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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3858
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:30 pm Reply with quote
mistress_reebi wrote:
dormcat wrote:
mistress_reebi wrote:
European media is way more liberal and their children being corrupt.

I don't see European children making more troubles than their American counterparts.


Oops, that was a typo. I meant to say and their childeran AREN'T being corrupt. Thanks for pointing that out.
"Only Yesterday" was originally made for an adult audience in the first place, so it isn't what Disney would call "family movie" and so not worth the cost of a dub as they figured it wouldn't sell well enough to recoup the cost. Also I believe they, having had their fingers burned with "Princess Mononoke", they are a bit shy of trying it again. I saw it when our Film 4 had transmitted it uncut. and it was one of the best anime movies I've seen and the only Japanese/ English subbed movie that had me in joyous tears at the end. I found nothing even remotely echii about it so when I bought the DVD I let my 11 and 12 year old children watch it, and though they couldn't understand why I was in tears, they liked it. One has to remember that the old North American cultural dogma that "cartoons are only for kids" is still chiseled in the stones of Castle Disney.
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Richard J.
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Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 2931
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:58 pm Reply with quote
chocho wrote:
2. Series which air in TV on Japan, can be viewed for free (let's not go into an argument discussing how the Japanese have to pay a tiny fee to run a TV set in their house. Nobody cares about this technicality.)
Actually the majority of series, especially any that aren't mainstream, are shown on Japan's cable and satellite networks, so people are paying a bit more than "a tiny fee to run a TV set." Plus, if you've ever seen an OVA fansubbed, then you're watching something that the Japanese HAD to pay to see even once since OVAs are basically straight to DVD.

I'm not trying to attack you. I'm willing to believe that you do actually buy DVDs. I hope that you're buying the official legal ones and not bootlegs. Plus, unlike some speaking in favor of fansubs, you didn't try to make some odd "Anime should be free!" argument.

I am curious though, how many English anime dubs have you watched lately? I'm not going to try and convince you that English dubs are better than Japanese with English subs, that's strictly a matter of personal taste, but I would like to point out that there are many English dubs that are quite good. If you haven't watched at least 2-3 episodes in English, you're not giving the dub much of a chance.

@ ichiro3923: If I'm remembering the article correctly, there are supposed to be several movies coming. One of them is supposed to be a prequel and I think, again if I'm remembering correctly, that the rest will basically retell the series but that there will be differences. (I tried searching for the article but I didn't find it. Crying or Very sad )
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Berserkfury819



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Detroit Mi. Spider-Man is dead. R.I.P.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:40 pm Reply with quote
Regarding Eva Rebuild. There will be 4 films. They will be a re-imagining of the series, kind of like the Escaflowne movie. The first is a prequel, the next two will be in between the series time line, the last will be a new final final ending. At least from what I've heard/read. No new news on the live action Eva.

On an unrelated note, 50 posts. WOOHOO!! Very Happy
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chocho



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:29 pm Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:
Plus, if you've ever seen an OVA fansubbed, then you're watching something that the Japanese HAD to pay to see even once since OVAs are basically straight to DVD.


Indeed. I'm fully aware that both OVAs and movies are far from free. As for cable, I find it to be a bit of a grey area. I have cable myself. If I watch it for 10 hours in the month it costs $60. If I watch it for 100 hours in the month it costs $60. So from my point of view anything on cable is free to watch. It's not like DVD rentals where you pay cash each time you walk out of the store with a stack of DVDs.

Richard J. wrote:
I'm not trying to attack you. I'm willing to believe that you do actually buy DVDs. I hope that you're buying the official legal ones and not bootlegs.


I've been burned with bootlegs in the past, mainly through buying on eBay where the seller claimed to be selling the real thing, and then wasn't. I could have complained and returned the title, but I chose to just suck it down and throw out the DVDs instead. Actually in Australia it's not hard to distinguish bootlegs from the real thing, because practically everything official is licenced by one company (monopoly much? Though I won't complain just yet because they're not really abusing their position.)

