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NEWS: Singapore's Odex Directors Speak as Protests Continue

MokonaModoki wrote:

Step 4: Listen to the argument that you suffered no loss because you still have all the copies that you didn't sell.

If someone downloads it when normally they would have bought it, then yes they do lose. I would never claim otherwise. They lose a sale which is still somewhat different than losing an actual product, but because of the nature of how intellectual property is produced that can be just as bad. However, If someone wouldnt buy it if they couldnt download it then no, the company isnt losing anything. Either way the company wouldnt make the sale. (I could say "now is that so hard to understand" here, but I don't feel the need to be all condecending and obnoxious just because I disagree with someone.)

It's like my husband used to talk about sneaking thru the fence & stealing Shasta soda which a lot of the kids in the area did. What the anime companies are trying to do it seal up all the holes in the fence to stop the uninvited use of their product. Maybe the anime makers can end the practice & maybe not. You can't blame them for trying to eliminate shrinkage.

What you are still talking about is a moral equivocation that says "downloading is OK if a person is not going to buy the product anyway, because the producer isn't out any inventory" which is completely irrelevent to the producer suffering the loss (and in the eyes of the law).

My response was to your comment that 'You can't avoid that whole debate by cutting right to "its like stealing no matter what."' My point was that, yes, in fact, you can. That is precisely what would happen in a court of law.

And I personally don't care. I'm not making moral judgments. Otherwise good people steal - it happens..a lot.

So now people in Singapore have gotten tagged for downloading, and a bunch of people who don't like Odex are screaming about it like they are being gang-raped by the anime industry (and I do mean industry, this initiative came from the Japanese members of AVPAS too, not just Odex). I can sympathize with their woes about the quality of Odex releases, import pricing, etc., but the bottom line remains that they are getting tagged for stealing intellectual property and that is exactly what they did--not something 'like stealing'.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but reading this from a post at SGCafe, I'd have to put in my 2 cents' worth to clarify certain misconceptions.

1) We admit that some, if not majority, have downloaded anime illegally, knowing it fully that it's illegal in the first place.

2) The protest was not only to protest against the "no illegal anime downloading". It was encompassed to include, but not exhaustive:

i) Protest against ODEX's underhanded methods in lying to the public with very contraicting statements and providing misconceptions and painting the anime community black

ii) Protest against their actions thus far of dropping "love letters" in mailboxes demanding private settlement fees which have been revealed recently, that they do not have the rights to continue pressing charges, especially criminal, as stated in their "love letters"

3) We admit that ODEX's sales are dropping. But it's not entirely because of illegal downloads. They are blaming us, the consumers and fanbase, because THEIR sales are dropping. They did NOT factor in imports, of anime series, merchandise and the likes. All they are looking at are their OWN sales figures, which will drop given their lacklustre quality. Another fact to bring up would be that thus far, out of all the anime series they have obtain licenses to distribute for, it is safe to say that only UP TO 10% of them are available in the market. And they take FOREVER to release those series. A good example would be BLEACH. It's a popular anime here, but extremely slow releases have caused fans to resort to either importing the series or just downloading them.

When that happens to anime downloaders elsewhere (and if you think it won't... well, you're entitled to your opinion), Internet forum debates about 'moralitty', 'promoting the product', and whether or not there is 'loss of actual product if you wouldn't have bought it anyway' won't mean anything when the letters come letting you know that you are facing the choice of settlement or prosecution.

starcade wrote:

If you really want to go down that road, you'd probably have to close down most anime conventions in the US short of AX and maybe a couple of others who exclusively use licensed material. I mean, the $64,000 question is whether fansubs do anime good (because it's the only way people can see anime not licensed yet for the US and gauge how popular it might be -- which see Ouran) or bad (because the downloaders won't buy anime at all...). .

Ouran rocks.
I've never seen 1 second of the anime(stills. Have a tv book I bought at con)
I've bought the manga from the start though & do want to see the anime. Why do I need to download it? I know the manga is good & the overall reaction from Japan is positive so it's simple to deduce it's good & I want to see it.

