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NEWS: Geneon USA to Cancel DVD Sales, Distribution by Friday


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Porcupine



Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 1033
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:55 pm Reply with quote
xstylus, I completely understand where you are coming from, but I stand by my earlier stance on this one.

If Geneon USA were a half-competent company, they could have figured out a way to survive and exit gradually and gracefully, at the same time without taking significant losses. Again, you haven't proved to me that they were even taking losses at all, so until then I'm not going to buy your argument that they absolutely had to send all systems into emergency shutdown due to financial problems.

In times past, several other anime companies have most likely encountered financial difficulty and downsized their operations gracefully. For example US Manga (although that company is currently on the rise again regarding anime releases) and Anime Works. In the past 4-5 years or so, there were times where I noticed that they were really cutting down on the amount of their licenses and going into semi-hibernation mode until times got better. This is what a competent licensing company does and this is what should be expected of any licensing company. So I don't buy the argument that it can't be done.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:00 pm Reply with quote
I'm inclined to agree with Porcupine. I don't hate the company but it seems hard for me to believe that one can say that businesses go down suddenly with little warning and that absolutely 0 mismanagement is involved.
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VEGANDARAE



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:11 pm Reply with quote
Porcupine wrote:

BTW though, what do you think of the video quality on fansubs these days? Is it acceptable? The last time I saw a fansub was 6 years ago at an anime con and the quality was not acceptable or even close to it. I consider DVD quality to be pretty much unacceptable too though, my standards are that high. I'm unhappy with the video quality of all the domestic DVD releases from all major licensing studios in the USA, to some extent. Fansubs would probably be worse, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case if they are encoded well and are from a quality source. Are they good these days?

I'm also asking this because a Geneon fiasco (which has yet to occur, it's still early but things don't look good) might cause me to abandon buying any anime for the rest of my life, as a matter of principle. I have to reconsider my habits now. Neutral


I can't understand how you can say video quality on the dvds is bad.

Fansubs are the epitomy of awful quality, truly unprofessional, all of which i couldve done TEN years ago!(hint: im 22 now)

Weazul-chan wrote:
you do understand that some companies ARE taking steps to limit the amount of illegal downloads, right? Japanese companies are threatening to sue YouTube, Viz, owned by a Japanese parent company, offers subbed eps of Death Note before it's even been released on DVD for $1.99 an ep, and such.


This IS good news for me, because i was waiting for SOMEONE to take a Napsterization method of taking on fansubs, instead of killing them, make users pay to use it.

i guess this is a small step in a larger plan to make this happen. I hope it's soon because the industry's pillars seem to be cracking a bit.

Last edited by VEGANDARAE on Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4154
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:20 pm Reply with quote
VEGANDARAE wrote:
I can't't understand how you can say video quality on the dvds is bad.


To be fair, there have been instances where the authoring has been atrocious. So much so that it looks like you watching the video through a fan.

With that said I would say the majority of them are just fine though.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:22 pm Reply with quote
I don't want to push fansubs to a guy lacking in faith or anything ( I guess I missed this post of his) because I think you should probably get over it.

That said, I think fansubs are just fine in quality unlike the above poster. However, the quality of a fansub isn't going to (generally) be as high as a dvd release with the exception of those shows that have 720p hd tv sources available. The reason is simple, transcoding will always have costs and tv sources are going to be bandwidth limited to some extent as well. x264 is a good codec though and makes for good quality at small filesizes, but no it won't magically make the video better than dvd when the source it comes from is worse.

Anyhow, I really think you should stick to your principles on this. Geneon going down was something that was mismanaged like you had said before. I don't think it's right to simply blame it on piracy (which cannot be controlled easily at all, though many have tried).
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VEGANDARAE



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:23 pm Reply with quote
Dargonxtc wrote:
VEGANDARAE wrote:
I can't't understand how you can say video quality on the dvds is bad.


To be fair, there have been instances where the authoring has been atrocious. So much so that it looks like you watching the video through a fan.