Richard J. wrote:
Plus, unlike some speaking in favor of fansubs, you didn't try to make some odd "Anime should be free!" argument.


Well... I'm sort of on the line there. I do feel that art being seen by more people is better, so my mindset is in the "I wish it were free so more people would watch it" bracket. But at the same time I acknowledge the immense cost and effort that goes not only into the anime, but into the source material it's often derived from.

Richard J. wrote:
I am curious though, how many English anime dubs have you watched lately?


The pool of potential voice actors is so much smaller in the US. So even though some of them might be really good, hearing the same actor in almost every series begins to grate on my ears, though not always literally. I got really sick of Spike Spencer's constant whiny appearances (is that really the right word for something aural though?) a few years back and vowed never to watch dubs again.

However a few times at video nights friends have insisted on the dub, which is why I have heard some more recently than that. Most recently would have been Kiddy Grade which wasn't so hot. Before that was Hellsing which I found to be okay, but not exceptional.

I'm not going to say I'm not biased though. I am of the opinion that when a company makes a show, it already has a good idea of who they want to cast in each role. So I see the US companies dubbing anime as discrediting the initial cast selection made by the Makers. I don't think anyone could possibly outdo the Hirano Aya / Sugita Tomokazu pairing in Haruhi, no matter how many years they practiced their lines for. Some dynamics are simply irreplaceable.

I have the same opinion with film though, in that I won't watch a film dubbed into English if its source language wasn't English. So it's not just an anime bias, I just feel that art should be appreciated in its original form.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:39 pm Reply with quote
chocho wrote:

Richard J. wrote:
I am curious though, how many English anime dubs have you watched lately?


The pool of potential voice actors is so much smaller in the US. So even though some of them might be really good, hearing the same actor in almost every series begins to grate on my ears, though not always literally. I got really sick of Spike Spencer's constant whiny appearances (is that really the right word for something aural though?) a few years back and vowed never to watch dubs again..


I don't think I've seen him in anything in AGES. Yuo need to come up for air more often. Bang Zoom still seems to pay the most attention to casting over the original actors to the point they often cast the same American VA's over certain Japanese VA's regularly. Then American fans complain they're hearing the same VA's over & over without realizing certain VA's do pop up a lot in Japan. So say Bang Zoom lands five titles with Akira Ishida in them & cast Liam O'Brien in all 5, American fans complain they're hearing the same VA all the time.

chocho wrote:
However a few times at video nights friends have insisted on the dub, which is why I have heard some more recently than that. Most recently would have been Kiddy Grade which wasn't so hot. Before that was Hellsing which I found to be okay, but not exceptional.

I'm not going to say I'm not biased though. I am of the opinion that when a company makes a show, it already has a good idea of who they want to cast in each role. So I see the US companies dubbing anime as discrediting the initial cast selection made by the Makers. I don't think anyone could possibly outdo the Hirano Aya / Sugita Tomokazu pairing in Haruhi, no matter how many years they practiced their lines for. Some dynamics are simply irreplaceable.

I have the same opinion with film though, in that I won't watch a film dubbed into English if its source language wasn't English. So it's not just an anime bias, I just feel that art should be appreciated in its original form.


So if you watch such a large amount of anime, you know in Japan it's also the same dozen actors popping up in a majority of the titles every season. There's a reason for the most prolific casts members in Japan numbers being double their American counterparts. I love hearing the pro's & sort of get an attitude at stuff like Wolf's Rain where they brag (in Newtype) about casting unknowns for the leads. I don't care what their excuses are, to me it's cheaping out.

So would you feel the same about American films into Japanese? Akira Ishida playing one of the Sopranos? Kappei Yamahuchi as Bugs Bunny? Yeah Kingdom Hearts is a Japanese product, but many of the roles are originally American, so Hiroaki Hirata as Captain Jack Sparrow? It seems the Japanese have no problem whatsoever dubbing our stuff.
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:52 pm Reply with quote
chocho wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
Plus, if you've ever seen an OVA fansubbed, then you're watching something that the Japanese HAD to pay to see even once since OVAs are basically straight to DVD.


