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NEWS: Singapore's Odex Subs Haruhi with Similar Text to Fansub


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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:44 pm Reply with quote
Well, I think personally that the "people who get into anime because of fansubs or other free downloads" group completely offsets the group who doesn't pay who otherwise would (the 10%). But there is absolutely no way for either of us to firmly establish any position because the data simply isn't sufficient to do so.
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hikura



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 565
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:46 pm Reply with quote
So let me get this right.People in this forum and others are complaining that odex is more or less using a fan subbers subtitles.I know what i am about to say will draw criticism.I feel no sympathy for the fansubbers and for the people are complaining about odex and what they are doing.Odex has rights to their material they have the right to distrubute in a certain area.The fansubbers do not have the right to be complaining about what odex is doing with their(odex's own material) material.If people dislike it it they try to change what odex is doing or not buy the material that is offered or get the material legally.But the fansubbers are the last people to be whining about "being ripped off".
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ZaWarudo



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:08 pm Reply with quote
It's less about complaining about fansubbers getting ripped off and more about Odex's blatent hypocrisy and self-righteousness.
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hikura



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 565
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:16 pm Reply with quote
ZaWarudo wrote:
It's less about complaining about fansubbers getting ripped off and more about Odex's blatent hypocrisy and self-righteousness.

People say that odex needed to improve their quality of the subtitles.Well they got it.I just feel no sympathy at all for the fansubbers and the people who illegally do what they do.
I will state that the comments i make are my opinion.Meaning that they are not to be taken as facts.It is ok to disagree with.I have no problem with it.
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:53 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
Then again, if you take the reasoning this stuff is absolutely wrong you are essentially saying...
"If you steal my car it's bad. If I steal your car to get back at you, then it's ok". I don't know but in most people's book o' comments they use "two wrongs don't make a right" and other such things.

But since I don't agree with the whole concept in the first place, it's all gravy.


More like "If you steal my car it's bad. So I steal it back, since it's my property. Not the best way to go about things, but you don't deserve to whine about it, car-stealer"

Mind you, this is all dependant about whether or not the subs were actually lifted from the fansubs- people claim this sort of thing all the time, but it's usually been proven wrong.

After the rather harsh treatment Odex has been given for cracking down on bootlegs, I certainly wouldn't blame them for striking back, though it is indeed rather an odd way [and a tad confrontational, *if* it's true]
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ZaWarudo



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:03 pm Reply with quote
Looking at the examples given, it seems extremely likely that the subs were copied mostly or completely wholesale. Unless we get more info that proves otherwise, doubting the claims looks like FUD to me.
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W-General



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 280
Location: Ithaca, NY, USA / Taichung, Taiwan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:37 pm Reply with quote
Although I am watch fansubs every day, in reality, unauthorized fansubs are not protected by copyright at all. I say Odex can do whatever they like with it - the only thing that will damage them is their reputation as an anime licensor in the eyes of fans...and that's not up to my judgment.
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Kibamaru



Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:35 pm Reply with quote
I have not bought Odex's Gundam SEED Destiny boxsets, though from what I heard the subs were ripped off SEED-Fansubs. I have no prove of this so I'm merely sharing what I heard.

Besdes Haruhi, Odex also ripped off subs from Triad Fansubs for their release of Nanoha.

Here are links with side-by-side pictures comparing Odex's release of Nanoha as well as Triad fansbs:

http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showpost.php?p=25850905&postcount=85

http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showpost.php?p=25850909&postcount=86
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Kaioshin_Sama



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1215
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:41 pm Reply with quote
ZaWarudo wrote:
Looking at the examples given, it seems extremely likely that the subs were copied mostly or completely wholesale. Unless we get more info that proves otherwise, doubting the claims looks like FUD to me.


Do you know what the terms Onus of Proof, Reasonable Doubt and Circumstantial Evidence mean?
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bakaShin



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 102
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:56 pm Reply with quote
ZaWarudo wrote:
It's less about complaining about fansubbers getting ripped off and more about Odex's blatent hypocrisy and self-righteousness.


very true. companies argue about intellectual property and copyrights and odex goes off and does this. even if you believe fansubs are wrong, stealing another's work or ideas and passing it as your own is much worst.

if the translation is pretty much word for word then they are caught red handed and lose all credibility and rep they have.
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Micia



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:49 am Reply with quote
Code:
[u]Peter Go, CEO/Director of ODEX[/u]
There was also an article from strait times stating that Odex director Peter Go was at the centre of a copyright infringement crackdown during 1999

A ONE-TIME firm started by the men behind Odex, the company at the centre of a crackdown on illegal downloading of anime, was itself raided by police for copyright infringement. The firm - Games Mart - was set up by Odex director Peter Go in 1994 to sell video game consoles, games and accessories. An Odex spokeman said it was raided in 1999 by the police for peddling counterfeit game controllers and other accessories. The spokesman said that Games Mart was shut down in 2004.

http://www.straitstimes.com/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/BgSty_152613_1.html

Odex blames the censorship laws in Singapore for inaccurate subbing. Odex says that they had to tweak subtitles in some of its anime to conform to the Board of Film Censors' (BFC) requirements. However this was refuted by the BFC, saying that they never asked for subtitles to be tweaked and would prefer accurate subbing as inaccurate subbing might mislead people into purchasing anime that is actually unsuitable.