With that said I would say the majority of them are just fine though.


got any comparisons i can use as a reference? I just want to set my frame of reference on this matter so i can see it in the future.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:24 pm Reply with quote
VEGANDARAE wrote:
Dargonxtc wrote:
VEGANDARAE wrote:
I can't't understand how you can say video quality on the dvds is bad.


To be fair, there have been instances where the authoring has been atrocious. So much so that it looks like you watching the video through a fan.

With that said I would say the majority of them are just fine though.


got any comparisons i can use as a reference? I just want to set my frame of reference on this matter so i can see it in the future.


I don't know for myself, but I've heard in many places that the Trigun dvds that were originally released in the US were truly horrible.
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VEGANDARAE



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:45 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
VEGANDARAE wrote:
Dargonxtc wrote:
VEGANDARAE wrote:
I can't't understand how you can say video quality on the dvds is bad.


To be fair, there have been instances where the authoring has been atrocious. So much so that it looks like you watching the video through a fan.

With that said I would say the majority of them are just fine though.


got any comparisons i can use as a reference? I just want to set my frame of reference on this matter so i can see it in the future.


I don't know for myself, but I've heard in many places that the Trigun dvds that were originally released in the US were truly horrible.



i dunno, i really enjoyed Trigun, but for some reason, not enough to really keep it.

must be a subliminal thing.

the BEST that i've ever seen in anime when it comes to form and essence, is Kaleido Star, nothing is stale about this series. I guess it pays off to have careful attention to detail when it comes to dvd authoring.
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Weazul-chan



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:49 pm Reply with quote
tygerchickchibi wrote:
Weazul-chan wrote:
you do understand that some companies ARE taking steps to limit the amount of illegal downloads, right? Japanese companies are threatening to sue YouTube, Viz, owned by a Japanese parent company, offers subbed eps of Death Note before it's even been released on DVD for $1.99 an ep, and such.


I definitely think it's a smart idea for them to preview a few episodes of an anime on the site, but it still comes with much of a headache. Though the show is only $1.99 an episode (Which isn't bad at all, compared to downloading a ringtone via cell phone, or a music file), People just don't want to invest, or have an online account to pay for files.

Some sites also allow for it to be watched for free, but yeah, this was a random off topic post... >.>;
the number of domestic anime companies offering sample a sample ep is growing, they're realizing people want to preview and streams embedded in their own site or hosted by sites they have a deal with are a good way to get out a free sample ep or two. the companies are starting to cater more to the online era, which means they may start working to compete with fansubbers. altho you can't expect them to give you anime free, they're companies trying to keep afloat and make enough profit to snag more licenses after all, quicly subbed episode releases like what Viz is doing with Death Note may be the way of the future. I'd also expect earlier licensing, perhaps with only the most popular or those that make significant subbed ep sales getting dubbed DVD releases.

as for kids paying for them online, more and more places are offering prepaid credit and debit cards. you just pick how much you want loaded onto them and buy them and can then use them to pay for stuff online. you can even get them at places like Walgreen's. that could make paying online significantly easier even for younger kids who lack a debit or credit card attached to a bank account.
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xstylus



Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:09 am Reply with quote
This might be slightly off topic, but apparently Geneon Japan is making friends. Geneon has been contracted to distribute Universal Pictures titles in Japan. Kind of ironic in a small sense.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117972903.html?categoryid=20&cs=1&nid=2573
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2422
Location: The morally challenged land of cheap guns and expensive health care.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:30 am Reply with quote
Geneon was just a corrupt reckless company that was too greedy for their own good and got exactly what they deserved. This action has no bearing on anything else, it is unrelated to anything else, and it implies nothing else. The R1 market is still completely healthy and all the new fans being created every day are buying so much new anime that it can only grow larger still. It is not under attack by anything, it cannot be harmed by anything and it will never be reduced to a small shadow of it's former self, despite all the fear mongering some folks keep spreading.
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VEGANDARAE



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:43 am Reply with quote
xstylus wrote:
This might be slightly off topic, but apparently Geneon Japan is making friends. Geneon has been contracted to distribute Universal Pictures titles in Japan. Kind of ironic in a small sense.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117972903.html?categoryid=20&cs=1&nid=2573



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Hagaren_Otaku726



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 113
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:41 am Reply with quote
With Geneon's cancelations... once again, I am left in the cold waiting for someone to distribute Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (when they cry) Anime cry.

