Forum - View topicNEWS: Singapore's Odex Directors Speak as Protests Continue
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nightmaregenie
 Posts: 167 Location: Palmy, NZ - student central |
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What surprises me is why Odex only targets downloaders and fansubbers and not bootleggers/bootleg distributers also, which, to the best of my knowledge, are the most prolific in south east Asia next to China. I mean, what's the point in stopping people - most of whom will never consider buying anything - from downloading when actual buyers are getting bootlegs right and left?
I have read the previous threads on this case and from what I've heard from my friends also the Singaporean government don't really give a damn about bootlegs. That might have made it hard for Odex, but isn't their current attempt to get the downloaders' list just as difficult? It just seems to me they should be considering bootleggers as well as downloaders - if not making bootleggers their priority - as they are the ones actually profiting from their venture. Apparently Odex has major quality control issues not only with their English dubs, but also with their videos as well. I was kind of shocked to read about how an official distributor can actually produce worse animation quality on their products than their fansub counterparts, and the fact that the majority of their titles are only offered on VCDs (god, just what century are we living in?) doesn't seem to be helping either  .
Has Odex ever considered that there might be more than just the fansub factor contributing to their lame sales figures? I think not. As well as clamping down on illegal anime distributions, Odex should really strive to improve the quality of their products.
Not sure about the first part of the comment but I definitely agree with the fact that there IS a big difference in what the fans are offered between R1 and other regions. I have seen some R1 people getting quite worked up over the whole legality issue and here are the reasons why non-R1, particularly Asian consumers, may have a different take on it (don't know about Korea but the following applies to most Asian areas outside of Japan in terms of anime): 1. There are a whole lot of rental stores, BUT most of the things they carry are bootlegs. Individual percentages may vary but this is generally the case. 2. Where there are stores that carry the relevant titles, a huge proportion of them will be pirated VCDs (especially older series). Almost all soundtracks are pirated. 3. Where official DVDs are offered they will be devoid of any extras (as in 95% of the time) and the episode counts are per their Japanese release - that is to say, normally two, or at the most three episodes per DVD. Where original Japanese extras are offered they are, more often than not, untranslated/unsubbed. 1. and 2. puts the average consumer in a postion to choose from either downloads or bootlegs but either way they will be bashed by those with easy access to copyrighted stuff. I understand how 3. shouldn't really put people off from buying the official releases but I see a whole lot of R1 consumers complaining about having pricy DVDs for small episode counts and little extras and I just want them to see how at least American distributors are TRYING where the majority simply don't care. In all seriousness I don't support the illegal distribution of products of any kind, and luckily from where I am I don't have to either. But I 'd like to ask some of you to consider individual cases before giving others the morality lecture as this is getting really repetitive and tiresome. |
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Calculusman
 Posts: 309 Location: Virginia |
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One point that I don't think has been brought up, or at least brought up in this way (unless I missed it)
Is that those who download fansubs without ever buying the DVDs, and arguing "well, they still have a copy!" miss the point. To understand whether you're stealing something, you have to understand what is being sold. In the case of the truck dealership, they are selling a truck. If someone takes the truck, then they've lost a sale and money. In the case of anime, they are basically licensing you a copy that you can watch for personal use. They aren't selling you the actual master, they're selling you a copy. If you take a copy without paying for it, you're stealing because you're taking what they're selling - a copy. By the argument that "it's ok because I'm not taking the original," then it is never wrong to take any copy of any intellectual property. In short, there would be no intellectual property or intellectual property rights, and thus there is no longer any incentive to actually create it. As much as anime fans (or music fans or movie fans for that matter) may have a high-minded view of the industry, people aren't going to make anime, or music, or movies unless they can make money from it. Very few people are willing to put out a quality product just for the heck of it. Yes, it does happen, but your selection of what to enjoy will become extremely limited. The fact that something is digital doesn't mean that a copy is any less the owner's property. Yes, making a copy by right clicking and selecting "copy" or downloading a file may be a lot faster, easier, and cheaper than building a whole bunch of trucks on the assembly line, but fundamentally it's the same thing, as the producer of the product owns ALL copies of that product until they are sold or otherwise given away. Now, for full clarification, I do download fansubs - but only of unlicensed shows - and at least before I started watching fansubs on a larger scale starting with this past spring and summer season, I had watched a total of 4 fansubbed series. I now own or are currently buying 3 (Rumblings Hearts, Kashimashi, and Haruhi) and the 4th hasn't been licensed yet, but I would buy it if and when it is (come on Viz! Pick up I"s Pure!) I won't hit a 100% buy rate with the shows that I'm currently watching, but out of 10 shows, I'm pretty sure that I'll buy 3 (Idolmaster Xenoglossia, Sky Girls, and School Days) whenever they come over here, and a couple more (Nagasarete Airantou and Lucky Star) I may consider buying depending on my mood and current financial situation. In any case, I don't really think a 50% buy rate of things I watch is necessarily all that bad. Oh, and I think I'm a perfect example of the "good marketing" type of fansub watcher. I've said this before, but most series already out in the US I'll rent through Netflix, and if I like a show I've rented, I'll usually look (or wait) for the boxset. Meanwhile, shows that I watched in Japan - like all 3 I mentioned above - I'll typically buy volume by volume as it comes out, which does give US companies here more $$. I do stand by the argument of downloading unlicensed shows to see if there are shows that you are actually interested in buying is morally OK (though admittedly illegal when one gets down to it). However, I think that I would enjoy watching a beatdown of those who only watch fansubs and who never buy and never intend to buy. |
