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Blood-
 It...it's not like I post for you or anything!
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 10756
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:38 am |
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Oh, for fu--- *smashes head against wall*
Seriously people. What is it going to take? How can I make you understand that I understand what the loophole is. There is no confusion in my mind how it worked. That. Is. My. Point. It is very clear. It is very understandable. Seeing it coming represents 2+2 in my book. There is no argument among us except that some of you believe it's not 2+2. That is all.
Jesus. |
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Blood-
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 10756
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:41 am |
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| jl07045 wrote: | | Well, yeah, but the spear was driven through him up to the mid part. He needed to put his hands further down the spear at least a couple of times to push it through himself that far. |
Yeah, so? Once it is in a little way, you just release your grip, re-grip the spear shaft lower down and pull forward. Rinse and repeat as often as desired. |
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Etrien
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 423
Location: Utsunomiya, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:56 am |
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Clearly the next episode needs to hurry and come out so we can talk about something else.
As an aside, I am kind of sad when I realize we're already down to four of the original seven servants. I suppose all good things must come to an end. |
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Ferian
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:04 am |
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| jl07045 wrote: | | Pointless Typemoon lore incoming: a command spell can't force teleportation unless the Servant is itself capable of true magic. Thus the effect is achieved in a different way, like super-high speed or something, which, as often happens in Nasuverse, reuce that rule to a useless technicality. |
*sigh* Ok, effective teleportation. It's the result that matters, not the process. Also, Saber developed a speed over 13 Mach when using the power of a Command Seal in F/HA. However, in F/SN, when Shirou called for her, she just appeared. She didn't crash into him at 13 Mach, she simply appeared on the ground right beneath him. My guess is that that command used the same principle as summoning so it's effective teleportation, not extremely fast movement.
But those are, as you have said, technicalities.
*loves Type-Moon lore because it is so warm and fuzzy*
edit: Oh, and to say something about the actual episode: Lancer is adorable.
Last edited by Ferian on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:05 am |
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| Blood- wrote: | | Yeah, so? Once it is in a little way, you just release your grip, re-grip the spear shaft lower down and pull forward. Rinse and repeat as often as desired. |
The sound effect was different though.  |
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Blood-
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 10756
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:06 am |
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If I had to guess, Berserker goes next. If I had never seen F/SN, I would have assumed that Saber and Gilgamesh would be the final two, but it seems unlikely this show will repeat that scenario. I guess that means a Saber vs Rider showdown at the end? If not that, then I predict a Gilgamesh vs. Rider finale with Saber having sacrificed herself earlier.
Note: none of the speculation above comes from being familiar with source material or reading spoilers somewhere else. Purely my own speculation. |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:11 am |
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| Ferian wrote: | | She simply appeared on the ground right beneath him. My guess is that that command used the same principle as summoning so it's effective teleportation, not extremely fast movement. |
My guess is that Nasu is not very clear about his rules. Caster teleported as well. |
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Yttrbio
Subscriber
Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:31 am |
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| It's magic! More specifically, the Command Spell has the power to cause whatever effect is most dramatically appropriate. You can think of them as favors that the writer owes the characters, which they can call in. So if you order that folks kill themselves, you're really picking up the phone and calling up the writer and saying "yeah, I need this dude dead." The exact mechanism is going to be the one that has the most punch from the writers' perspective. This is why Lancer can instantaneously put himself in a position to have the spear jabbed through his body like that (visual impact reasons) but didn't kill himself instantaneously (he'd miss out on the opportunity to deliver a dying speech). It's all very straightforward. Considering the crap that the participants get put through every time folks want to cash in on the Fate franchise, the creators owe the characters big time. |
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Ferian
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:12 am |
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| jl07045 wrote: | | My guess is that Nasu is not very clear about his rules. |
This is not a guess but solid facts laid out.
| jl07045 wrote: | | Caster teleported as well. |
Only because she has a monstrous amount of prana harvested from the town. And you know what? Command Seals operate a monstrous amount of prana.
@Blood-: Only spoilers about F/SN, Fate route or anime: There is a flashback scene showing Arturia and Gilgamesh fighting in a "sea of flames". She also comments that they were the last two Servants left. So there was nothing to speculate about from the start.
@Yttrbio: Ahahahahaha. *thumbs up* I really like that explanation. For it is one that makes the most sense. |
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Blood-
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 10756
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:28 am |
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| @ Ferian - I had wondered if there had been some mention of that in F/SN, but genuinely couldn't remember. Okay, so that settles that question, then. |
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Veers
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1163
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:30 am |
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Also on the spear thing, (FSN spoilers) Lancer in FSN [UBW route] is offed in the same way, so there was already a precedent for this and it didn't surprise me at all to see it happen again in Zero. Poor Lancer can't catch a break (as gleefully highlighted by one of the last Carnival Phantasm episodes).
| Blood- wrote: | | Note: none of the speculation above comes from being familiar with source material or reading spoilers somewhere else. Purely my own speculation. |
Not to discourage having fun with speculation, but as Ferian noted, FSN makes it pretty clear what happens at the end of F/Z, at least as far as the final battle outcome. Exactly how it happens is left to F/Z to detail, which is where much of my enjoyment of F/Z is coming from.
