yourself a deal.' " What I would say to the Flake is:

Dear Mr. Flake, please present at least twenty sets of comparison screenshots demonstrating the differences between the fansub of your choice and ADV's DVD version. Include along with this an analysis of the language used in full kanji and how it should be translated.

Oh wait, what am I thinking, ADV's version doesn't even exist yet Rolling Eyes While I have come out and said fansubs > DVDs (in terms of subtitles) on some occasions, there's just no sense in criticizing subtitles or an English dub that doesn't exist. It's even more presumptuous to say that AIR (fansubs) > AIR (DVD) when your command of one's own language is so bad that you can't possibly have a good enough understanding of Japanese to critique different translations. And AIR is considerably more difficult than the average series, too.
The Rant wrote:
Words have meaning, and when you use them in meaningless ways, you're showing the ignorance of the power of the words you use.
Didn't I read the same thing in Alice 19th?
The Rant wrote:
Once again, I'm yelling more at ADV than Moriyama. Ignoring all the errors, the portrayal of nuns is completely disrespectful to everything nuns are and attempt to witness in the world. The sexual jokes strike me as especially problematic in this area, as the sisters of this order are suddenly reduced to gossipy teenage girls who don't mind showing a little leg and just happen to wear habits in the meantime. Real nuns pray constantly for help and struggle with real temptations to maintain their vows of chastity and humility.
So, the fanservice and the giggling nuns bother the ranter, but it's okay that these nuns run amok with machine guns?
Zac wrote:
If you have a giant creepy guy who smells like stale Doritos, hits on the girls, clutches his hentai manga and boasts of his creepy obsession with Osaka from Azumanga Daioh, it's really not that big a deal if you give him the cold shoulder or simply don't socialize with him.
Wait, hitting on girls is bad? Somehow, I always knew Anime cry

Oh, the stories I could tell...we've had some real strange ones in our anime club. Luckily most of them were weeded out due to their world being dislocated or legal troubles. Like one guy who lived every bit of the freak/Goth stereotype, and hit on girls in creepy ways, using both the "I can show you a world of pleasure" and "I'm a virgin, will you help me?" pickup lines -- during the same conversation, with the same girl. IIRC he got put away on statutory rape charges.
Similarly, there was the underaged kid who went on Marxist ranting sprees when drunk, who also liked to engage in explicit AIM conversations with girls who a) weren't interested in him, and b) had no qualms about posting the logs on LiveJournal for everyone else to see and laugh at. He also ran afoul of the law, when he got caught for attempted rape (or maybe just sexual assault) in a girls' restroom at school.
Or there was the age-30+ woman who was rather "portly" and routinely hit on the age-20-25 males in the club...with some success Anime dazed Not me though. I'm not quite that hard up. Or the girl who seriously had the mind of a 6-year-old child, judging by the screaming, crying, and temper tantrums she threw when things didn't go her way (e.g. when the University told us we couldn't play video games on school equipment prior to club).
And we had the classic stereotypical smelly/repulsive/deranged guy who was all about the hentai (not that that's bad in itself), and always spinning tall tales about his vast financial resources and secret superhuman powers. We actually did have to ban him from the club when some online drama about someone saying something about his girlfriend spilled over into real life and he started throwing punches. (Irony of the world: guys like this get girlfriends, and yet I still don't)

So yeah, sometimes you have to stand up and draw the line against certain people or certain behaviors.
Ulto wrote:
That just means you like the series for something other than the fact that it targets otaku, right? [...] I digress, but the main point is that is that most series have merits other than their target at otakudom.
I think there's enough variety within any genre that there's no reason to say "I'm not going to watch [series] because it's targeted at Group X." With otaku-aimed series, another important characteristic (beyond being referential or being about otaku) is source material -- series based on visual novels (which if I'm not mistaken are mainly an otaku diversion) or manga serialized in otaku-aimed publications are most likely to be otaku-aimed anime. Within the realm of otaku anime, you get such vastly different series as Paniponi Dash and the aforementioned AIR; it'd be a mistake for comedy and drama fans (respectively) to pass those up just because they're "aimed at otaku." And that's what's so great about the non-Japanese market--the social norms are different enough that series can find a significantly different audience from their original Japanese targets. For instance, I remember reading that the Galaxy Angel franchise had a bit of popularity among younger girls over here, which would be unthinkable in Japan.

Oh yeah, and it's not like the Japanese don't re-use the same VAs -- it takes more viewing because the talent pool is bigger, but eventually you get familiar with / tired of the repetition on the Japanese side as well.
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Ramadahl



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 325
Location: MK, UK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:00 am Reply with quote
Selling fanart and doujinshi - I always figure it's on the same level as AMVs, in that no-one makes a lot of money from it, and it's still an original work in a sense.

Quote:
...nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate.

Heh, so true. As soon as I read this a few faces sprang to mind.

Flake - more so than any other, this one really seemed like someone was just making it up.

Rant - Hmm... upset by misrepresentation of Christianity in anime (and in general, it seems)? All I can really think to say is... of dear, there there. Obviously it's not great if it's making you unhappy, but there's no maliciousness involved... they just want to tell a fun story, the intent was never to give an accurate portrayl of Christianity in the first place. That would be boring.
Also, it's not going to change any time soon, so either grin and bear it, or... don't.
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Jamee



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 79
Location: North Carolina
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:03 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Are you living in the same US I am? This almost never happens. People write books all the time filled with the most offensive stereotypes imaginable, and while some people do object, it's usually in small numbers on a blog somewhere. Books are generally written for very narrow audiences, and those are usually the audiences that see them. No one complains because they're not the ones buying them.


It doesn't seem that way to me. Usually any book that gets published here in the US that is filled with stereotypes (or what people perceive to be stereotypes) generates major press. Remember a few years ago when someone put out that kid's book called Nappy Hair? People wanted the author burned at the stake! And this isn't a new practice either. Back in the sixties the original Nancy Drew books got edited to remove offensive stereotypes of blacks and Jews. It was a reflection of a changing US population.

Of course, if your talking about those crazy militant right-wing books put out by some guy who printed them out on the copy machine in his basement, then no, those don't get press.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:29 am Reply with quote
Okay, so lets examine the Flakes theory: ADV's subtitles are inacurate, unlike fansubbers who have it exactly right. He does not specify wether this is intentional on ADVs part or not, but apparently they then Bribe Zac to support their product.

Now assuming they do this unintentionally, im curious why a bunch of fansubbers on the internet would be more accurate than professional translators.

Or perhaps he is suggesting that they do this intentionally in which case I must ask: why? Where is the benefit for them in mistranslating? Wouldnt it be so much easier to just do it right and then not have to bribe Zac?
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Kouga13



Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:34 am Reply with quote
The rant reminded me of this: http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070613

It's fiction if it was a documentary I could understand the annoyance.

And if anyone should be whining about their religion being attacked it should be the Muslims.
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