Indeed. I'm fully aware that both OVAs and movies are far from free. As for cable, I find it to be a bit of a grey area. I have cable myself. If I watch it for 10 hours in the month it costs $60. If I watch it for 100 hours in the month it costs $60. So from my point of view anything on cable is free to watch. It's not like DVD rentals where you pay cash each time you walk out of the store with a stack of DVDs.



Actually, it isn't free because you are still paying $60.
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DRWii



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The first is a prequel, the next two will be in between the series time line, the last will be a new final final ending.


Actually, the first three films are all going to be an alternate version of the series, but the last one is still a new ending. I'm a big fan, so I really can't wait for them to be released (although many people have waited much longer than me).
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zrdb



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
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Location: Who-me? Am I supposed to be somewhere?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:54 pm Reply with quote
Jeez-I can hear all the crap about the "evils of fansubbing" now!! All that I'll say on the subject is this; I download an awful lot of anime fansubs and I've even subbed some stuff myself-fansubs are out there and are a part of the landscape now-like it or leave it. So if partaking of them makes me an evil person-then so be it, me and all the countless others who do it-we are legion!!
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leatherman



Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Calgary Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:36 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Quote:
The best anime in the world is ALPS NO SHOJO HEIDI, done by miyazaki and takahata and the only country it wasnt shown was in USA


There's actually an R1 french language release available here in Canada, fyi


I sort of wanted to point out that sure, it was released in Canada, but that's not the US. We have enough problems with being called the 51 state without ourselves promoting the idea. Very Happy

As for the fansub argument about the Japanese getting to watch it for free, cable and satellite do cost money, regardless of where you live. Unless you think everybody steals said satellite and cable, which is another falsity.

Quote:

And as has been said in every argument like this, Japanese TV isn't any more free than TV in other countries, especially the satellite PPV channels that carry a lot of late-night anime. However, I still have to disbelieve those who claim, "fansubs are killing DVD sales in Japan because Japanese fans don't mind a bit of hardsubbed English text on their free anime," as if the end of fansubbing would magically revive Japanese DVD sales. Newsflash: fansubbers have to get their raw materials from somewhere, and it sure as heck isn't directly from "DeatH_sTuNNeR_125"'s basement, despite what the "Raw Provider" credits in fansubs tell you.

Agreed. And I would imagine that downloading a TV show in Japan is no different than downloading a TV show in North America. Somebody records it off the tv onto their computer, removes commercials, and posts it online. So I can't see the north american fansubbers validly being blamed for that.

As for the censorship thing. I agree that the responsibility is completely on the parents for making sure that their kids are not watching things that they [the parents] find objectionable. However, north america is the blame somebody else society. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. Look at the number of lawsuits in the US, and starting to happen in Canada as well. (I don't know if this is the case in Mexico. Sorry Mexico. Don't hear from you that often.) If you need an example of this, look at the next vending machine you go to. It will have one of those do not rock stickers on it to prevent lawsuits from morons that want to try to either a) legitimately receive their purchased food that has become stuck, or b) try to rip off the machine by shaking something loose by rocking it back and forth, and end up crushing or killing themselves. (I believe that there was one case of that in Canada in McGill University, but I can't be sure without extensive looking into it.) Anyway, continuing on with my point, a company like Disney which has always been known for child friendly programming would be smart to not release a title that they might catch flak for from a great many people, just because "little johnny is a good boy that can't watch anything that might make him think", rather than to release it and have their reputation destroyed. That would mean the end of their business, or at least severely limit the amount of trust parents have in the company.

Using older cartoons to show they've done it before isn't really a good example either. Both Disney and Warner Brothers have released propaganda cartoons about WWII, making fun of the Japanese and Germans. The Flintstones used to advertise cigarettes. Times change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

Quote:
fansubs are out there and are a part of the landscape now-like it or leave it.

