Forum - View topicNEWS: Japanese Animators, Directors Establish First Union
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Moomintroll Posts: 1008 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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The UK minimum wage is £5.52 - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ So, yes - our minimum wage is about twice yours. Then again, the cost of living is also higher here (though not twice as high by any stretch of the imagination)...but as I said, it's even higher in Tokyo so you would expect a reasonable Japanese minimum wage to be substantially higher than ours, let alone yours. |
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| Moomintroll Posts: 1008 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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According to Wikipedia (I know, I know - I try not to quote Wikipedia if it can be helped but the source is a Japanese government document so it's probably kosher) - "In Japan minimum wage depends on the industry and the region. The lowest minimum wage for a region (Miyazaki) is ¥4,712 (~US$40) per day, and the highest minimum wage for a region (Tokyo, Kanagawa, Osaka) is ¥5465 (~US$46.30) per day. The minimum wages are set by the Minister of Labour or the Chief of the Prefectural Labour Standards Office. Recommendations are made by the Minimum Wage Council." |
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Porcupine Posts: 1033 |
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| Hrm. So, I guess as expected, in Japan the minimum wage is about the same as (or slightly less than) the minimum wage in the USA. So the lowest-paid animators make the Japanese minimum wage. That seems reasonable to me.
Also, this brings up another inconsistency. Most likely the ANN article is wrong. $500 a month is certainly below the Japanese minimum wage, by a factor of two! Someone made a mistake. Like I said before, I have trouble believing the exact numbers of the ANN article. |
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| Egan Loo Posts: 353 |
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Again, at least the 20-30% of the animators are not making the Japanese minimum wage, but less.
That's the point. That's one of the issues JAniCA is trying to address. There are animators making that little.
See for yourself. |
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| Moomintroll Posts: 1008 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Wouldn't that depend on whether they're permenant staff or freelancers? My understanding was that many anime production staff were freelancers. Is that now a thing of the past? Also, the level of the minimum wage is not indicative of the rightness of the minimum wage. If the US minimum wage was $1, would it be right for Walmart or Burger King to pay their employees at that level or would said employees then have good reason to complain and organise? I'd say if you're working excessive hours and still ending up on or below the poverty line, you've got cause to complain regardless of whether minimum wage levels are being met. |
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| Porcupine Posts: 1033 |
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| I thought that the definition of minimum wage is that it is not legal for any employer to play any employee less than the minimum wage. At least that is the definition in the USA. It shouldn't be possible for an animator to be paid less than Japanese minimum wage. Something is fishy.
And, I do agree that the level of the minimum wage may not be indicative of its "rightness." But the Japanese government sets that, and I assume they are far smarter than me when it comes to matters of economics and human resources. I don't really feel like arguing with them. |
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Dargonxtc Posts: 4154 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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They would have a good reason to find another line of work. 
Conversely, would raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour actually make more people less poor, or just cause massive inflation and/or massive layoffs? One of the biggest myths out there right now is that minimum wage has anything to do with adjustments to the poverty line. |
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| Rawler Posts: 11 |
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Many of these outsource to Korea--Groening especially. |
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| Moomintroll Posts: 1008 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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It didn't have any noticable effect on either inflation or employment levels when we introduced a minimum wage for the first time here about 10 years ago and nor has raising it in line with inflation / cost of living (as most European nations do once every year or so). And if a person working a full time job doesn't earn enough to rise above the poverty line then the minimum wage most certainly has something to do with it on the individual level. |
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| Tyrenol Posts: 350 Location: Northern California |
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What about the cost of living? |
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| Dargonxtc Posts: 4154 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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That's almost assuredly because the limit was set very low, so low that in fact not very many business had to change there pay/cost structure. Rule of thumb, if a permanent cost to buisness is introduced that won't change total costs by 10% in either direction, then the business can usually adapt to it without causing change in product price. One glaring exception to this is the agriculture sector. Also I can't speak for Europe, but in free market US there has been marketed inflation after every minimum wage increase. This occurs normally 3-9 months after the new limit was put in action, slowely increasing to about 2 years. Cancelling any effect the increase was aimed at. Also if your comparing the Euro to the Dollar then you very well may have had inflation and just not have felt it yet due to the extremely weak greenback.
