Forum - View topicAnime Canonization: Good, bad, and reviewers!
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CureWhite
Posts: 6 |
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OK.. I've been an anime fan for a quite a long time, not as long as some, I know, but I've been around. I mean I remember the days when Fansubbers sold VHS tapes on their websites and when you went to a store and there were like maybe 5 different titles (normally like DBZ, Fushigi Yuugi, and some various hentai especially La Blue Girl) and the tapes came in either subbed or dubbed with the dub being cheaper (that never made sense to me). You were LUCKY to find subs and generally had to special order them. Anyhow, that's long gone and we have wonderful DVDs where you can just buy that for cheaper and get it subbed (except for that Devilman OVA by MangaCorps.. that made me mad.. oh so mad). So basically, I've been around and I've seen quite a lot of anime, though not as much as some I'm sure, but the thing that's always struck me is what is canon in the Anime world. What we consider staples of certain genres and what not and how there are classics, there are those that are constantly replaced, and there are those that just get shot down before they even have the chance.
The big thing that's always bothered me is reviewers and their role in canonizing anime. I mean movies and Anime that I've found to be severly lacking (Like Mononoke-hime and Dragon Ball) or series I've found completely uniteresting (like Cowboy Bepop) get tons of praise and are considered great anime, while Anime I love and have enjoyed have often gotten shot down before they get a chance (like Brain Power'd or Futari wa Pretty Cure). I've seen reviewers who just rip a good series/movie to shreds because they didn't understand it or didn't do any research. For instance, a few years ago (back before Yu-Gi-Oh came to America), I saw a review of the Yu-Gi-Oh movie that just condemed the movie and the entire Yu-Gi-Oh series as being nothing more than an attempt to boost sales in a card game, but the reviewer made no mention of the fact that the card game came out AFTER the series had started as a demand of the fans nor did he/she meniton that the Yu-Gi-Oh series started out with nothing to do with the card game and it just became the focus nor did he/she mention that Yu-Gi-Oh is a sports series and that the movie and series are typical representations of that. I've often seen this with the Mahou SHoujo Sentai-type series (i.e. the ones like Sailor Moon), where people write them off immeditately as being formulaic (which they are, but each one has some unique elements). I've also seen series like Brain Power'd get slammed endlessly (by reviewers who claimed it was "confusing" because they couldn't tell the difference between a Brain Power'd or a Grand Cher and which side they were on, even though if you watch the actual series it's pretty obvious since they show you who is piloting it almost all the time) solely because Yoshiyuki Tomino, the creator, was reported as saying he hated Evangelion and he created Brain Power'd as his answer to Evangelion (i.e. a show about living mecha). These things make me wonder about reviewers and how reliable they are and how often they let biases effect their reviewing of the series. It also makes me wonder because certain things become so prevelant in the Anime community (like Mononoke-hime or Akira), which just aren't all that great. I'm sorry, but Mononoke-hime was just a huge eco-flick with a non-ending that made no sense (everything changes around these people and their world view is completely shaken, yet they just return to life like nothing happened? That just doesn't work for me). Let me also add here that there needs to be a different line drawn between popular and good. Just because something is popular (I.E. Titanic) does not make it good. If you go back and look at the history of English Literature (or probably any literature), the writers and writings of the time that were considered popular are rarely the ones that have survived and lasted into what we now consider the literary canon. So here's my basic point, I was recently on another message board and we were forming a list of "must watch" anime for people who were interested in Anime, but hadn't really gotten into it and I saw a desire to move towards newer anime (as well as shonen since surprise surprise, most Shoujo Anime doesn't make it to our shores and what little does, rarely seems to take off) as well as eleminating anime based on just pure reaction instead of understanding it's place in it's genre. For instance, anime like Tenchi Muyo were removed while Love Hina was kept, Sailor Moon was removed completely because it's genre is Mahou Shoujo and CardCaptor Sakura (which is still Mahou Shoujo, but a different type) was offered as it's replacement. Other Anime that I think of as canon (like Slayers) were left off completely while Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball Z, and Gundam Wing all were highly recommended (well Naruto got bumped down a little for too many filler episodes, but it was still kept on the list). I know the later got kudos because they appeared on American TV, but honestly.. were they really that great that they should represent Anime to someone new to Anime while older series that are just as good if not better like Hunter X Hunter (which I still think is better than Naruto), Flame of Recca, Saint Seiya, or El Hazard aren't? And if you're going to make a must watch list, shouldn't it be balanced? Shouldn't it represent various genres (I.E. the best in each genre or several very good and different series like say Prince of Tennis and Yakitate! Japan for Sports Anime)? And why is it shoujo anime ALWAYS gets the shaft (every list I've seen is almost always 75% or more Shonen with mention to a few staple Shoujo series like Tenkuu no Escaflowne, CardCaptor Sakura, and Fushigi Yuugi). |
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Eruanna
 Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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I think what you have to remember when reading reviews, is that the people writing them are just human like you. They have their own opinions, their own likes and dislikes, pet peeves and personal favourites.
