Forum - View topic
NEWS: Singapore's Odex Directors Speak as Protests Continue


Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kokuryu



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:16 am Reply with quote
Wow, the Singapore police take anime fans seriously - 4 buses of riot police for a park gathering!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nerei



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:41 am Reply with quote
That shows you how much Singapore values the freedom that it preaches, lol.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DmonHiro



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 1918
Location: Romania, Bucharest

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:42 am Reply with quote
The Odex saga indeed. This is actually kinda like an anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
FrozenEntity



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:47 am Reply with quote
four buses of riot police, wow. That's kinda like a compliment though. At least they didn't think them a pointless force and send like two.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:43 am Reply with quote
With the japanese creators and producers involved, you'd think fans would take this more seriously- while Odex should make sure they don't go overboard with this [and if they get an independant auditor to watch over things, and avoid profitting from it, they should be okay], there's something kind of sketchy and stupid about "fans" organizing protests to protect their "rights" to download cartoons illegally.

There's no "right" involved with it at all...... I seriously hope domestic fandom looks at things from a more serious/realistic angle when japanese producers go after bootleggers on a larger scale here. While file sharing is a problem to a degree, more attention should be paid to fansubbers to deal in licensed materials like Dattebayo, or those who are offering pay-for-downloads of licensed anime like Narutofan.

Also, as fans, if we don't want to see kids getting sued for downloading anime, then we should be more dilligent about letting kids know they shouldn't download anime. If more was said about why folks shouldn't do that, I think it would be less common. A lot of kids simply aren't aware they're doing anything wrong, and while some might not care anyways, there are some who would stop if they knew. Fandom is full of misinformation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
child of Lilith



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 137
Location: Egg of Lilith ( the black moon)

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:35 pm Reply with quote
What Odex needs to do is start promoting their shows and improve the quality of their releases. If illegal fan subs are better quality then what Odex puts out for legitimate release then no matter how hard Odex tries to crack down on fan subs it wont do them any good. If you put out a product that’s inferior in everyway to what people can get for free then you really have no one to blame but yourself when people choose that over what your offering.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mskala



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Waterloo, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:16 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
there's something kind of sketchy and stupid about "fans" organizing protests to protect their "rights" to download cartoons illegally.


I think a great many fans honestly believe that downloading fansubs is legal. They just won't hear anyone say that it's against the law. So from that point of view, they honestly believe that they have not just the moral, but the legal, right to do the things they do, and then it makes sense to try to defend that right, and to be outraged when someone infringes it.

Paploo wrote:
Also, as fans, if we don't want to see kids getting sued for downloading anime, then we should be more dilligent about letting kids know they shouldn't download anime. If more was said about why folks shouldn't do that, I think it would be less common. A lot of kids simply aren't aware they're doing anything wrong, and while some might not care anyways, there are some who would stop if they knew. Fandom is full of misinformation.


There's an important distinction here: illegal isn't the same as wrong. I'm not sure I'd agree that downloading is "wrong." What I do wish kids would be told, though, is that downloading is illegal. Choose to do it and you're choosing to break the law. Choosing to break the law may be the right thing to do - not all laws SHOULD be obeyed - but it's just stupid to do it without knowing.

Fans put forward a lot of arguments for why fansubs are morally acceptable (such as the "It's good advertising for the eventual commercial release, in the case of unlicensed material" line of thinking), and those arguments may well be right. Maybe it IS okay to download fansubs. I do it sometimes and I don't feel guilty about it. But just because it's morally acceptable doesn't mean it's legal. It really isn't legal - no, not even in the case of unlicensed shows. Not even for non-commercial use. Not even if you put a lot of work into, and attempt to claim a copyright on, the fan translation. The whole enterprise is fundamentally a violation of copyright law, even if it's morally acceptable. What we're seeing with Odex is the collision between fandom's ethics and what copyright law actually says.

Something similar is happening on Livejournal these days, with members of fandom on there (mostly Harry Potter fandom rather than anime fandom) angry at Livejournal for Livejournal's refusal to defend fans' supposed right to break the obscenity laws. The level of venom I encountered when I wrote about that in my Web log, was amazing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kiyoko



Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Posts: 124
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:20 pm Reply with quote
kokuryu wrote:
Wow, the Singapore police take anime fans seriously - 4 buses of riot police for a park gathering!


According to a Yahoo news article:

Quote:
Public protests are rare in Singapore, where outdoor demonstrations are banned and any public gathering of more than four people requires a permit.


So it sounds like more of an issue with any sort of protest, anime fans or not, will bring out lots of riot police.

Article Link:
http://news.yahoo.com/​s/​nm/​20070907/​od_uk_nm/​oukoe_uk_singapore_p​rotest_anime;​_ylt=​Ahx0BPnj.​uXaozmBWGMKYIWs0NUE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:26 pm Reply with quote
I'm suppose I'm just mostly dissappointed that so many fans love anime, but so few respect the rights of the creators who make anime and manga. Fandom's ethics are very loose, if they exist at all.

