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Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3862
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.
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 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:51 pm |
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| babbo wrote: |
The difference is that we're talking about going from a situation where it isn't regulated to one where it is. Btw child abuse is illegal in japan, I may be misreading your post but from the way you wrote it seems you think otherwise.
Most cultures (even Japanese culture) think cartoons are childish >.>
The fact that it's a subculture denotes that it isn't a majority -.-;; |
You are misreading my posts, because I've only mentioned child porn, not child abuse which though could be also sexual, it encompasses mental and physical abuse as well. I will hazard a guess that if Japan had the same regulations and laws as the UK tomorrow, the situation there would be about the same as here in at least a few years time if the Japanese authorities enforce those regulations as robustly as ours. There would be lots more reports of stings, raids, arrests and confiscations. Also the fact that in Japan child abuse is illegal, but not the distribution of child porn manga makes the situation there even more ludicrous. |
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angel_lover
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 645
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:57 pm |
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| Mohawk52 wrote: | | Are you seriously implying that all those people, who said there should be regulations controlling child porn manga and anime, are "uninformed"? |
Yes.
Despite my loathing for most things American, right now I wish you were an American because then at least you'd have some residual concept of freedom. But because most people in the UK don't know what freedom is, it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. Let me try to make it easy for you. Even if 100% of the people in a country said that something should be so, that doesn't make it right. Like most of the sheeple in our near-police-state of a country, you completely fail to distinguish between the unpopular and the untenable. If I don't like something, that's no reason to ban it. If I and a thousand other people don't like something, that's still no reason to ban it. And even if all 50 million of us don't like something, even that's not a vaild reason to ban it. In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
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Dargonxtc
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4154
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:36 pm |
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| angel_lover wrote: | | In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
How exactly would such a study be carried out in order for it to be legitimate?  |
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babbo
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:37 pm |
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| Mohawk52 wrote: | | babbo wrote: |
The difference is that we're talking about going from a situation where it isn't regulated to one where it is. Btw child abuse is illegal in japan, I may be misreading your post but from the way you wrote it seems you think otherwise.
Most cultures (even Japanese culture) think cartoons are childish >.>
The fact that it's a subculture denotes that it isn't a majority -.-;; |
You are misreading my posts, because I've only mentioned child porn, not child abuse which though could be also sexual, it encompasses mental and physical abuse as well. I will hazard a guess that if Japan had the same regulations and laws as the UK tomorrow, the situation there would be about the same as here in at least a few years time if the Japanese authorities enforce those regulations as robustly as ours. There would be lots more reports of stings, raids, arrests and confiscations. Also the fact that in Japan child abuse is illegal, but not the distribution of child porn manga makes the situation there even more ludicrous. |
Typo, what I meant to say is that Child porn (as you put it "live action stuff") in japan as well I , they just happen to see the drawn stuff in a different light.
Even in western countries it's a more recent development that representational mediums (whether it be 3D animation, sculpture, drawings or the like) have become considered child pornography if they show an underage individual in the process of enacting obscene acts. In the US for instance the current law that restricts child virtual child pornography is the the PROTECT act of 2003 (before that there was the Child pornography prevention act but it was struck down by the supreme court) and even thats been brought to question.
| angel_lover wrote: | | Mohawk52 wrote: | | Are you seriously implying that all those people, who said there should be regulations controlling child porn manga and anime, are "uninformed"? |
Yes.
Despite my loathing for most things American, right now I wish you were an American because then at least you'd have some residual concept of freedom. But because most people in the UK don't know what freedom is, it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. Let me try to make it easy for you. Even if 100% of the people in a country said that something should be so, that doesn't make it right. Like most of the sheeple in our near-police-state of a country, you completely fail to distinguish between the unpopular and the untenable. If I don't like something, that's no reason to ban it. If I and a thousand other people don't like something, that's still no reason to ban it. And even if all 50 million of us don't like something, even that's not a vaild reason to ban it. In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
huh o,o?
*hands him a straight jacket*
It's wackos like you that make me wish I was Canadian or something<.< |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:00 pm |
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| Amasa wrote: |
I'm not sure I agree with you. I'm living in Japan currently and nearly every Seven11 I walk into has what I would call niche anime porn magazines, for example I saw one with a cute loli on the cover with a bleeding clitoris, it was plastic sealed. I'm friends with a group of highschool girls here who are the biggest lolicon fans - and are fairly normal people otherwise, and when I told them that it makes me feel sick they asked me why.