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Calculusman
Posts: 309 Location: Virginia |
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What may or may not be on a disc is irrelevant, once it becomes licensed, then one should buy the official release. If one wants more extras then let them know. However, just not buying something doesn't tell them what may or may not be wrong with their releases, especially if they see a lot of people downloading. They're just going to assume people are just greedy and want the show for free, and not that they're sitting on their wallets cause they don't like the release (and they are probably largely right). |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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It IS black & white. It's the downloaders who are trying to wiggle thru. "Using" an anime or tv show is VIEWING it. Once it has been viewed, it has been used. How do downloaders compensate the artists who drew it, the writers who put their ideas into the scripts, & the actors who bring it to life? Unless someone creates a pill to make one forget what one has watched & downloaders take that pill immediately after watching an episode, they can't "un-use" the anime they have used so it is EXACTLY the same as George using Lane Bryant's generous return policy from about a decade ago where if the customer was unsatisfied, they could return the item. I loved it because sometimes I would buy an item, but then not use it, so maybe 6 months later I'd take it back with the tag & everything still on it. That policy ended due to abuse from people like George.
One can't undo murder. One can't unview a piece of art one has viewed. Yes, it works. Even with theft one can pay back the person one stole from, but one can't give back a life & one can't give back that first reaction to seeing a new piece of art. Yes, there are people who can brazenly steal from others because "It's not stealing" Party crashers--the food's being served anyway, I'm just one more mouth. But you weren't invited. It wasn't meant for you. Tuff luck bunnykins.
Because you're trying to justify stealing. Just like my clients who have court orders to do things & a million excuses as to why they can't. Court orders someone to stay away from their ex--"But I love her" was the guy's excuse when he was trying to explain being arrested for violating the restraining order. She obviously doen't love him. Stay away. Sorry to all the people living in places where anime isn't readily available. You know what people did before the internet? Paid OBSCENE anounts for black market versions or did without. Or made their own knock off versions (I remember hearing back in the '70's Russians would pay obscene amounts of money for real American blue jeans). Just because the internet provides you with a cheap option of getting your fix you still aren't entitled to a copy (pulls out trudge 5 miles to school thru snow story. No, I actually never did. I'm SoCal, right?) My mom has all kinds of fascinating stories of what they had to do without during WWII when she was a kid. When I was a child in the '60's we didn't have HBO & Showtime. Cable was unheard of. We had the big 3 networks, no way to record programs, etc. etc. etc. Sorry, I don't have any compassion for your hardship of living without anime when I grew up wanting to see this or that show (Dark Shadows) & because of the technology in place in the '60's & 70's, wasn't able to when I wanted to see it in the late '70's because no tv station in my area was playing it. |
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DmonHiro
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Well...here's the newsflash: people are greedy. Always have been, always will be. If someone can get something for free and not be caught , they will get it. It may be immoral, it may be ilegal, but that is the way the human mind works. If you want something REALLY bad, but you can't afford it,or you just don't WANT to buy it, and then one day, you just happen to run into some guy you already know and he tells you he made a perfect copy of the thing you want and he's willing to give it to you for free, are you telling me that you will refuse him, or you will report him to the police? If you say you would, then you are a big fat liar. Is applies to anime fansubs as well, just that instead of just finding it, you go look for it and find it.
Now, since there is no way to stop the greed of people, you must work around it, likewhat Microsoft did when their sales were droping because of piracy. They lowered the prices, or include some super-special-awesome poster or artbook with the dvd |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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People who know me also know I have over 2000 anime dvds & over 2100 volumes of manga/manwha. If I want to try a show, I watch free previews offered with Newtype. I bought Saiyuki based entirely on the trailer on ADV dvds or in-store impulse--I forget now, but it was without viewing a single ep or reading a single word of manga. 12 Kingdoms I held off buying until I watched an ep at Comic-con, but my interest came entirely from what I'd read in Newtype about the show. I waited to buy the SDK anime until I read a volume or 2 of the manga. I wanted GetBackers from the moment I saw a 2-page spread in Newtype. I've started titles & disliked them enough to drop them later, but I still bought that first 1, 2, 3, whatever dvds. Better watch who you're calling a liar. Like the Safeway ad said "You work an honest day. You want an honest deal" I like to be paid for my work. I like to compensate those who provide me enjoyment. Why is that concept so alien to downloaders? THe anime gives you pleasure, so you give payment to the makers. A free preview is like Starbucks passing out samples. Downloading without the owner's permission is like taking something not meant to be a sample like the drink someone else paid for. I work in law enforcement. My job is worth more than getting convicted of a felony & losing it. |
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Calculusman
Posts: 309 Location: Virginia |
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Now, that's just a greedy person trying to justify being greedy: "I can't help it if I steal...it's in my nature to steal if I can get away with it!" Of course, there are plenty of people who could "steal and get away with it" and don't because they realize that it's wrong and thus they don't. The only people who do are either people who don't believe it's wrong, or who don't care, both of which are the type of people who need a readjustment of their moral compass IMHO. |
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DmonHiro
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I wasn't really talking about me, I was just trying to give an example. And I don't think what I said is wrong. I also never said that that type of behaivior is good. It's not, but how many things in this world are right. I just called it how I saw it. It's just how most people act. And yes, it's greedy and wrong...........but it's reality.