I know that a great deal of product release in North America is vastly superior to fansubs, and 100% official, but you still see people bootlegging, or even downloading ripped DVD versions of said superior product from companies with years of trusted, quality releases like Media Blasters,Animeigo, ADV and Bandai. I think fans should support the efforts of legitimate, official companies who make great products more, and try to fluff up reasons that it's "okay" to rip them off less.

I think it's harsh to judge Odex based on their english subs when their primary focus is on chinese subs and dubs. They often include english dubs as well, the same ones we get, and VCD is a popular format in Asia. Their release also often include 13 episodes or so, so Singapore anime fans were getting a good value content-wise.

http://www.odex.com.sg/​products.​php They do offer a wide variety of titles.

You can't expect a company to sit back, and let people bootleg, as it does interfere with their business- from watching US companies lately, who are outsourcing productions overseas more and more [including to Odex, which Bandai andGeneon have done], lower DVD sales does cause problems. They can't afford the same level of production expenses, which means they have to cut corners somewhere. And this isn't companies who are offering horrible quality dvd's- it's people like Geneon who have done such beatiful work on titles like Haibane Renmei.

With a smaller market, it must be even tougher for Odex. The wide availability of bootlegs makes many fans scoff at buying *any* legitimate product, even if it is of the best quality ever. Just look at all the people watching anime on youtube.

With Geneon switching it's distribution and marketing to ADV due to decline in the market, dubs being outsourced or not made at all, Central Park Media in hibernation, it's very unrealistic to say that bootleggin isn't hurting the industry,,
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DmonHiro



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 1918
Location: Romania, Bucharest

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:45 pm Reply with quote
Well.....Odex is wrong for it's "iron fists" campain against downloaders. The fans are wrong because, well.....fansubs ARE ilegal no matter how you look at it. I just don't see why people can't understand that. There may be hunders of reasons for fansubs to exist...but they are still ilegal. It's not like I CARE since I download a lot of anime, but that is my choice......I'm not trying to find excuses. I can't get the anime I want anywhere else...so I'm downloading it from the internet, it's really that simple. Sure, there are some shows that I have downloaded and found to be TOTAL crap, but there are some anime out there that I couldn't wait to get the dvd's of. Yes, I've seen them......but actually having the dvd's is a great feeling. I don't thing it's my moral obligation or anything since I wathced the fansub......but the dvd's look SOOOOO good in my room. Can't wait to buy the Nanoha DVD's Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:10 pm Reply with quote
mskala wrote:

I think a great many fans honestly believe that downloading fansubs is legal. They just won't hear anyone say that it's against the law. So from that point of view, they honestly believe that they have not just the moral, but the legal, right to do the things they do, and then it makes sense to try to defend that right, and to be outraged when someone infringes it..


The most common excuse my teen hears from her friends who download anime is "I'm a poor student with no money. I can't afford to buy anime so I download titles like Gravitation I know have been licensed for years." Or "I'm already halfway thru the anime, I'm not stopping because it's licensed." So if I want to drive a 2008 truck instead of my 2000, I should just go to a lot to test drive one & not bring it back because I really want one, but I can't afford a new car?

Pretty much everyone has access to home video/dvds which all state plainly in several languages the item in the viewer's player is intended for personal use only-mass showings require the permission of the copyright holder. Anyone can understand that means the fansubs being posted on the net for downloads are illegal in the same way drivers know the speed limit yet still speed bacause the cop isn't there to stop them & if they do get the ticket, they probably protest vehemently they weren't speeding, or why isn't the cop out catching real criminals rather than speeders?
It's more we've gotten away with it for years, why can't it continue this way? Yeah, Denny's used to give free meals on people's birthdays, but that ended yrs ago in my area, Most stores had pretty generous return policies in the past but user abuse forced them to tighten up. I worked with a guy who BRAGGED he was one of the reasons Lane Bryant changed their :If you're not happy, return it whether you have a receipt or not: because his wife would wear an outfit for a year & 2 & when it wore out, he'd take it back--if they didn't want him to do something like that, they wouldn't have had that policy. Forget normal wear & tear & the fact his wife had gotten her use out of it.. I listened to a co-worker talking to her daughter on the phone 10 yrs ago about pinning a prom dress to fit so they could return it after the prom--now most stores in my area will not take returns on prom dresses.
The abuse of a few ruins it for everyone else.


mskala wrote:


There's an important distinction here: illegal isn't the same as wrong. I'm not sure I'd agree that downloading is "wrong." What I do wish kids would be told, though, is that downloading is illegal. Choose to do it and you're choosing to break the law. Choosing to break the law may be the right thing to do - not all laws SHOULD be obeyed - but it's just stupid to do it without knowing.