Maybe what you're saying only refers to the older generation. Keep in mind that Japan has a pretty high population of sexually deprived, creepy otaku men. It's been over a decade since the Miyazaki Tsutomu case and I don't see any cultural aversion to anime or otaku. |
Almost every 7-11 I walk into in Sunny San Diego (that haven't burned down) as well as the the Circle K's, liquor stores, & similar shops all have a large spread of porn such as Playboy for sale. Why should they be any dif in Japan? Doesn't mean if you walk into a mom/pop shop you'll see similar porn.
| Quote: | | Despite my loathing for most things American, right now I wish you were an American because then at least you'd have some residual concept of freedom. But because most people in the UK don't know what freedom is, it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. Let me try to make it easy for you. Even if 100% of the people in a country said that something should be so, that doesn't make it right. Like most of the sheeple in our near-police-state of a country, you completely fail to distinguish between the unpopular and the untenable. If I don't like something, that's no reason to ban it. If I and a thousand other people don't like something, that's still no reason to ban it. And even if all 50 million of us don't like something, even that's not a vaild reason to ban it. In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
???????
Where in the US do you live?
We've been dealing with stupid laws passed by politicians or voters for yrs. Ever hear of Prohibition? Currently the voters in California have passed a law legalizing medicinal marijuana pitching it as the sole relief for glaucome, aids & one other disease. Problem is, California hasn't ceceeded from the United States where medicial marijuana isn't legal. The outcome is ignorant people are paying $100-$500 for what they think is a prescription from doctors who don't even bother to examine them giving these people the idea they have a blank check to smoke pot, only if they read the paper, they'd see the paper says IF the doctor COULD prescribe marijuana, they would, but they can't, not is the dr to be expected to sell said marijuana to them.
I don't see the high "no answer" response. I'm assuming that's people who were asked if they wanted to respond & said no, but why wouldn't they simply look for 3000 willing to respond? It's like those guys standing outside the stores trying to get one's signatures on ballot measures--they don't count those who refuse to sign.
It doesn't even take a majority of the public considering voter apathy often leads less then 50% of the voting public to cast their vote.
But it it up to the people in Japan to decide whether or not to limit materials in their country & it's not up to others to say it means they're wrong. I'm all for gays having the same rights to marry that the rest of us have, but look where we're at--most of the US disagrees with me.
Thank you, Mohawk--I've been saying that for awhile. One of the biggest changes the internet has brought is it's brought stuff that used to be hidden in dark alleys or seedy shops into the comfort of one's home so there's no sense of a need to hide such desires. |
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babbo
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:28 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | Amasa wrote: |
I'm not sure I agree with you. I'm living in Japan currently and nearly every Seven11 I walk into has what I would call niche anime porn magazines, for example I saw one with a cute loli on the cover with a bleeding clitoris, it was plastic sealed. I'm friends with a group of highschool girls here who are the biggest lolicon fans - and are fairly normal people otherwise, and when I told them that it makes me feel sick they asked me why.
Maybe what you're saying only refers to the older generation. Keep in mind that Japan has a pretty high population of sexually deprived, creepy otaku men. It's been over a decade since the Miyazaki Tsutomu case and I don't see any cultural aversion to anime or otaku. |
Almost every 7-11 I walk into in Sunny San Diego (that haven't burned down) as well as the the Circle K's, liquor stores, & similar shops all have a large spread of porn such as Playboy for sale. Why should they be any dif in Japan? Doesn't mean if you walk into a mom/pop shop you'll see similar porn. |
Nope but the local barbershop will 
I think his point was more along the lines that it's not looked at in the same light as we see it. I find it strange that you brushed over the instance of the two high school girls that were lolicon fans to pick at the fact that he example of a store was a franchise >.>
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Despite my loathing for most things American, right now I wish you were an American because then at least you'd have some residual concept of freedom. But because most people in the UK don't know what freedom is, it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. Let me try to make it easy for you. Even if 100% of the people in a country said that something should be so, that doesn't make it right. Like most of the sheeple in our near-police-state of a country, you completely fail to distinguish between the unpopular and the untenable. If I don't like something, that's no reason to ban it. If I and a thousand other people don't like something, that's still no reason to ban it. And even if all 50 million of us don't like something, even that's not a vaild reason to ban it. In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
???????
Where in the US do you live?
We've been dealing with stupid laws passed by politicians or voters for yrs. Ever hear of Prohibition? Currently the voters in California have passed a law legalizing medicinal marijuana pitching it as the sole relief for glaucome, aids & one other disease. Problem is, California hasn't ceceeded from the United States where medicial marijuana isn't legal. The outcome is ignorant people are paying $100-$500 for what they think is a prescription from doctors who don't even bother to examine them giving these people the idea they have a blank check to smoke pot, only if they read the paper, they'd see the paper says IF the doctor COULD prescribe marijuana, they would, but they can't, not is the dr to be expected to sell said marijuana to them.