Edit: since you posted again while I was typing this... here's the gist of what was said (as far as I remember) in FSN if you want to know (someone correct me if needed).
General FSN spoilers and F/Z ending spoilers
Gil and Saber are the remaining two servants, they battle, and Kiri orders Saber to destroy the grail, hoping to end the cycle of wars forever. Gil gets coated in the grail's...goop, for lack of better term, which taints him. He goes into hibernation under the church as he and Kirei wait for the next war, which is why they call him an anomaly in FSN (and why his rivalry with Saber, who remembers the previous war, is so strong). |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:40 am |
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| Ferian wrote: | | Only because she has a monstrous amount of prana harvested from the town. And you know what? Command Seals operate a monstrous amount of prana. |
I know (I guess) that teleportation is supposed to be against the laws of nature, with the amount of prana not being a sufficient condition to accomplish the feat. But I'll agree with Yttrbio's explanation, even though I think he actually ruined the magic.  |
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Ferian
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:14 pm |
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| jl07045 wrote: | | I know (I guess) that teleportation is supposed to be against the laws of nature, with the amount of prana not being a sufficient condition to accomplish the feat. But I'll agree with Yttrbio's explanation, even though I think he actually ruined the magic. |
All of magecraft is against the laws of nature. That is pretty much the point. And teleportation is possible using science (albeit only teleportation of information thus far) which makes teleportation magecraft rather than True Magic, albeit it walks a fine line. In case of Servants, all that needs to be actually teleported is information, their body can be recreated from the prana of the Command Seal. So a great amount of prana is the only condition here, according to the rules of the Verse.
Oh, and quite obviously, teleporting actual matter would require much, much more prana. I think Dark Sakura is the only one who actually pulls that off, and we all know she cheats. |
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jl07045
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 708
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:16 pm |
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| Ferian wrote: | All of magecraft is against the laws of nature. That is pretty much the point. And teleportation is possible using science (albeit only teleportation of information thus far) which makes teleportation magecraft rather than True Magic, albeit it walks a fine line. In case of Servants, all that needs to be actually teleported is information, their body can be recreated from the prana of the Command Seal. So a great amount of prana is the only condition here, according to the rules of the Verse.
Oh, and quite obviously, teleporting actual matter would require much, much more prana. I think Dark Sakura is the only one who actually pulls that off, and we all know she cheats. |
Quantum teleportation (if that's what you're talking about) is not the teleportation that science fiction or we here deal with, information or not, so I don't think that'll fly, but anyway it's time to stop polluting this thread with all the Nasubabble. I'm bowing out. Until the next episode at least. |
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Jedi Master
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:09 pm |
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Regarding the Loophole: Consider from Kayneth's view the likelihood of Kiritsugu having an ally kill him are low.
Options:
1)A Servant: It is no secret that Saber is King Arthur, whose legendary honor is beyond reproach.
2)A summoned monster: Aren't these under the direct control of the summoner? If so, that would violate the contract.
3)A non-Master magi: this requires strong trust; Kayneth has personal and painful experience of how easily that trust can be broken. He also probably does not consider a gun wielding mage to be well regarded by other mages. The fact that Kayneth himself wields a gun in this episode illustrates how far he has fallen.
4)A Master magi: Kayneth's pride probably prevents him from even considering the possibility of Masters acting as allies in the Grail War. The call against Caster was a special case sanctioned by the church. Also going back to the previous point, Kayneth looked upon Kiritsugu with contempt in their previous battle. He probably assumes the other Masters would do the same.
5)A non-magi: non-magi are banned from witnessing the Grail War; violation of this rule is punishable by death. The church disqualified Caster and his Master for endangering the secrecy of the Grail War above all else. It is not unreasonable for Kayneth to assume Kiritsugu hasn't broken this rule.
Regarding Maiya made me think of F/SN: In the 5th Grail War Kirei allowed Lancer to abandon the fight with Archer to chase Shiro for witnessing their battle. Yet in the 4th Grail War Kirei didn't bother having Assassin kill Maiya after their battle in the forest. I don't remember if it was explained why he allowed Maiya to live. It does make me wonder if Maiya will do something to make him take the rule about non-magi more seriously in the future.
Regarding the command seals: Aren't the command seals and the Servants provided by the Grail itself? Doesn't that give the seals the ability to perform miraculous feats of magic with regard to the Servants? |
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