Unfortunately you're probably right. Like any other form of theft, because of greed, there will always be a market for the ill-gotten goods.
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Andromeda



Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:56 am Reply with quote
"Oh fansubs; ideally people would just download a few eps to see what the show's like then stop, but that's not going to happen. "

What do mean? That's the way I do it, in the rare cases I do do it, except for Sailor Stars, and that's only because that puppy is NEVER getting licensed in the U.S. by this point (I'd watch PGSM fansubbed too, if only I could find the time and patience to download it).

Azumanga Daioh - watched an episode or two, liked it a lot, it came out a few months later. Not only did I end up buying the entire series of DVDs (except the first one, which was actually a gift - with artbox, WOOT), I also bummed the manga off a pal and plan to someday buy that as well. I fell in love with the dub, too, because of Osaka's hilarious and appropriate dub voice (even if it did kind of throw me a little after reading the manga first and "hearing" her in a Brooklynite accent). This is a success story for me; an obscure series I would never have checked out because I'd never have heard of it, but then a friend had a good internet connection, and you know the rest. I love the little liner notes booklets and the reversible covers and the cute artbox and the little pins that came with the series too.

Excel Saga - watched maybe three or four episodes. Bought it immediately when it came out, bought the next two volumes when they were still at Best Buy, bought the final three volumes on sale at Right Stuf. Still haven't gotten to the second half of the series, but I love the crazy little thing. Even if I can only watch about one episode at a time before my head attempts to explode. I even kinda like the dub, even though Excel is MUCH cuter and less annoying in Japanese (probably because I don't yet speak fluent Japanese, heh). I like or love most of the other voices, and it's actually kind of fun being able to basically see two different versions of the show (ADV does change around the occasional joke to make sense in English, something I actually don't mind in most cases. They also sometimes add jokes, which is fine with me so long as they work in context). Also, I REALLY appreciated the removable "ADVidnotes" pop-ups, which beat the hell out of the "let's crowd the screen with subs" notes in the fansubs, but were just as informative and sometimes far more so, and occasionally even more entertaining. I also will admit an almost fangirlish glee for the cool stuff they did for the menus (they modeled each DVD menu off one of the episodes, and had a lot of silly little Easter Egg features or other fun things like Excel eventually making a crack about indecisiveness if you don't pick something soon enough, that amused me greatly, not to mention occasionally a game or something), as well as some of the silly little inserts like the tapping sumo game. (In fact, that's the one thing that disappointed me about the Azumanga Daioh release: the lack of ADVidnotes was OK given the nice booklets and I liked the reversible covers that broke down the episodes into the individual chapters and had fun, well-illsutrated scenes, but the menu was exactly the same for every volume and they didn't have any Easter Eggs that I found, or much extras to speak of at all, really).

Additionally, I have seen a great deal of one or two episode fansub screenings at local cons, and have discovered some real overlooked gems that way. For instance, the anime version of Cheeky Angel, which was really old but amusing (and which led me to start buying the manga when it came out), and the lovely, mellow little fantasy slice of life series that got released here as "Someday's Dreamers", which I bought the entire series of DVDs for (including the artbox version of vol.1), because it was just that cute and soothing to watch.

Conversely, one or two episodes warned me desperately away from .hack//SIGN (except the soundtrack, which though it ain't exactly Yoko Kanno, is very lovely and which I did buy when I found out it had been released here, hence supporting the only buy-worthy/experience-worthy thing about the series to me), Love Hina, and Piano (Good. God. Could you come up with a more slow-moving, pointless slice of life series than the first two episodes of Piano? I doubt it. I sincerely, sincerely doubt it. I recall seeing that screening with a friend of mine, and the only reason we didn't walk out on it was we got into riffing on it MST3K-style in the back row of a very empty little screening room. When comments regarding the profuse, random arthouse shots of flowers in the rain being "clearly, alien lifeforms creating amnesia in the general populace, DESTROY THE FLOWERS! THEY'RE EVIL!" actually seems more entertaining or interesting than the show itself, IMO, the show's got a few problems. More than a few, in fact). But, I really did only see one or two episodes of any of the ones I didn't enjoy, and I could swear .hack//SIGN was actually a legal sub, not a fansub, that somebody happened to bring in, so yeah.

