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NEWS: Singapore's Odex Subs Haruhi with Similar Text to Fansub


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shinsengumi



Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:28 pm Reply with quote
I can't imagine that a.f.k. has the legal standing to be able to contest this in a court of law if Odex did actually simply lift their Haruhi subtitles. At the same time, however, I wonder if it could simply be coincidence. After all, if two people are asked to translate the same document from language X to language Y, it's quite possible that some portions of their translations are bound to be quite similar, if not exactly the same.

Given that only a couple frames were shown for comparison, it's hard to see exactly how much of the subtitles bear an uncanny resemblance to the a.f.k. fansubs. If only a few lines are identical, I don't think it's an issue, but if most of them are, then Odex is profiting off of a.f.k.'s work, but again, I don't think there's anything a.f.k. can do about it.
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james039



Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:33 pm Reply with quote
I have to agree with the first poster. Assuming the translations are "correct", One would assume several lines would be translated identically. Japanese being open to a certain variance in interpretation in English, however, would mean not all lines would be identical, but a good percentage should be similar, if not, identical. They certainly don't owe anything to a.f.k.
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:38 pm Reply with quote
It isn't a coincidence. If you need evidence, the Bandai subs are completely different in every way. On the evidenced lines, the probability of two people obtaining the exact same translation is extremely low. The real test is the known wrong lines that exist.

Also, this is not the first time the translators Odex outsources to have done this.
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tueac



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:38 pm Reply with quote
there is a high number of similarities but the sub do have some changes and differences...

well since TMoSH is also a book, some of the content might be a references to the translated version of the book... who noes?
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Pantha



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:39 pm Reply with quote
james039 wrote:
They certainly don't owe anything to a.f.k.


And even if they did, the irony certainly isn't lost.
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zalas



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:42 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I have to agree with the first poster. Assuming the translations are "correct", One would assume several lines would be translated identically. Japanese being open to a certain variance in interpretation in English, however, would mean not all lines would be identical, but a good percentage should be similar, if not, identical. They certainly don't owe anything to a.f.k.

Strato has a certain style of writing, and it's really hard to mimic his writing without either copying him or being him, let alone having the exact same line breaks and punctuation patterns. It would be different if it were pretty simple lines that were the same, but two of the duplicated lines according to the original forum posts are rather complex weavings of wordplay.

That being said, it all really boils down to whether a.f.k. has copyright over their translation of the original work. We all know that it's an unauthorized translation and thus distribution is infringement, but does that revoke a.f.k.'s copyright on the work? Can you have copyright over an unauthorized derivative work that you have created?

Quote:
well since TMoSH is also a book, some of the content might be a references to the translated version of the book... who noes?

x TMoSH
o TMoHS

I am not aware of any official English translations of the novels. Did you mean the fan-translated ones, one version of which was by Strato, a.f.k.'s translator?
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who_is_friend



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 356

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:55 pm Reply with quote
Uh-huh..... so Odex sues fansub downloaders, then rips the subs from a fansub. Oh, the irony.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:08 pm Reply with quote
If it's true they did, big deal. I'm a pro-fansub sort and such because I don't care that much about copyright law, so when it swings the other way to the companies copying the fansubs work it's all good IMO. As long as the translation is valid go ahead and use it I say. If they wanted to be paid they shouldn't be putting the translation on the net free. Of course I'd like it if they'd admit to doing this and give proper credit where it's due, but I can understand why they'd be reticent to do that with people's notions on these issues. Perhaps we'll get to that place when people realize the whole system is a farse.
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Quasar



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Wouldn't that make them no different from the bootleggers who burn DVDs from fansubs releases and sell them for profits on ebay?

It's a serious morality issue when they claim to be clamping down on fansubs, screaming foul play for fansubbers illegitimately placing their own names and credits on fansubs, and yet they turn around and USE those same fansubs for profit.
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testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 465

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:00 pm Reply with quote
Quasar wrote:
Wouldn't that make them no different from the bootleggers who burn DVDs from fansubs releases and sell them for profits on ebay?


What makes them different is Odex is still getting permission from the original Japanese creators for the anime itself, and Odex is still paying the creators. A bootlegger does neither.

If the fansub-lifting is true, it is an uncool, unethical move and yet another sordid black-eye on Odex's public face, but it alone doesn't put them on the same level of bootleggers.
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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 5058
Location: Fresno, TX

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:05 pm Reply with quote
man this Odex this whole saga would make a great anime in itself. action, suspense, betrayals... it's all here. Laughing
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calawain



Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 192
Location: New York, NY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:23 pm Reply with quote
Oh the irony, Odex is a joke.
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burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:25 pm Reply with quote
Umm, the fansubs are derivitive works and ownership of unauthorized derivitive works typically reverts to the owner of the original work. See "The Verve" for an example.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:35 pm Reply with quote
Quasar wrote:
Wouldn't that make them no different from the bootleggers who burn DVDs from fansubs releases and sell them for profits on ebay?

It's a serious morality issue when they claim to be clamping down on fansubs, screaming foul play for fansubbers illegitimately placing their own names and credits on fansubs, and yet they turn around and USE those same fansubs for profit.

It wouldn't make them the same at all. They are actually supporting the artists/authors with their sales, not just making money for no purpose. Those bootleggers who burn DVDs are making money only for themselves, and they produce nothing due to this that is useful to society.

So no I don't think they are at all the same. That said, in one manner (that they are potentially violating the authors copyright) I think they are the same. But I don't care about copyright, and if we can get them not to care either it's for the better IMO. Perhaps then we can find a common ground with fellow violators of the principles of the broken system Smile

IMO anyway.

Quote:

fansubs are derivitive works


I think if you are referring to the video/etc you may be right, but if you are talking only about the translated text, I'm not so sure. I don't know much to reference so I have to use this example. Take the Bible. Different translations of the bible are owned by different corps (NIV, NASB, etc.). Of course that could be because it was originally public domain, but I'm not sure. Obviously translation is sort of a unique thing since it requires original text but is in it's own way an art/science.
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la_contessa



Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 196
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:50 pm Reply with quote
zalas wrote:
Can you have copyright over an unauthorized derivative work that you have created?


Not in America. See, e.g., Sobhani v. @Radical.Media Inc., 257 F.Supp.2d 1234 (C.D.Cal. 2003) (commercial specs for Jack-in-the-Box featuring a copyrighted character are unauthorized derivative works, and plaintiff ad designer cannot sue for their infringement). If the original work "pervades" the derivative, there is no copyright even in any original elements. Considering that dialogue can fairly be said to pervade an anime series, its translation would not likely be enough originality to get a copyright The statute indicates that SOME level of originality may give a limited copyright, but it must be something specific that is added.

I know nothing about Singapore law, however.

Xanas wrote:
Quote:

fansubs are derivitive works


I think if you are referring to the video/etc you may be right, but if you are talking only about the translated text, I'm not so sure. I don't know much to reference so I have to use this example. Take the Bible. Different translations of the bible are owned by different corps (NIV, NASB, etc.). Of course that could be because it was originally public domain, but I'm not sure. Obviously translation is sort of a unique thing since it requires original text but is in it's own way an art/science.


Translations are derivative works under U.S. copyright law, and U.S. law isn't that different from the rest of the world. See sec. 101 of the Copyright Act (the very first example in the definition of "derivative work" is a "translation").


Last edited by la_contessa on Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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