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mskala
 Posts: 45 Location: Waterloo, Ontario |
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Oh, yeah. I forgot. |
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zrdb
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I don't really care as I straddle both sides of the fence, I download a lot of stuff but I also buy a lot of stuff. If I had never downloaded fansubs of Air I never would have gotten the R1 release. I used to buy a lot of hkdvds-I don't anymore-but it's not for ethical reasons. It's simply because of the inferior video quality-as most hks have anywhere between 20 to 35% compression applied (how do you think they get 6 to 7 dvds for a 26 episode series on to 3 dvds?)it's maybe ok on a standard definition tv-on an hdtv it looks like crap-pure and simple. And also with the low msrp and being able (at least some of the time) to get things cheaply on ebay and amazon-why buy hks?
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gary leeman
 Posts: 70 Location: The Big Apple |
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To equate a physical property to the download analogy, it could parallel a poster maker. Someone makes a poster, many copies are made of it and sold everywhere. But someone who likes the poster decided that they don't want to buy it, and they scan it, print it, hang it. It looks identical, except the original creator did not get credit for someone enjoying his/her design. Although it's a lame analogy, it uses the same principles of downloading an illegal digital file, except in a tangible form.
One of the factors behind downloading is that it can be done invisibly. There is a sense of solace that there is a minuscule chance that a person will be caught doing it. Because no one sees you doing it, there doesn't appear to be any risk. How many people would do it if you had to walk into a store, grab a DVD off the shelf, walk out, go home, create a copy for yourself, and then put the DVD back? There's a little more risk in that. The internet allows you to hide, gives you a false sense of security. But what happens when you become a statistic of the persons caught, and forced to pay tens of thousands of dollars? Then the tune changes. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Wow, 2000? That's awesome! I would like to point out that I also own a whack, though not quite as much- over 700 dvd's/vhs, and over 350 manga. All official. It's not that hard to find good deals people, as I pointed out earlier in the thread. |
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zrdb
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Yeah-i own about 1500 anime dvds myself and would not have that many if I didn't know how to find bargins.
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MokonaModoki
 Posts: 437 Location: Austin, Texas |
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Sure you can. It's intellectual property theft. It's not like stealing, it is stealing. It's not just an annoying idea, it's the law. Most people never step out of the "I didn't hurt anyone" mindset...and laws are just so darn confusing...but it's really easy to see if you follow these steps: Step 1: Create something that isn't physically tangible (try to make it something good, something that has real value). Step 2: Develop a business model around selling your creation (try to make it a viable model that should eventually realize a profit for you). Step 3: Watch some asshat take your creation and make it available for free on the Internet to anyone who cares to take it. Step 4: Listen to the argument that you suffered no loss because you still have all the copies that you didn't sell. Step 5: Console yourself through bankruptcy with the argument that those people didn't really steal the thing you sell, because they wouldn't have bought it anyway. And if you aren't creative the steps still work! Just change step 1 to "Acquire a license to an intellectual property that someone else created." No $$$ to invest in a license? Go ahead and change Step 1 to "get a job working for someone who creates intellectual property", and Step 4 to "Accept the loss of your job as a natural consequence of not working in fast food in the first place like the people who (don't really) steal from you" |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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This is why Fansub debates go nowhere. I sometimes look at some of the absolutely stupid things some people say in defence of fansubs, and Im ashamed to even be associated with them. Then I turn around and look at some of the things people say against fansubs and I dont feel so bad. People on both sides of the argument act ridiculous and thus these debates go nowhere.
Ah yes, You're in the moral right therefore what you say is valid and what we say is an excuse.
It must be nice to have enough money that you can just go out on a limb and buy whatever Anime you think might be good and buy any Anime you want to see. Interestingly, it also makes it incredibly easy to tell people who cant afford to do that "do without" when in no scenario would you ever have to do so. I wonder, If you would just "do without" in such a situation?
Okay, were done here. I see no point in arguing with someone who believes the world is black and white. Its a completely unrealistic view.
If someone downloads it when normally they would have bought it, then yes they do lose. I would never claim otherwise. They lose a sale which is still somewhat different than losing an actual product, but because of the nature of how intellectual property is produced that can be just as bad. However, If someone wouldnt buy it if they couldnt download it then no, the company isnt losing anything. Either way the company wouldnt make the sale. (I could say "now is that so hard to understand" here, but I dont feel the need to be all condecending and obnoxious just because I disagree with someone.) |
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