A good reviewer obviously will try to write from a non biased viewpoint, but a lot of the reviews out there (espcially if your browsing anime blogs) are amatuer work. And at the end of the day, you may not even agree with the professional ones, and thats OK. A review is NEVER the absolute authority on how good a show is, its just designed as a way for people to look into a show before they decide if they want to watch it. If your interested in a show, dont worry about the reviews. You are allowed to form your own opinions. In fact, it is encouraged! |
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Well first, you sound "annoyed" because you don't like some of the hugely popular anime like Princess Mononoke or Cowboy bebop. I don't really care whether you like them or not, but if they get universal praise from fans, critics and amateur reviewers alike, you can bet it's not because they're just simply "overhyped". YOU believing popularity =/= good is your opinion as is others opinion that think some of your titles are "bad" or "so-so".
Second, that forum is just that, that forum, not this one or any others. You talk about "shoujo getting no respect" here and I'm sure you'll get a bunch of baffled expressions. Shoujo is pretty damn popular, and especially here.(Go check out the manga section for solid proof of this) I would recommend Naruto before Honey and Clover to someone new because I know it's easier to get into Naruto. I rate Naruto a 6-9/10 depending exactly what episodes you're talking about, but H & C a 10/10, easily. Going with that train of thought, recommending newer shows to people is also probably going to get them more interested. If something IS old, it probably looks old and that can be a turn off to a lot of people. It seems you need to read around more, I suppose. It is HARDLY an "action only fest" in these threads. |
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Ultenth
 Posts: 229 Location: Washington State |
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I do agree though, on a lot of websites that don't have as many well-informed people such as here and sites like animesuki etc. a lot of the "top 10 lists" are pretty much the same, and usually contain a lot of the same ones, which mostly are only anime that people that are very casual anime fans have watched, such as DBZ, Naruto, Eva, Bebop, etc.
Most of them are stuff that has been shown on Cartoon network, and most of them are mostly shonen work. This is simply because a lot of people that make these lists (such as on amazon or whatever misc site) are representative of the larger more casual fanbase of anime in the US, which is younger men that want to watch big mecha or cool martial arts stuff. There is a very strong upswell in anime and manga fans of different genre's, but I would still say that most of the fans in the US are in that category. But that is not a bad thing, I consider those "entry level anime" which will hopefully peak the viewers interest enough that they will do some research and try to find out what else is out there, in the process becoming more informed, and exposing themselves to a larger variety of anime. This has the wonderful side-effect of increases sales for the atypical (in the US anyway) animes, which means the likelyhood of future animes that are more unique making it to the states. I don't know about you, but I see that as a good thing. No way would I recommend someone who has never watched anime before to just pick up any random one out there, as it could very well be something that could completely not be their style and put them off anime forever. |
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CureWhite
Posts: 6 |
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Eruanna.. I've seen how reviewers can and do shoot down shows completely so that people do not watch them. Heck, you can see it in just about every genre where if a reviewer hated or praises things, people read or don't read it based SOLELY on that. Now there are others, but when 20 reviewers say the same thing and it's clear that none of them have actually SEEN the anime (as had happened with Brain Power'd.. I dunno if those reviews are still up, but when I looked at them years ago, they all said pretty much the same thing like the reviewers had just read what OTHER people had said about the series instead of watching it themselves). As for a reviewers being human, yes they are.. but is it too much to expect someone who is reviewing a work to actually UNDERSTAND something about it before they start? Why shoot down Prince of Tennis because it's a sports Anime? If you don't like sports anime, don't watch it.. fine, but don't say it's bad without understanding what it is OR simply because of what it is.