???
Comic-con gets permission from the anime companies for all their anime. Hell, they get titles that haven't even been released on dvd yet to air. It's part of that asking permission thing mentioned at the beginning of dvds & I assunme all cons have to ask pernission or they'd lose the support of the anime companies.

starcade wrote:

I reiterate my comment: You'd pretty well have to close down most anime avenues to the general public, even here in the States, with that kind of stand. There was a convention which, in 2006, had EIGHT ROOMS of unlicensed fansub anime.

I repeat what I said about comic-con international. I spoke with the guy in charge of the anime year before last & all the stuff is cleared with the companies. Many companies are more than willing to offer screening copies.
I would question any US con that would air fansubs

starcade wrote:

I had this argument on the Internet years and years ago -- my stand is that no crime is committed until you are caught and prosecuted. (Innocent until proven guilty and the like...)

Innocent until proven guilty is one thing
Guilty but waiting to be convicted before admitting (if ever) is wrong.
I happen to believe what goes around comes around & alkl the evil one does comes back on one 3-fold so people who break the law will get theirs somewhere, but with that philosophy obviously keeping one's mouth shut about one's crime doesn't matter. Wrong-doers will get theirs so I don't have to waste time being angry & vengeful when someone wrongs me.

It is pretty ridiculous to confront someone with a positive drug test & have them insist it's wrong-we must have switched their urine with someone else's(that's why we make the testers pour it in the vial themselves & seal the bag & put the bag on the fridge thenselves--we don't handle it). I've heard people try to insist their significant others use so that must be why they're positive(doesn't work that way), 2nd hand smoke (test are a lot more sophisticated now so that's creared out with the 2nd screen), some got on their skin (doesn't work that way).

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle.
The court order say no controlled substance without a valid prescription. No excuse.
But I'm going thru a hard time.
I was at a party & everyone was doing it.
My boyfriend is slipping it into my food to get me in trouble.

starcade wrote:

So what you are saying then is that the US audience has NO RIGHT to the material until the US companies license and release it... See my comment above on conventions (which could probably also be extended to many anime clubs

Contact any of the anime licensees. When my teen was going to start an anime club, they sent me a bunch of preview dvds (The club died as many things do with kids). Mediablasters actually sent me 3 which had a first ep of a couple titles per dvd. I thought ADV still has that kind oif thing. Funi also. All it takes is going to the website & signing up (or it did then)

starcade wrote:

A side comment first: Take it from someone who's had orders like that put on him years ago: You'd be better off having already had him in jail in the first place -- chances are that the target is not the only person being threatened by the perp.

Usually with my clients there's a restraining order, but they believe made up with the person who took it out so I tell my guys they can't be with that person for their own protection. Things may be ok now, but one fight-suddenly the cops are called & guess who's in jail? It's trouble waiting to happen. Avoid it.

starcade wrote:

I guess I'll ask the same question here I did in the other thread: Are anime fans the ally or the enemy?

I hope the downloaders are just a resistant few & overall anime fans get their stuff thru legit sources. It's like those free birthday meals from Denny's--it was a great thing while it lasted, but it's gone.

So I'm right, then: One has no right to any anime which is not licensed in their locality.

starcade wrote:

So I'm right, then: One has no right to any anime which is not licensed in their locality.

You don't have a "right" to anime, period. Please show me in the bill of rights or the constitution where it guarantees you anime.

All in all, ODEX has no right to complain about fansubs, seeing as they sell CRAP that isn't even half as good as fansubs. Yes, there is a risk in downloading, but many are willing to take that risk because buying from ODEX is not an opetion. Why? Because I have fansubs I downloaded 4 years ago, encoded in DIV3 and mp3 at 56 kb/s that STILL look better then ODEX crap. So why, in the name of all that is good and holy would someone chose to pay for something inferior?

And I personally don't care. I'm not making moral judgments. Otherwise good people steal - it happens..a lot. We all know that the reality of the situation is that illegal downloading of anime is effectively OK to the extent that you can get away with it...to the extent that the people in the business of marketing that intellectual product decide it is OK...to the extent that it isn't enforced. But what is not true is that 'it is OK because it isn't really stealing'. In Singapore they finally decided it wasn't OK, but in international and Singapore law it was already stealing, just like it is most anywhere else but Taiwan.

