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ichiro3923



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 167
Location: hiding in your closet watching you

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:33 am Reply with quote
[quote="ichiro3923"]
DRWii wrote:
Fansubs: This is a touchy subject, so feel free to argue.

I think fansubs, when used properly, are a good thing. Its great to see a new show from Japan and then buy the official DVDs when they come out. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the way things are working. I don't know anyone personally, but I keep hearing about people refusing to pay for the anime they supposedly (did I spell that right?) love. Its understandable to complain about pricing; I'd love to just buy the R1 version as soon as it comes out and get rid of those subs, but I don't have that kind of money. Of course, some prices are outrageous ($40 for 2 episodes and no dub? I'll wait). However, its not nearly enough of an excuse. Not to mention, there is a definate difference in enjoyment between seeing a few files on a screen and seeing a few boxes on a shelf. However, these cheapskates who refuse to pay seem (IMO) to be in large numbers, and if they aren't they are probably on the rise.

A possible solution may be "Okay, go ahead and download a few episodes now, but be sure to PAY later." If the series looks like you'll want it, buy it; if not, rent the same amount you saw or more. I admit to watching a few fansubbed episodes of licensed shows, sometimes the actual dubs, and I fully intend to pay for what I've seen (even though one episode of Love Hina was more than enough). I'm sure many of you don't think this strategy is nearly enough, but at least its something.


The "Pay Later" solution may not work because all funsubbing groups will have to agree to use this solution, which I don't think they will.

Even if one fansubbing group like Dattebayo decides to implement "paying for it later", people will probably just go to another group who promises free downloads or go to youtube before the episode is removed from the site due to legal reasons.

As for reading about people not buying it because of R1 DVD's:
I'm kind of a noob, so what the hell is R1 DVD's and what is it that causes people not to buy it? (I think it was discussed on a previous Answerman article)


For the record, if the anime was an OVA or something that promises to have good animation and storyline, like Hellsing:Ultimate Series, I would buy the DVD with high quality with professional transloators to appreciate the animation and story.

If it was another shonen jump episode (ie. 200+ episodes), the quality of animaton would probably be low and the shonen jump storyline is formulaic that I probably do not need the best translators and highest quality to watch the series.


Last edited by ichiro3923 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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DRWii



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:34 am Reply with quote
Quote:
The "Pay Later" solution may not work because all funsubbing groups will have to agree to use this solution, which I don't think they will.


I'm not sure if I understand correctly; it kind of sounds like you're saying to pay for the fansubs, but I don't think that's what you mean.

Quote:
I'm kind of a noob, so what the hell is R1 DVD's and what is it that causes people not to buy it?


Most DVDs are region encoded, meaning that they will only play on DVD players that recognize that region. North America is in Region 1, or R1 for short. I know that Japan and Europe are R2, and I think Austrailia is R4, but beyond that I have no clue how it's divided. The reason some people don't buy R1 DVDs is because they don't think $20-30 is cheap enough for 4 episodes.
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bahamut623



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1026

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:45 am Reply with quote
That is the best anime ever!

That's disappointing about Only Yesterday, since I've been wanting to buy it since watching it on TCM. I didn't really think anything was unsuitable for children. I just thought the movie wasn't aimed at children to begin with. I loved it, but I think kids would be bored by it.
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condorfan



Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 14
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:45 am Reply with quote
[quote="

Rant: I agree with the ranter that people tend to be over protective of kids but all parents want whats best for thier child.

[/quote]

Most of us Anime Parents Smile are fairly strict about what we let our kids watch... anything my six-year-old watches is something that's been previewed by us or by friends who will censor or warn us about (i.e. certain scenes, episodes) if need be. She did see Princess Tutu (fansubs, admittedly, but we bought the R1 DVDs when they came out) without a preview, though with me sitting there reading/translating the subs for her.
As for OY... I do wish it would get released, and have no problem with my daughter hearing about menstruation. It's natural! It's biology! Better she hears about it before it actually happens and puberty throws her for a complete loop...
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mokitty



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:20 pm Reply with quote
The rant raises a good point about the overprotection of children.

I grew up on what I'd consider the front edge of the "save the children" generation, and in my case, the protection I got did come from my parents (No cable TV! No Zelda; he carries a sword and that's dangerous!). I have a theory about what that's led to, having grown up through it. It's a little off-topic, but for me ties pretty directly into both the base problem with censorship and becomes a root cause of the fansub problem.

We talk about a culture of entitlement: kids in university feeling they have "paid" for their degree and thus have a right to high grades (as examined extensively earlier this year in Canada's Maclean's magazine), kids stealing video games, music, and yes, even the upcoming generation of "should never have to pay" fansub viewers.