You're suggesting copyright law SHOULD be disobeyed? It's not yours, don't take it doesn't work?

Safeway had a commercial in the 1980's--You work an honest day. You want an honest deal.
I work hard for my money & feel I deserve my pay. I would be very upset if someone else took my work & tried to pass it off as theirs so it appeared I was slacking off. Most of the people I see downloading use the excuse they can't afford to buy all the anime they want to view (do without. What a novel concept! Many of our ancestors used it).
Or they wouldn't buy the anime otherwise (Then why are you wasting your time downloading it? There are many more productive things you could do than watch an anime you're not really interested in just because you finished all the ones you wanted to see & "There's nothing else on")
"I want to preview the series" Movie trailers are abouit 5 minutes. Lots of dvds have trailers on them for previews. Newtype sends out dvds with every issue with a free ep. Many fites now offer the first ep for free. A preview is a PREVIEW. Watching an entire series to see if it's worth buying ISN'T a preview, it's watching a series. "But what if it ends badly?!" Oh well. That's yhe way it goes. If I go out to dinner maybe everythings perfect except one item isn't to my taste, I would never refuse to pay for the meal over one item. In fact, when one goes out to eat, one is pretty well stuck--You may love Pat & Oscar's chicken so you order chicken at Olive Garden & don't care for it--still have to pay.

There is also a difference between the maker offering a preview & the viewer taking it. If Starbucks sets out a tray of samples, of course one can take one as a free preview. Grab the drink they just set up on the counter for the person who bought it & take a sip as a "free preview", no one's going to be too happy about it.

I'm sure you don't feel a tinge of guilt over downloading, It's that whole "everyone else is doing it, they won't notice me" or "The anime company isn't losing any money on this"
But they are. If you didn't download that ep, but instead bought the first dvd to see if you wanted to buy the rest of the show, they've made their money off that dvd. Or do the rental thing-most of the net rentals seem pretty stocked on anime.
If I don't want to spend the price of a movie ticket in the theater, I wait a few months until it comes out on dvd. If I don't want to buy it, I rent it or I may wait even longer for the price to drop or to buy a used rental copy. Why should anime fans expect anime to work differently?

Just because you've gotten the milk for free all these years doesn't mean it will remain free forever.

Some people get a thrill over perverting things for kids. I remember a christmas light display I saw some years back where the person who made the display decided it would be amusing to enhance the Pink Panther's anatomy (only in lights so they didn't alter the original poster) It might be funny to a 20-something with no kids, but I was just sad to think of some poor kid seeing it.
And that's why doing porn fanstories needs to tread softly. Share it with your friends, but there's no need to post your fanart of Harry Potter & whoever where an 8 yr old can google it. Remember when you were that age & how you would have felt or how you'd feel having to explain it to your 5 yr old sibling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:54 pm Reply with quote
Re:the whole anime is expensive thing

Many libraries DO stock anime and manga. If you get your anime and manga at your local library, not only will you get it for free in a perfectly legal way, you'd be supporting the local library system- the more a library is used, the more funding it'll get.

Also, unlike websites, a library only has *one* copy of a given book/dvd. If it gets popular, they'll buy MORE. Libraries let you have material in a way that DOES result in the companies who have created getting a part in their profits. And since it's loaned out to you, unliked downloads, you don't keep it forever, and might end up getting your own copy someday. It's a perfectly fair system


There's also used/pre-viewed dvd's, which can be DIRT cheap. I have probably over 100 anime VHS I have paid 99 cents or less for, either at video stores or on Ebay. You don't have to havea credit card to order on Ebay either- you can use money orders, available at any bank or post office. It's a very cheap, fun way to get lots and lots of anime in a legal fashion- just watch fora good deal, check user feedback, and make sure it's a legit product, and suddenly you'll have a growing anime collection.

And once you can afford anime at retail prices- there's a TON of titles at marked down Suggested Retail Prices-
-CPM, Bandai, ADV and Media Blasters offer dozens of titles in a 9.99 to 14.98 price range. Geneon also has their "signature series" line of cheaper DVD's
- Boxsets- Media Blasters, ADV, CPM, Bandai and others do offer value priced dvd boxsets that can bring the price per dvd down to 10 bucks or less- the Giant Robo boxset is 25 bucks for 4 dvd's- that's only about 6.50 a disc, and that's before discounts!
-Retailer Discounts- new releases? Most brick and online retailers will kick 5-10 bucks [or more] off the price of a new anime dvd during the first few months/weeks of it's release. Also, if you watch you can find lots of promotions- 6.88 anime dvd's at Walmart of older overstock titles, 2/30 promotions on hit titles at DVD stores, or special events, like how Manga Ent is offering tehir Essence of Anime dvd's just about everywhere in some kind of cheapo special/promotion- lots of great titles like Read or Die and Perfect Blue.