So now people in Singapore have gotten tagged for downloading, and a bunch of people who don't like Odex are screaming about it like they are being gang-raped by the anime industry (and I do mean industry, this initiative came from the Japanese members of AVPAS too, not just Odex). I can sympathize with their woes about the quality of Odex releases, import pricing, etc., but the bottom line remains that they are getting tagged for stealing intellectual property and that is exactly what they did--not something 'like stealing'.

When that happens to anime downloaders elsewhere (and if you think it won't... well, you're entitled to your opinion), Internet forum debates about 'moralitty', 'promoting the product', and whether or not there is 'loss of actual product if you wouldn't have bought it anyway' won't mean anything when the letters come letting you know that you are facing the choice of settlement or prosecution.

To reiterate what I have said, once and for all:

3) We admit that ODEX's sales are dropping. But it's not entirely because of illegal downloads. They are blaming us, the consumers and fanbase, because THEIR sales are dropping. They did NOT factor in imports, of anime series, merchandise and the likes. All they are looking at are their OWN sales figures, which will drop given their lacklustre quality.

So look at this and think over it before accusing the general community of true fans as "thieves". And we would never think of "stealing" ODEX's stuffs. There are just some things even beggars won't do.

Basically, five words or less, ODEX is finished.

And probably moreover: So is anime in Singapore.

I think Odex is doing what the government is suppose to do in Singapore. They are taking on the role of a police force to weed out illegal downloads.

Alright, time to clear up some stupid misconceptions people have..

As mentioned, we know and recognise that downloading illegally is akin to stealing. We know the damn fact already. Our gripes with this issue from the start have always been their underhanded methods in forcing "payments of compensations" and "lying to the general public with misleading press statements".

And I'm pretty sure you'd be screaming like you got gang-raped by RIAA or the likes if they ever sent a letter down to you demanding cease-and-desist with settlement, and a clause that doesn't indemnify you from original recording companies who can still sue you for infringement apart from RIAA or the likes.

And guess what, AVPAS is entirely run by Singaporeans, with only ONE Japanese in the ordinary committee, and the Japanese companies as associate members. Until we can get a press or official statement released by the Japanese companies stating that they were the ones who initiated the whole issue, it still lies in the fact that ODEX was the one who started it all. If you looked closely too, AVPAS authorised ODEX to carry out said actions, and the Vice President of AVPAS signed the authorisation letter for ODEX's president. The offices of AVPAS and ODEX reside in the exact same location..

On the other hand, the community has repeatedly asked for confirmations of warnings from ODEX on this issue, and if they were really intent on stopping said "piracy", they would have acknowledged the queries, and not blatantly denied the allegations, which were followed shortly by sending out letters demanding payment all of a sudden.

Refer to very first point. How would you feel, when all of a sudden, the "settlement" you paid for, has been shown to be a form of "extortion", where the company itself, is in no rights, to produce and send such letters, demanding said items or monies, and is in no rights, to press any charges whatsoever, much less criminal.

I like to keep up with the Odex situation, because it seems like a bellweather for what could happen elsewhere......

I'm not defending Odex. I think that they have failed spectacularly to engage the anime community in Singapore on an ongong basis. Their quality issues sound abominable, as does their failure to respond to consumer complaints about it. And their PR is generally a complete nightmare (which appears to be the reason that they are backpedalling on the issue so fast).

And I think that what the targeted individuals have had to go through is both unfortunate and unfair. It's a shame that the sins of the many are visited upon the few with such onerous penalties. It's ridiculous that they made no effort to alert the public that they had plans in place to go forward with an enforcement campaign. If you let people do something with no penalty for years, it only seems fair to give them a chance to stop before you decide to apply a hammer to their skulls.

....I don't download movies. If I did, I wouldn't take the stupid risk of using P2P software or Bittorrent.

.....I simply find it a bit novel that the Japanese are finally getting involved in stopping anime piracy outside Japan at all, even if their role is a passive "yes, you may act on my behalf" letter.