For my part, my parents were born during the Second World War, never knowing if they'd have a chance to know their fathers; and raised during the Vietnam War and Cold War, being reminded daily through duck and cover drills that the world could come to an end at any moment and that there were, in fact, people out there who wanted to kill them. Coming out of that horror, it's natural that parents of their generation would think, "Never again," and try to "protect" their children and allow them to enjoy their "innocence". The problem lies in what those children have grown up to lack by growing up without ever facing threat.
The only war my generation had to face was the Gulf War, and in my community, at least, it was something that led to a quiet changing of channels whenever it came on the television. Personally I can remember what it was like to struggle financially, but it's interesting to me to watch my two younger brothers, who only came along as my father found success in his business and had money to go along with the over-protectedness I lived with. I do my best to overcome it and remember the struggle that life truly is for the majority of the world, but even remembering what it's like to not have much, from time to time I catch myself acting just as spoiled as so many of my younger peers. I get the impression from talking to other Canadian-borns around my age that it was much the same for many of us.

Is it any wonder, then, that a generation of children that was raised in ultimate security, without images of war or conciousness of outside threat; without ever having to face the basest truth of life, that life itself is insecure... is it really any wonder these kids are growing up and taking other things for granted too?

I'm really very curious to see how the reminder that North Americans can die too on 9/11 will affect those who were just old enough at the time that they'll remember it. Hopefully, they'll have a little more gratitude for what they've got.
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Imperialkat



Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:13 pm Reply with quote
Why do people keep saying that people are watching anime on TV for free? To my knowledge television doesn't work that way. Someone is paying for it to be on television--the sponsors. And what they pay is determined by how many people watch (or might watch) the show, which is determined by the all-powerful Nielson rating.

RANT: I agree that it's the parents job to protect their children from questionable content, but to their credit some parents may feel overwhelmed by the task. For example, how do you gaurd against images on the Internet in a computer you don't control (besides TALKING TO THE KID)? Keep in mind that in some (most) cases kids are better with technology than their parents, so the adults are really fighting a losing battle for control.

Like I said, I agree with the rant, it's just that the parent's claims aren't completely baseless (weak, maybe, but not baseless).
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:22 pm Reply with quote
I agree with the ranter, it's the parents responsibility in finding shows for the children rather than the companies. I remember when I was young I couldn't watch some shows because of my age and wasn't allowd to watch TV after 9 when all the mature shows were on. When the sticker says "13+" they don't mean 5+ they mean 13+, meaning parents should suggest another movie for their children, or watch it themselves (or read a review explaining the "bad stuff") and decide wheather or not it's safe for their children. Companies have done their job by placing a sticker on the back, or front, telling parents the suggested age. (Canada has even placed stickers on the back of most anime DVDs giving it a rating) It's like why are parents complaining that their son or daughter who is eight is playing GTA when they were the ones who bought it for them. Did they care to look at the front cover where it was given a "17+" rating?

EDIT: for soccer moms in the US they should send their kids to Europe then complain that there was a panty shot in their DVD.
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tahiti_thal



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:34 pm Reply with quote
marie-antoinette wrote:
Just a note to the rant, while I agree that parents are the ones who should be deciding what their children see and do not see, I think the Disney example is a bad one because probably a huge factor in deciding not to license over such scenes would be made not to protect children, but to protect Disney's reputation. Reputation is one of the most important things out there, especially for a recognizable brand, and if they had something released with questionable material (which was intended material) they might get in trouble with some of their customer base and they can't risk that for one movie that probably wouldn't even sell all that well compared to their other project since anime is still a niche. Disney is supposed to be family friendly and all their movies have low ratings (Pirates of the Caribbean was the first PG-13 rated Disney movie in the U.S.). Anything that could compromise this would have to be exceptional for them to go ahead with it.


I'm the author of the rant. Hi! I just wanted to respond to say that if you watch Hunchback of Notre Dame, which I have several times, being a huge Disney fan myself, there is just.. TONS of material in there that watching as an older person, my eyebrows go WAY up. I'm like THAT made it in there? Oh, my.
And I'll use my Last Unicorn DVD as an example to how the few can make the rule. I had the pleasure of speaking to Connor Cochram, Peter S. Beagle's business manager about TLU's 25th anniversary disk. Initially, TLU had a DVD release a few years back, completely untouched. What happened is that Walmart recieved a few complaints, and they went back to Lionsgate and said, either you do something about the scenes or we don't carry it. So the few can have a powerful influence over what gets shown. I can see Disney saying, we'd rather not deal with it, since the deal we made with Ghibli says to not cut anything out, than to deal with the wrath of irate parents and Walmart.

And sadly, during TCM's big month of Ghibli, I was away at school (and no access to TCM!), and while I asked my sister to record it for me, she, well.. deleted it. I will be keeping an eye on TCM's schedule, because the movie looks fabulous, and I would really love to see it to see if it's not just that the two scenes are questionable, but that it's not marketable.


Last edited by tahiti_thal on Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Omega13



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:35 pm Reply with quote
DRWii wrote:
Quote:
I'm kind of a noob, so what the hell is R1 DVD's and what is it that causes people not to buy it?


Most DVDs are region encoded, meaning that they will only play on DVD players that recognize that region. North America is in Region 1, or R1 for short. I know that Japan and Europe are R2, and I think Austrailia is R4, but beyond that I have no clue how it's divided. The reason some people don't buy R1 DVDs is because they don't think $20-30 is cheap enough for 4 episodes.