I'm kinda iffy that someone will license it and continue. Higurashi is very very much like the niche otaku shows they talked about, and I can't imagine it sold an incredibly large amount of DVD's... But I keep hoping. (And I'm going to be hoping for Kai to be licensed when it finishes (more like if, after the preemptions) as well >_>)
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Omega13



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:51 am Reply with quote
xstylus wrote:
Why? What's in it for them?

Let's say I'm a widget maker. I tell all the widget fans out there that I'm going to make 10 widgets. Let's also say that by the time I finished making the 6th widget, I discover that I'm now in the red, and that if I make those remaining 4 widgets I will loose even more money. Sales of my widgets just isn't covering what it's costing to make them.

The few fans who are buying my widgets (instead of settling for unauthorized copies of them) are cheering me on, begging me to finish the other four, but alas, I'm not made of money. I've got mouths to feed and a mortgage to pay, once I get done paying for the materials I still owe from the 6 widgets I made. I decide to cut my losses and find a different job.

So I ask again: Aside from a warm, fuzzy feeling, what's in it for Geneon to waste one more penny finishing the production of those shows?


While I understand the point you're trying to make, there are some caveats that need to be added to make your widget example fit a bit better:

1) You had to pay for the right to make all ten widgets up front (licensing). If you've released any of the widgets, then that money is likely non-refundable, or at the best, refundable in a very limited sense.
2) For the unreleased widgets, there's a good chance that most of the production of the parts is already done and paid for (translation/dubbing/subbing). That's more money already spent on unreleased widgets that you can't get back.
3) For the next-to-be-released widget or two, in fact, you might only have to pay to screw it together and get it out the door (DVD replication and packaging). This isn't all that expensive in comparison to the costs in 1) and 2), and is the only money you'd 'save' by stopping now.
4) Additionally, these aren't 10 stand-alone widgets. They're 10 integral parts to one mega-widget, which is now perpetually incomplete and only semi-working.

While I understand that intentionally losing money it not a smart business decision, I find it hard to believe that only a month's worth of releases had substantial enough work done that Geneon/Dentsu actually saved anything by pulling the plug.

Also, regarding the 'warm, fuzzy feeling'? Given that half-releases will be irritating/annoying/down-right pissing off PAYING customers (regardless of whether those feelings are justified), garnering all the goodwill they can would be beneficial for anyone involved with this situation if they have any plans at all to be active in the R1 anime industry at any time in the future. As a slight rewording of one of the rules of the internet: "Otaku do not forgive." After all, it took MANY years for some fans (myself included) to not instinctively cringe whenever we heard the words "Funimation just licensed...". By changing the way they did things and giving the fans what they wanted, there's no longer (or at least not to the same degree) the widespread fear of the 'Funimation effect' on their releases.

Last edited by Omega13 on Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:52 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Desslar



Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 69
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:59 am Reply with quote
Porcupine wrote:
Fortunately for the car industry though, the police care when cars are stolen and do something about it.


Yeah, well, not very much a lot of the time. Car theft remains a huge problem year after year.

Quote:
Also, owners of cars care when people steal their cars.


And anime distributors care when you steal their products.

Quote:
However, the thing in this case is that the people who make anime have within their own power the ability to reduce the thievery somewhat. But they aren't using their power. So it's their own fault for being lazy and stupid.


Hey, if you know that secret power I guarantee the movie and music industries would pay you big bucks for it.
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