Vortextk.. I never said I didn't like Cowboy Bepop, only that I don't find it interesting in the least. And as for being over-hyped, sure there is that.. Evangelion in my opinion is vastly over-hyped, but it's still pretty good. In fact it's probably one of the better psychological dramas, though I perfer Serial Experiment Lain. And if you read, I actually pointed out that popularity does NOT equal a good anime. It only makes it popular. Now for your next point, this is an ANIME forum. I am specifically talking about Shoujo ANIME, not MANGA. Manga is a horse of a different colour entirely. Manga is typically MARKETED towards female readers here in America. It's just a simple fact that women tend to read more Manga than men. So the MANGA market is a different thing (though I'd bet you that you'd find that the Manga Market is more evenly split with Shonen/Shoujo than the ANIME market is). As for Naruta vs. Honey and Clover, well.. you're comparing an action seires with a slice of life drama. Very different stuff. Naruto vs. Fushigi Yuugi or Magic Knight Rayearth might be more appriopriate since they're closer in genre than Naruto and Honey and Clover. Now if you were saying you'd recommend Video Girl Ai or Aa! Megami-sama over Honey and Clover.. well that'd probably be a little more comprable as well. Ultenth.. Now for recommendations, I would recommend an Anime that is completely not someone's general style to them simply because it exposes them to something new and different that they may not THINK they like, but they actually do. I've watched several anime where I was not sure I'd like them in the least and I LOVED them. Other anime, like Evangelion or Haibane Renmei, I thought I'd instantly fall for, and I was left with a luke-warm feeling about. Plus it's often a good idea to recommend a lesser known anime or one that someone HASN'T heard of simply because you DO get them into new anime. Honestly though, telling people to watch Bleach after there are like 50 million topics talking about Bleach is a little.. redudant to me. Why not recommend YuYu Hakusho instead? Or Shinigami no Ballad? I recently met a guy who loved Bleach, so I introduced him to Slayers and Loveless.. Guess what? He loves both even though they're very different than Bleach. Oh and if anybody is going to be "turned off" anime by ONE Anime they don't like, they'll never be an Anime fan period because they don't understand that Anime is a medium, not a genre. |
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Leuconoe
 Posts: 83 |
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I've been considering how a reviewing task should be approached lately. Certainly a reviewer should be fair and dispassionate, stepping outside of their own biases, enough to make their review informative. Failure to do this results in texts which are not reviews but polemics - either in favour or against the reviewed object. A polemic can be interesting and entertaining, but it is rarely very informative. Of course, reviewing something without seeing any of it is ethical collapse. Simple as that.
Certainly, with the proviso that the recipient of the recommendation is warned that they're not being given a 'X really would suit you' recommendation. Now, on the vexed subject of canon. What makes a canon (not specifically in Anime)? Now, this is not something I've considered before, so I'm just thinking aloud here . . . Canon is a word from the semantics of sainthood and scriptural authority, nowadays commonly applied to the collecting together of 'great' works in a given medium which in some way represent the 'best' that that medium has to offer. In English literature, the example you mentioned, the canon is mostly if not entirely made up of the Dead White Men whose names Spenser would no doubt preface with Dan [note to bemused readers - this is like a Masonic handshake, ignore it]. Now, in media which have existed for many generations, canonicity has very little to do with popularity among the general 'fanbase' for those media, and very much to do with the hindsight of the current generation of critics (be they art critics, literature critics, music critics et cetera et cetera). Although actually one might say that it has very much to do with the works' popularity with the critics. Once the mob has passed on, the people who remain interested in the old parts of the medium become the critics, and works which are popular with them enter the canon (note that as their popularity with critics waxes and wanes, works can rise or fall within a canon and even leave it). The canon of literature generally (stepping away from any particular language for a moment) has been around for at least 3000 years (since the standardisation of the Epic of Gilgamesh into one particular Akkadian dialect, which happened at the latest in c. 1000 B.C.) Anime's 'canon', if there is such a thing, is not in this position. Anime hasn't been around for 3000 years. If we were to examine its Western fans, we wouldn't find many who'd been aware of it for 30 years (I wasn't aware of anything 30 years ago). In this situation 'canon' is perhaps more closely linked to popularity than one might hope. The mob have not passed on. In fact, you and I are the mob, at least as far as the Western 'fandom' is concerned. So I don't worry about the canonisation. That hasn't really happened yet, and it will happen in its own good time, and even people who might consider themselves critics right now have no idea what will happen in a generation's time. For example, here's Dr Johnson (incidentally the second most quoted member of the 'English Literary Tradition') passing judgement on a certain pillar of the novel genre after the hype of its initial publication had died down: 'Nothing odd will do long. Tristram Shandy did not last.' |
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Ultenth
Posts: 229 Location: Washington State |
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I agree that its great to tell people to try other, more obscure thing, in order to get them to expand their horizans. I guess what I was trying to point out is that anime is generally very very different than entertainment in the US. Most people just getting into it can be quite confused early on simply because they don't "get" it, in terms of sense of humor, how the drama or romance is done, etc. My preferance with people I'm suggesting anime to is to ease them into it gently, by suggesting anime that I feel easily translates to someone not familiar with the genre. As every anime fan knows there is a huge difference in sense of humor and various other things from Japanese culture and our own, or really any two cultures. I would rather not scare off my friends from the genre entirely by suggesting that the first anime they watch be something that may confuse them, or annoy them sense they don't get why something is supposed to be funny. Hope that explains my stance better, I feel the same way when suggesting books and music to people. Suggest entry level stuff that may be similar to what they like, then once they have a stronger base of understanding, give them suggestions that allow them to delve in deeper. And because they already have a strong foundation, the more obscure stuff will be more understandable to them right away, and they are more likely to enjoy it. |
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CureWhite
Posts: 6 |
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Leuconoe.. wow. I can definitely say you've got a great grasp of the English language and you seem to be very on top of the concept of canonization, but.. here's the thing.. Canon of literature may have started 3000 years ago, BUT canon of any particular language only is basis on that language.. Then you have canon in particular genres of liteature which some are vastly younger than others. Also, the canon of litterature may be typically the Dead White Man view, it's CONSTANTLY changing. They are to this day still discovering new works and re-discovering women writers and non-caucasian writers (though typically in English, it's gonna be a "Dead White Men's" group for a bit since English hasn't always been as prolific as it is today). Canon can change and will change.