Shows I like though, I buy as soon they're a.) licensed and b.) I can afford them. Unless they air on Adult Swim so often that I've seen them a million times, like Cowboy Bebop, which I dearly loved right up until about 2006, and then stopped even watching. Or if, like Witch Hunter Robin, they're kind of expensive enough that I have to wait a while to buy the whole thing (although, conversely, the whole I bought the first volume of WHR was I saw the mid-season or so plot twist about Robin being declared a you-know-what, which intrigued me).

Still, I watch them on a channel my family pays to receive, so yeah. And should GitS:SAC ever get truly inexpensive somewhere, I will probably buy it. The fact that I can watch it for cheaper on TV (while still being legal) is the only reason I put it off, because I do know they come with some nice extras apparently. Although it irks me that the anamorphic widescreen version - the version they pretty obviously air on Adult Swim - has to be so much for, for really just the option of viewing it in widescreen.

I'll cop to buying the WHR first volume just for the crazy number of extra stuff that came with the artbox version, though, so perhaps I am a particular subset of fan; the kind who not only gives dubs a chance, but appreciates the extra features and stuff that come with DVDs (the art cels and nice box and cool shot glass - unfortunately since broken, but oh well - made that thing well worth buying IMO, even without the mediocre but hey FREE soundtrack and T-shirt that came with it and the decent episode count). I mean, I even bought, sight unseen, the first volume of Comic Party, and I thought that anime was boring as hell when I actually saw it (except Taichi's laugh, which was highly amusing even in the dub), I actually have never quite gotten myself to regret paying money for it, because it came with a bajilion disc extras (subtitled Japanese seiyuu interview, omake short film with sub or dub options, etc.), a cute little autographed pencil board and the most awesome artbox in American anime release history. No, seriously. Even knowing that the series mostly bores me to tears, if I had to go back in time and choose again, I would still pay that $28 all over again just to have the box. I can say this of probably no other DVD series I have ever bought, even the ones that had pretty nice boxes like Someday's Dreamers or WHR or Chrono Crusade*. The thing comes with a cel-like plastic slipcover that just... I don't know. It's different and cool. Like the tins that some series (FMA and GitS:SAC, appropriately enough) come with, only even more unique and nifty somehow. Maybe it's the "occasional cel-collector" in me**, but I absolutely loved that box and still do. If I ever sell off the DVD itself, I am bloody well keeping the box!

I think though that if more companies went to the effort that ADV went to for Excel Saga and that Bandai(?) went to for WHR, making DVDs with tons of extra disc features and Easter Eggs and such, maybe more anime would sell well. Then again, Azumanga sold pretty well even without too awfully many extras (though they did have feelies... namely, the little booklets and the pins), so maybe it really does depend on the series. But seriously, I hope more companies do more extras in their future releases. Even if it means the average Best Buy anime DVD price jumps from $20 or so to $34 or so, I'd go for it, especially on first volumes.

-Andromeda

*(huh, never did buy the rest of that series, come to think of it, but then, from the sounds of it, the first volume was less serious and more fun and I already bought and liked the manga which is supposed to have a happier ending anyway, so whatever. I did like the extras/ menus - totally dug the '20s newspaper style - and yes, goddammnit, I liked the dub on that, the fact that they used period '20s slang was an appropriate move, I don't care that the Japanese writers never bothered to do the equivalent in Japanese, it makes sense, and I don't know what anybody was complaining about with the alleged incomprehensibility, I understood it just fine, and thought it gave a nice, unique, appropriate flavor to it - something the subs couldn't have given me, come to think of it, professional or otherwise).