It's a bit small, but you can see the general DVD and Blu-Ray region breakdowns here: http://animeondvd.com/reviews/index.php
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TWXM



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:13 pm Reply with quote
Imperialkat wrote:
Why do people keep saying that people are watching anime on TV for free? To my knowledge television doesn't work that way. Someone is paying for it to be on television--the sponsors. And what they pay is determined by how many people watch (or might watch) the show, which is determined by the all-powerful Nielson rating.


But wouldn't that mean that using a DVR to skip the commercials is just as bad as watching fansubs?
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CrazyCanuck



Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:19 pm Reply with quote
Mylene wrote:
Rant Rules wrote:
The next rant I publish will either conform to these guidelines or we simply won't have one that week. Rather than always publishing a rant - which I've been doing in the past, even if the rant was awful - I'll simply skip the section. Sound good?

Well, there's more. The author of the next rant to be published - which will only happen if it's good enough and follows these guidelines - will receive a prize box chock full of anime and manga straight from my own collection. I won't announce exactly what the prize is, but suffice to say, it's an incentive to do your best.


Okay, this has been bothering me for awhile. Basically, you've said in the above that you will not post a rant unless they "win," and yet ever since you've said that, you've posted up a non-winning rant. You really should reconsider rewording that last paragraph, because it's quite contradictory to what you've been doing. Unless all of these non-"winning" ranters have been receiving prize boxes. At which point...none of it makes much sense.


Oh good. I'm not the only one bugged by this. I see it every week (or at least every week we actually get a column) and sigh. I keep considering writing a rant about it and submitting it. With my luck it wouldn't win but would still be posted.
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Bob Loblaw



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 141
Location: Tanning in Hell

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:44 pm Reply with quote
Parvati-IV wrote:
You know, by this point we should all realize we aren't going to change each other's minds on where they fall in the fansub debate. Going on for pages and pages each column is pointless.


You do realize that this is going to fall on deaf ears ("blind eyes"?), same as every other forum member who's typed up something similar. INTERNETS anime fans want to complain and will do so in as many, MANY pages as possible. It's boredom. Or maybe they want to flex ANN's bandwidth or something, I dunno. *shrug*

And I agree with Zac's opinion that allowing ENTIRE SERIES be available to download are not "previews"; anyone who attempts to argue otherwise is being a dope. I mean, it's the whole series! Why should it take the entire series run for someone to decide it may or may not be worth buying? Isn't the fact they kept downloading each episode a big enough hint for them?

"Nah, I'm not sure I'll get the DVDs yet. Maybe after I watch Episode #38---which I'm downloading now---I'll know for sure." Rolling Eyes
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ichido reichan



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:19 pm Reply with quote
ALSO, for the one that pointed out prices in japan...

Japan is overpriced, you know that, right? yoiu can find for 50.00 the first star wars movie, so then yeah... we are lucky we got anime for free...

wait, but they too!!! is on tv!!!

japan itself is a little overpriced
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Zalis116
Moderator


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 4812
Location: Tana Village

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:30 pm Reply with quote
Bob Loblaw wrote:
And I agree with Zac's opinion that allowing ENTIRE SERIES be available to download are not "previews"; anyone who attempts to argue otherwise is being a dope. I mean, it's the whole series! Why should it take the entire series run for someone to decide it may or may not be worth buying? Isn't the fact they kept downloading each episode a big enough hint for them?

"Nah, I'm not sure I'll get the DVDs yet. Maybe after I watch Episode #38---which I'm downloading now---I'll know for sure." Rolling Eyes
For the most part, I agree...but what about those series that completely fall apart in the last few episodes or have horrible, inconclusive endings that make you feel like you just wasted 26 episodes worth of your time? Stuff like Spiral, whose ending I've heard compared to Berserk's -- because of that, I don't ever want to watch it, whether I pay for it or not. In general though, I believe 20% of a series is enough to judge its overall quality; but if some fansub groups stop after 20% of a series, other, lesser-quality groups will step in to sub the other 80%, thereby "damaging the property" more (as per John Ledford's words about bad fansubs).

And as has been said in every argument like this, Japanese TV isn't any more free than TV in other countries, especially the satellite PPV channels that carry a lot of late-night anime. However, I still have to disbelieve those who claim, "fansubs are killing DVD sales in Japan because Japanese fans don't mind a bit of hardsubbed English text on their free anime," as if the end of fansubbing would magically revive Japanese DVD sales. Newsflash: fansubbers have to get their raw materials from somewhere, and it sure as heck isn't directly from "DeatH_sTuNNeR_125"'s basement, despite what the "Raw Provider" credits in fansubs tell you.
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Defiant7



Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:46 am Reply with quote
I know "Only Yesterday" has questionable scenes and Disney has a reputation to uphold, But could they just not distribute it through one of there other subsidiaries or not brand it as a Disney Product. They have used both of these methods before. With "Princess Mononoke" by Miramax or like ommiting the Disney logo from the original release of "Black Cauldron"
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