As for the canon of Anime, well.. it's probably closer to almost 40 years now that anime really came about. Osamu Tezuka is known as the Grandfather of Anime and his early works started in the 60's, so 40 years is a while.. Anyhow, as for it limited to popularity, that's not necissarily true, though that is part of what makes something canon period. Emily Dickinson is part of the American Renissance not just because she's a great poet with an amazing technique and a different voice than most of her contemporaries as well as lasting themes, but also because people LIKE HER. So what makes Anime canon? Well, the fact that people actually remember and still watch a series, tells you something about it, does it not? The fact that fans still look for and watch Maison Ikkoku or Ranma 1/2 tells you something right? And of course, Evangelion is a canon series solely because of it's revolutionary tactics and what not.. I think it's easy to argue for a canon in Anime. For instance, Ai Tenshi Densetsu Wedding Peach would probably never make it onto a canon list, even though it is a pretty good Anime, but it's too much like Sailor Moon and since Sailor Moon did it first and did it better.. well which would be included? Oh yeah part of canon is not only just popularity, but which came first and which is revolutionary? I mean.. Tenchi Muyo is considered the first Harem Anime, so shouldn't that be considered a canon (at least Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-Ohki). We have an entire GENRE of anime because of it. Part of it is also taking a well known and kind of tried and true formula and doing something new and different with it like Yakitate! Japan takes the sports genre and takes it to an entirely different place.. I mean a sports anime about baking bread? |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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So here's how I see your point: "I disagree with lists of the best (or "canon") titles of most anime websites; they should recommend something else." Period. Feel free to host a website of your own, with your personal lists.
Would you please tell us where you learned that information? He was, however, the father of lazy animation on TV, thanks to the ultra-limited budget per episode back then. |
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NocturnalUX
 Posts: 448 Location: Portugal |
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I do not wish to start a polemic but isn't the above behaviour of ripping a series based on one's personal assessement more or less what you have done in your evaluation of Akira and Princess Monoke? I am not saying that you should not voice your opinion, you are more than welcomed to, but it seems a bit of a contradiction that you would protest against subjective downplaying of a particular anime only to incur in that exact same "error". |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18185 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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CureWhite, you do realize that being a Brain Powered fanboy makes you a rare breed?
There's a good reason why Brain Powered has gotten bashed the way it has: it really isn't that good. I have seen the whole series and written my own thorough review for it. (This was in my days before starting to work at ANN.) You can see its full version here, but this is the most relevant part:
To that I would add that the series has a wonderful set of female character designs but weighs them down with utterly uninteresting mecha designs and only mediocre overall artistic and technical merits. It also features some of the most demeaning treatment of Americans of any anime series, but it does have a lot of very pretty nudity involving most of its female cast in its opener, which is the main reason I'll never forget the series. (In terms of an opener reflecting series content, it has one of the most incongruous openers of any anime series.) Granted, this is just one person's opinion, but the rankings on ANN's Encyclopedia page for the series tend to support my evaluation. The series may have its merits, and may have worthwhile things to say, but when the execution is lacking the mass of viewers pick up on that. Sorry, but this one is nowhere near in the same league as Princess Mononoke in any measure of quality or in its ability to convey an ecological message, and raving about it while saying that movies like Akira and PM "aren't all that great" is not going to get me to take you seriously. I do agree that some popular titles don't deserve the lauding for quality that they get, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Concerning your comments about "must-watch" lists, that issue comes down to making a basic decision: do you want to base a "must-watch" list on accessibility, on top-quality picks, or on prime representations of specific genres? You might be able to to any of two of these together, but definitely not all three. I favor the notion that "must-watch" lists should be composed of consistently highly-rated titles that would appeal to nearly anyone regardless of their normal genre preferences. That's why Ghibli movies so often pop up in such discussions; think well of them or not, they're invariably well-made and can be appreciated by nearly anyone, fan or not. Series like Love Hina and Prince of Tennis don't fit in such a case because they're both too locked into their respective genres to have a broad appeal. The same, unfortunately, can also be said of most shojo titles, which tend to be less accessible to non-shojo fans than shonen titles are. |
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FanFicGuru
Posts: 159 |
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I'm going to agree with dormcat on this one. Try as you might to convince us otherwise, it seems like you're standing on a soap-box proclaiming the evils of streamline anime. Kudos to you for recommending lesser known anime to people, but don't expect us all to come rushing to your side in agreement, especially when the shows you're claiming aren't all that great are, for the most part, Canon series/movies.