** (I have exactly 7, two of which were "art cels" that came with the WHR box, one of which was a matted Trigun laser cel because it was kinda cool and only cost ten bucks, and four of which are apparently actual production cels, from, respectively: some random part of Sailor Moon that featured Minako playing cards and smirking with a very fun expression; Sailor Moon Super S TV series at some point that featured the Amazoness Quartet -it's of the green-haired one of them, Vesu-Vesu I think?; some random widescreen Tenchi Muyo feature with Mihoshi annoying the crap out of some green-haired woman; and Cardcaptor Sakura, presumably the TV series, in whatever episode that particular, cute little yellow dress costume was worn in. That last one is the nicest, on account of HOLY CRAP DOES MADHOUSE KNOW HOW TO DRAW PRETTY. Also, it didn't stick to anything before it got to me for a change, heh. BTW, PM me if you are so obsessed with CCS that you can identify which episode it is by the costume she's wearing, or if you can identify any of the other seemingly random scenes my cels are apparently from in those other anime, because I am honestly curious where they were all supposed to have been used...)

***Yeah, I know. I'm a total nerd, it seems. At least I only nerd out like that every so often, though! :P
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Rob P



Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 4
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:37 am Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:
So would you feel the same about American films into Japanese? Akira Ishida playing one of the Sopranos? Kappei Yamahuchi as Bugs Bunny? Yeah Kingdom Hearts is a Japanese product, but many of the roles are originally American, so Hiroaki Hirata as Captain Jack Sparrow? It seems the Japanese have no problem whatsoever dubbing our stuff.


I wonder if there's a Japanese website where its members are vigorously debating "Shrek: Dub vs. Sub?" or "Shrek: Fansub vs. R2 Sub?"
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HitokiriShadow
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:38 pm Reply with quote
Andromeda wrote:
"Oh fansubs; ideally people would just download a few eps to see what the show's like then stop, but that's not going to happen. "

What do mean? That's the way I do it, in the rare cases I do do it, except for Sailor Stars, and that's only because that puppy is NEVER getting licensed in the U.S. by this point (I'd watch PGSM fansubbed too, if only I could find the time and patience to download it).


You are the exception, not the norm. All the cheap bastards who never buy DVDs will never do what you are doing, and they are the problem.


Quote:
I think though that if more companies went to the effort that ADV went to for Excel Saga and that Bandai(?) went to for WHR, making DVDs with tons of extra disc features and Easter Eggs and such, maybe more anime would sell well. Then again, Azumanga sold pretty well even without too awfully many extras (though they did have feelies... namely, the little booklets and the pins), so maybe it really does depend on the series. But seriously, I hope more companies do more extras in their future releases. Even if it means the average Best Buy anime DVD price jumps from $20 or so to $34 or so, I'd go for it, especially on first volumes.


I don't think that's really going to improve anything and raising the price will just hurt as people will be want to buy it even less, regardless of the extras or number of episodes per disc (see Fruits Basket).

Extras are exactly that: extras. It should only be an issue when deciding whether to shell out more money for the limited edition. Not buying anime and blaming it on 'not enough extras' is simply making an excuse to be cheap and not buy the show that you already watched illegally.
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Richard J.
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Joined: 11 Aug 2006
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Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Rob P wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
So would you feel the same about American films into Japanese? Akira Ishida playing one of the Sopranos? Kappei Yamahuchi as Bugs Bunny? Yeah Kingdom Hearts is a Japanese product, but many of the roles are originally American, so Hiroaki Hirata as Captain Jack Sparrow? It seems the Japanese have no problem whatsoever dubbing our stuff.


I wonder if there's a Japanese website where its members are vigorously debating "Shrek: Dub vs. Sub?" or "Shrek: Fansub vs. R2 Sub?"
Um, that was CCSYueh who wrote what you're quoting, but I do agree with the sentiment.

@ Andromeda: You're a very good example of what fansub watchers used to be like or at least more like. Although I wasn't around at the time, people have written here about the days of VHS fansubbing and it's pretty clear that the majority actually went and bought the official products when they came out. (Accuracy of this statement is not guaranteed. However, the anecdotal evidence would seem to support it.)

With the advent of digital fansubs, a portion of the fan base decided that anime wasn't like other entertainment goods, but rather that it was art that should be free! (I actually think it is a form of art but I don't subscribe to the idea that anything should be free unless the creator, the person whose money and labor produced it, says it should be.)