Quote from Senior Asst. Director of Board of Film Censors on Odex's claims that they had to tweak subtitles to meet BFC's standard:

"The BFC has never asked for subtitles to be tweaked. We require that subtitles accurately reflect the content of a film or video so that we can classify the content accurately. Inaccurate subtitles also do no service to the community or to the young who may be misled into thinking that an anime is suitable for them when it could be meant for a higher age group."

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/209169.asp

Also shows that Peter Go, although registered as an administrator, has not been been active in the forum, causing many more netizens to be even more suspicious of whether Odex is listening to its consumer base. some forumers have revealed that the forum uses an IP Unmasker to check on the netizens, causing much alarm among the forumers

http://www.odex.com.sg/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135
http://www.odex.com.sg/forums/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=81
From Wikipedia.


I'm more concern about "how the Odex obtained the subtitles". It is quite obvious that Odex has downloaded anime online and is not prosecuted by the AVPA(anti-video piracy association). I believe the Corperation of Odex and the citizens of Singapore should receive the same treatment! Is this Singapore?
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zalas



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 100
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:51 am Reply with quote
la_contessa wrote:
zalas wrote:
Can you have copyright over an unauthorized derivative work that you have created?


Not in America. See, e.g., Sobhani v. @Radical.Media Inc., 257 F.Supp.2d 1234 (C.D.Cal. 2003) (commercial specs for Jack-in-the-Box featuring a copyrighted character are unauthorized derivative works, and plaintiff ad designer cannot sue for their infringement). If the original work "pervades" the derivative, there is no copyright even in any original elements. Considering that dialogue can fairly be said to pervade an anime series, its translation would not likely be enough originality to get a copyright The statute indicates that SOME level of originality may give a limited copyright, but it must be something specific that is added.

Ah, thanks for the pointer; I've always wanted to find some ruling like that and never came across it. Now just to find the judgement text...
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DarkMirage



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:58 am Reply with quote
tempest wrote:
However, if Odex actually asked a.f.k. for permission, this would be very good since a.f.k. is known as one of the rare fansub groups that really does a quality job, producing fansubs that are near, match, and even sometimes exceed the quality of professional translations. If this is the case, Odex's actions are a tribute to a.f.k. a nod to fansubs, and a benefit to consumers who want the best subtitles.


Having friends who worked for / are working for Odex right now, I can assure you that that is definitely not the case. :)

In the end, fansubbers can do nothing and most people will never know about this. Odex has it all figured out. And, flawed as they may be in certain situations, the laws allow it.

But still, it's interesting to wonder how Odex products will be like if they really somehow manage to achieve their stated long-term goal of eradicating fansubs, ironically their primary "reference" source.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:00 am Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:

More like "If you steal my car it's bad. So I steal it back, since it's my property. Not the best way to go about things, but you don't deserve to whine about it, car-stealer"

Mind you, this is all dependant about whether or not the subs were actually lifted from the fansubs- people claim this sort of thing all the time, but it's usually been proven wrong.

After the rather harsh treatment Odex has been given for cracking down on bootlegs, I certainly wouldn't blame them for striking back, though it is indeed rather an odd way [and a tad confrontational, *if* it's true]


Your analogy has only one failing, and that's that in this case the group did actually do the work involved in translating the text to english/etc. If that was too easy surely Odex would have just done it themselves. The fact it was easier to rip it from the fansub shows that they held some value in that. So if the thief were to upgrade your car and you were to keep the upgrades, it'd be a similar idea Razz Which I think you could probably say would be pretty lucky.

The fact we agree for totally different reasons is interesting though, lol.
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Kaioshin_Sama



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1215
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:42 am Reply with quote
So, like what's going on here? Has Odex said they took the subs from A.F.K or not? Why is everybody assuming guilt before both sides have had a chance to talk about this issue?

Does anybody give two damns about Audi Alteram Partem (Hear The Other Side in Latin) or does that just plain not exist in Singapore. Does anybody know what this means? It means that no one should be condemned without first being given the opportunity to respond to the accusations against them. It is also one of the principles of fundamental justice in the legal system of any truly free and democratic society. Meaning, maybe people should wait for an announcement before assuming guilt automatically based off of a couple of screenshots and trying to punish Odex via boycotts or however else they see fit. Better yet, wait for both a.f.k and Odex to have their say, then judge, not before.

Then again, who the hell listens to reason anymore anyway? Slam away at the evil Odex, don't give them their day out of whatever grudge you may hold against them over there. Forgive me for once again trying to provide a logical argument and solution to such a simple problem.
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