On the subject of Canonizing a medium that hasn't been around for 3,000 years like literature has, I would argue that exceptional works in any medium can begin to establish a Canon, regardless of the time that said medium has been in place. Many fans agree that Akira is extremely well done and as such anime fans owe it to themselves to watch it at least once. Whether or not they enjoy the film, they should at least give it credit for providing a channel for anime to come into the USA with a bit more force behind it. It's also important to remember who makes the Canon. In the case of Literature the Canon is created by book reviewers and literati who agree that a particular text portrays the zeitgeist of their time, or that it's exceptionally written and an example of what literature should be (and do). Typically, the literati and reviewers inducting the literature into the Canon were there for a reason, and the average reader agrees with their decisions (for the most part). The anime Canon, I believe, would be constructed in a similar manner. Editors and reviewers all over the country can pick out an exceptional series/movie when they see one and typically the fans are in agreement with them. In this way a Canon is created, and whether an individual agrees with the placement of particular series or movies within the canon is a moot point, because the Canon has been established only because of the works' ability to impress itself upon others. Does the Canon change? Of course. Additions can be made, series can be taken out...but the point is it isn't because of one person claiming injustice within the Canon, it requires a much larger push from the community (of anime lovers/readers/music lovers... whatever) to alter the Canon. I think that's all I've got to say at the moment. Interesting topic. EDIT: And Nocturnal also points out another key flaw in your argument. If you're going to criticize letting personal bias affect the fair review of a series, don't let your own personal biases taint the depiction of other series/movies (regardless of whether or not they need your approval) |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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You're putting alot of emphasis on what others think. If you like Brain Powered, go ahead and watch it. However its just silly to get upset because a lot of other people think it sucks. Let other people dislike it if they want. That has no effect on your enjoyment of it.
If you're concerned that its bad reputation or bad reviews will cause others to avoid it, you need to understand that people probably should avoid it. You may find merit in it, but statistically most people do not. Therefore it would be ill advised for people to watch it on the off chance that they like it. They would be better off to watch something the is generally considered to be good because the chances are much higher that they will like it. Its a reviewers job to look at Anime from the perspective that the majority of people would. I think your claims that reviewers act biased or for that matter, review something without having seen it, or researched it enough are unfounded. Do you have any decent examples of such things? (In your example with Yugioh, I believe by the time the movie was out it had become focused entirely on the card game which was out by that time regardless of how it started.) Also, if a reviewer doesn't like something because they have trouble understanding it, it is again a sign that the majority of people will have the same problem. |
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Leuconoe
Posts: 83 |
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It's a side issue, but I'm not sure a rigid separation between literary works can be made on the basis of their language. That's before we even get to works written in multiple languages ('Ma tresduce et tresame / nyght and day for love of the / Suspiro')!
But the people who like her are the critics. Almost no one else reads her poetry. The proportion of critics to 'normal' readers is much higher than even a modern poet, let alone a modern novelist.
I think what I'm trying to say is that it's impossible to have an anime canon in the same sense that there's a literary canon. Because we're only one or two generations in, it's impossible to separate the critics from the 'normal people'. Which means that the anime canon, such as we have one, means very little as it's really still about what has sustained popularity with hoi polloi (these forums seem to lack a cyrillic character set for some unfathomable reason  ).
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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And it matters because...? Sure people don't have to watch shoujo anime because they read it, but saying it's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, is plainly wrong. I'm pointing out the manga section because you can easily see how much shoujo is appreciated there, even easier than in the anime section. |
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