Basically, a not insignificant portion of the anime fanbase in North America and other countries, stopped buying or never has bought the official release. This has lead to a stagnant and possibly contracting anime market in North America especially. If something doesn't happen to change the situation, it's quite possible that the smaller anime companies here will go under and the larger ones will reduce their number of licences.

Interestingly enough, several of your comments support a theory of mine that people who like English dubs on some level are more likely to buy the official product. Anyway, the truth of the matter is if all the people who sit back and make excuses for why they don't buy any official DVDs were to start, it probably wouldn't take too long for the overall price to drop a bit because the market would increase by a nice percentage.

By the way, I'm glad you liked Someday's Dreamers. It's an underappreciated gem for sure. (Have you checked out the manga? The first series is closely tied to the manga but pretty different and not as good in my opinion, but the second is shaping up to be a rather interesting story.)

Anyway, I personally thank you for supporting the industry and hope you continue to enjoy your anime for a good long time.

@ HitokiriShadow: I thought Fruits Basket sold very well for Funimation. Confused
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ikillchicken
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Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:
With the advent of digital fansubs, a portion of the fan base decided that anime wasn't like other entertainment goods, but rather that it was art that should be free! (I actually think it is a form of art but I don't subscribe to the idea that anything should be free unless the creator, the person whose money and labor produced it, says it should be.)


I get a little tired of the asumption that all people who watch fansubs think this. As you pointed out it is totally ridiculous and someone who thinks this is probably of questionable intellegence. Keep in mind alot of people have no such delusions and simply arent willing to pay for something they can get for free.

Quote:
Basically, a not insignificant portion of the anime fanbase in North America and other countries, stopped buying or never has bought the official release. This has lead to a stagnant and possibly contracting anime market in North America especially. If something doesn't happen to change the situation, it's quite possible that the smaller anime companies here will go under and the larger ones will reduce their number of licences.


Can you actually back that up with fact? Fansubs have been around as long as the industry itself. I actually think fansubs have helped the industry alot by increasing the fanbase, It obviously also costs the industry alot of money though. I wont try and argue that it averages out as a positive. However, even if fansubs have always hurt profits, is it actually getting worse? Or is it just the same as its always been?
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HitokiriShadow
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:58 pm Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:

@ HitokiriShadow: I thought Fruits Basket sold very well for Funimation. Confused


From what I hear, that was only after they dropped the price to typical. Before that, despite 6-7 episodes per disc and a bunch of extras, it wasn't selling very well.

ikillchicken wrote:

I get a little tired of the asumption that all people who watch fansubs think this. As you pointed out it is totally ridiculous and someone who thinks this is probably of questionable intellegence. Keep in mind alot of people have no such delusions and simply arent willing to pay for something they can get for free.


No one claims that ALL fansub watchers are like that, just most of them.

Quote:
Quote:
Basically, a not insignificant portion of the anime fanbase in North America and other countries, stopped buying or never has bought the official release. This has lead to a stagnant and possibly contracting anime market in North America especially. If something doesn't happen to change the situation, it's quite possible that the smaller anime companies here will go under and the larger ones will reduce their number of licences.


Can you actually back that up with fact? Fansubs have been around as long as the industry itself. I actually think fansubs have helped the industry alot by increasing the fanbase, It obviously also costs the industry alot of money though. I wont try and argue that it averages out as a positive. However, even if fansubs have always hurt profits, is it actually getting worse? Or is it just the same as its always been?


There is a significant difference between the fansubs of old, which certainly did help the industry, and the digisubs of today.

As for proof? Series have been licensed based on fansub popularity and then failed miserably when the fansub leeches refused to buy them. Rozen Maiden was quite popular on the internet, but its not peforming as well as expected and unless sales increase, the OVA probably won't get licensed. Every time an anime gets licensed, many fans will go into an angry rage that they will have to look slightly harder for their fansub or hope that some other group does it in the event that it was only being subbed by one of the few 'ethical' fansubbers. DVD sales have been going down, but fansubs seem to be doing as good as ever.
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