There's TONS of ways to enjoy anime without ripping off the hardwork of anime companies. And the cheapness/availability of Manga just about everywhere makes it silly to try to justify your downloading of that- especially with the prominence and large push of manga and graphic novels in libraries across North America.

ps- also, the wait isn't that long for new titles- sometimes we get things almost simultaneoulsy, and if it's popular enough in Japan, we'll get a DVD release just as soon as the japanese one is done [or during it.... which is part of the wait- anime companies in Japan usually want foriegn companies to wait till after they're done broadcasting- which is the problem many japanese creators have with YouTube, which has resulted in alot of japanese fans bootlegging]

In the meantime, there's hundreds of titles available *right now* that you haven't seen, some of them interesting and fantastic, and worth your time checking out. Older titles also tend to be available for cheaper, so check those out while you wait for Shiny Toon Z.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DmonHiro



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 1918
Location: Romania, Bucharest

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:16 pm Reply with quote
OK fine....here's an PRO-download example. One of my favorite shows is Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha. I'll skip the preview part, cause if I had only seen the first 2-3 episodes of it, I would not have continued. If I hadn't downloaded THE WHOLE SHOW 3 years ago, to this day I would not have known how it ended (OK, it didn't, they made a sequal.....and a sequal to the sequal). So, while I do belibe it's wrong to download an anime you could very well buy, I see NOTHING wrong with downloading a show that has not been released yet, including if it qwas licensed but it's taking is sweet time getting here.
And what's with this "we get it simultanious if it's popular in Japan" crap? Let me stick to my Nanoha example. MEGA popular in Japan (not many shows get a THIRD season), here in USA we don't even have ONE DVD of the fisrt season (that began airing in 2004). So don't give me this paralel relese crap cause it's not true. (It is sometimes true for manga, but almost never true for anime)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:31 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:

And what's with this "we get it simultanious if it's popular in Japan" crap? Let me stick to my Nanoha example. MEGA popular in Japan (not many shows get a THIRD season), here in USA we don't even have ONE DVD of the fisrt season (that began airing in 2004). So don't give me this paralel relese crap cause it's not true. (It is sometimes true for manga, but almost never true for anime)


What I said is we'll get it simultaneously *sometimes*. So you have some stuff like Street Fighter Generations, Highlander, Ninja Scroll TV, Grrl Power, where we get it on DVD before or when it's released in Japan. There's also Afro Samurai and a few others titles that have gotten released here first, or simulatenously with their japanese releases.

Then, if a companies coproduced an anime, you'll also tend to see it here quicker. This is the 2nd quickest for of release. This is why you tend to see Gonzo's shows released here immediately after they've been released in Japan [japanese companies don't want cross importation, so you usually don't see a US release until after]. Likewise, a lot of Sunrise's highre profile series like Eureka 7, Code Geass and Gundam Seed Destiny, which tend to start their DVD release once the japanese broadcast is done [just look at Code Geass- the last 2 episodes of season 1 are being broadcasted in Japan/released as OVA's, and we'll be getting our first DVD sometime soonish- probably between Dec and Feb]. And with Geneon's Hellsing, the only reason for the wait is getting the materials and then preparing it for solictation to the market [which btw- book publishers have to solicit to book distributors 6 months in advance. It's probably similar for DVD publishers]. We've gotten a fairly quick turn around on that title as an example.

Also, if something's a big blockbuster in Japan [like say, Full Metal Alchemist], companies will work to get it over here faster. Nanoha was popular, but was primarily popular with Otaku- it's not the big, mainstream kind of hit that Viz or Funimation can sell to Cartoon Network for and make into a best seller. In fact, as a magical girl show, it's really more of a niche show here.......

The fact is, is with licensing negociations, marketing and production, it does usually take a year for something to get moved over here.

And anyways, while you wait for a given title, it's not like there isn't tons of titles to watch in the meantime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DmonHiro



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 1918
Location: Romania, Bucharest

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:42 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:

Also, if something's a big blockbuster in Japan [like say, Full Metal Alchemist], companies will work to get it over here faster. Nanoha was popular, but was primarily popular with Otaku- it's not the big, mainstream kind of hit that Viz or Funimation can sell to Cartoon Network for and make into a best seller. In fact, as a magical girl show, it's really more of a niche show here.......
.


Wow......this is the first time I've used Nanoha in an argument and someone actually knew stuff about it......I must get some friends that watch lot's of anime like I do.... And I REALLY can't imagine Nanoha on Cartoon Netwrok. They'd have to censor half of each episode, and I'm not only talking about the "nude transformation" sequance spoiler[ In episode seven Fate get's whiped by her crazy ass mother.....]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group