This sentence assumes a lot of things that I really don't want to get into. Namely that on individual levels circumstances and effects change as quickly as the wind. It would be a long post, so I will try to skip some of that and give the short version. First I would like to say I am not against having a minimum wage, I just think that changes to that minimum wage have very little intended effects, and a lot of unintended ones. Without really getting into it, and making it simple: Poverty/Quality of Life (Affects <--->) Minimum Wage Minimum wage (Does not affect >---<) Poverty/Quality of Life In other words the wage is determined by the quality of life, however unnatural changes to that wage will have extremly little affect on the quality of life. ------------------------------------------------- Either way, I stand by my first statement. When your working 60 hour weeks and can't afford an apartment then obviously the market hasn't done its job, something has to be done. Whether or not this is the right thing to do will remain to be seen, but I have no animosity towards them trying to take this action. |
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| GATSU Posts: 8423 |
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| Rawler: The issue was quality, not where it was made.
Dargon:
You do know most European countries have living wages, right?
Inflation has to do with market forces outside of a wage increase. If you'd been paying attention, the cost of living was going up for the last decade, even without a minimum wage increase.
Yes, Enron is just an exception to the fickle market trends, not the rule.
It's certainly better than letting price-jacking vultures kick out tenants from old apartment buildings, and replace the properties with condos in the hundred-thousand range as what's going on in L.A... |
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| Moomintroll Posts: 1008 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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If memory serves, the minimum wage we had introduced a decade ago was higher than the US minimum wage is now. It was certainly low from the union's point of view but it wasn't negligable.
US political rhetoric is (mostly) more free market than European political rhetoric but it doesn't mean you actually have a free market - you have more subsidies and corporate tax breaks than any European nation or than the European Union as a whole. The major difference is simply that we have higher taxes and that a greater proportion of taxes goes on social rather than military spending.
It's the Pound I was comparing to the Dollar. I'm not sure why the weakness of the dollar would cloak inflation here? We do far more business with the rest of Europe than with the US.
Well on that we can certainly agree. This is a major step forward for trans-Atlantic relations! |
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| Dargonxtc Posts: 4154 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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You act as if I was saying wage increase is the only thing that affects inflation. I wasn't. However to say it has nothing to do with it is naive.
You really need to expand beyond your usual one liners for this one. I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say, except throwing out an emotional catch word. If you are trying to say that I don't think corporate corruption exists, then you will be sorely mistaken. On the flipside I loathe the idea that many youngsters put out that all corporations are evil, and that profit is a bad word. It is nothing more than a banner for saying throw out a bushel(system) of peaches because one of them is bruised. There are tons of examples of bad union corruption as well, and even I wouldn't say throw them all out, and I am at best extremely cautious about the formation and power structure of them.
I am not aware of whats going on in LA, but if people are stealing then that is a bad thing. However if you are just talking about re-zoneing then that happens all over the country pretty much all the time since I have been on this Earth. Either way, I was talking about employers, not slumlords all of a sudden deciding to be real estate venture capitalists. <--A favorite thing of the American left to do, as it will increase the tax base revenue for a given city. With the most recent examples of the reinterpretation of the eminent domain laws to include increasing tax revenue.
*(who only represent people that belong with there union by the way)
Well I have to wholeheartedly agree with this statement(with few exceptions, but I don't want to nit-pick). What I was trying to say was in comparison a freer market, but you are right to point out that even in the United States there isn't a true free market. In fact one of the only true free markets in the States is the illegal drug trade. Also I would like to point out that in the States corporations don't pay taxes, consumers do. Which is one of the reasons windfall profit taxes would have the opposite intended effect, and why the idea is laughable.
[off-topic inside joke he may or may not get]- I hear the shopping is great in New York. [/joke]
No worries mate, were getting there. In 30 years we will be a welfare state. As soon as 51% of the population realizes that they can vote for the "right" to other peoples money, or the more traditional moniker "redistribution of wealth" if you like. I could go into the history of why that would be bad for our country, but few people know anything about history anymore, it's boring to them, and anything new that they have read has been edited for PC. Plus it would be kinda a waste anyway becaue I am positive it will happen. But in short, yes there is a lot our cultures have in common, and it's in both of our countries best interests to have friendly relations. Sure there are policy things over there that I might not agree with, but I think Europeans can run Europe however they feel they want too. And that no one should be able to tell them otherwise. I just hope that same ideal is returned. Edit: Underline added Last edited by Dargonxtc on Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Moomintroll Posts: 1008 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Well, actually, it would be the TUC (Trades Union Council) rather than individual unions.
Naturally they're interconnected but, not being an economist, I don't understand why a weak US dollar would necessarily result in inflation in the UK. In any case, when we introduced the minimum wage, Clinton the First was in power, there was no Euro and the dollar was doing reasonably well.
Well, of course - like the rest of the world we sell you stuff, lend you money to pay for it and buy as little in return as possible.
I'm doing my bit to help address your trade defecit by importing anime that hasn't been licensed over here. No applause necessary.
That would be ironic given the current rightward, economically liberal (and hopefully not too longlived) trend of recent European politics. Last edited by Moomintroll on Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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