I don't see the high "no answer" response. I'm assuming that's people who were asked if they wanted to respond & said no, but why wouldn't they simply look for 3000 willing to respond? It's like those guys standing outside the stores trying to get one's signatures on ballot measures--they don't count those who refuse to sign.
It doesn't even take a majority of the public considering voter apathy often leads less then 50% of the voting public to cast their vote.
But it it up to the people in Japan to decide whether or not to limit materials in their country & it's not up to others to say it means they're wrong. I'm all for gays having the same rights to marry that the rest of us have, but look where we're at--most of the US disagrees with me.
Thank you, Mohawk--I've been saying that for awhile. One of the biggest changes the internet has brought is it's brought stuff that used to be hidden in dark alleys or seedy shops into the comfort of one's home so there's no sense of a need to hide such desires. |
Oh man I can't stop lauging it him
Prohibition is an excellent example (it was a nation wide movement spread across the social classes truly an example of mob rule ), regulation of cannibis in california not so much. That's got more to do with the long history of state regulation within their own borders, something which in many cases (I don't know about cannibis but i wouldn't doubt it) is supported by the constitution. Heck, in Alaska you're allowed to grow enough for personal use <.< |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:42 pm |
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Yeah, but it also means we're seeing people busted by the feds for marijuana possession. The courts are trying to find the case they can break that law with, the one that will go to the Supreme Court on, but so far they have been skirting the issue.
As for the Lolis, I said I know a teen who likes shouta bragging she's ok for a little while until she turns 18, but I say she's playing with the same fire as loli fans. Why feed a taste one can never legally satisfy? I think that's the issue a lot of us parents have with the issue--it's playing with fire. What if the fire wins? And if it does, none of us want it to happen with a child we care about so yeah, it's terrifying to us, just as it's terrifying to most parents who love their children all around the world. |
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babbo
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:13 am |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | Yeah, but it also means we're seeing people busted by the feds for marijuana possession. The courts are trying to find the case they can break that law with, the one that will go to the Supreme Court on, but so far they have been skirting the issue. |
Regardless it's a bad example to use in discussion of mob rule. To be honest I've never understood why canibis is kept illegal, if it were actually regulated you wouldn't have people dying or severely injuring themselves from taking a puff of god knows what they put in it before they sell it now a days <.< But that's equally off topic >.>
| Quote: |
As for the Lolis, I said I know a teen who likes shouta bragging she's ok for a little while until she turns 18, but I say she's playing with the same fire as loli fans. Why feed a taste one can never legally satisfy? I think that's the issue a lot of us parents have with the issue--it's playing with fire. What if the fire wins? And if it does, none of us want it to happen with a child we care about so yeah, it's terrifying to us, just as it's terrifying to most parents who love their children all around the world. |
Why do you have to bring it back here again? Again the guy was commenting on how things are different in Japan. Regardless of whether we might think it's wrong there's a different attitude/culture over there that doesn't view lolicon in the same light as we do; this means it's possible that the poll isn't entirely accurate. The idea that people would say yest to regulation just to not stand out of the crowd doesn't surprise me either. Look at the incident report on the twins who were extorting money out of people by bumping into them. It's certainly possible that a lolicon fan might go with the flow just to avoid trouble; even "no answer" might be a bit much for them. |
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Amasa
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 340
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:05 am |
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| babbo wrote: | | CCSYueh wrote: | | Amasa wrote: |
I'm not sure I agree with you. I'm living in Japan currently and nearly every Seven11 I walk into has what I would call niche anime porn magazines, for example I saw one with a cute loli on the cover with a bleeding clitoris, it was plastic sealed. I'm friends with a group of highschool girls here who are the biggest lolicon fans - and are fairly normal people otherwise, and when I told them that it makes me feel sick they asked me why.
Maybe what you're saying only refers to the older generation. Keep in mind that Japan has a pretty high population of sexually deprived, creepy otaku men. It's been over a decade since the Miyazaki Tsutomu case and I don't see any cultural aversion to anime or otaku. |
Almost every 7-11 I walk into in Sunny San Diego (that haven't burned down) as well as the the Circle K's, liquor stores, & similar shops all have a large spread of porn such as Playboy for sale. Why should they be any dif in Japan? Doesn't mean if you walk into a mom/pop shop you'll see similar porn. |
Nope but the local barbershop will
I think his point was more along the lines that it's not looked at in the same light as we see it. I find it strange that you brushed over the instance of the two high school girls that were lolicon fans to pick at the fact that he example of a store was a franchise >.> |
Yes, that's right. Plus I was talking in the context of fetish porn that only a minority would buy yet it's common enough to be on shelves in every convenience store. Playboy is very different to lolicon manga, or guro manga, or any subgenre of erotic comics.
| angel_lover wrote: | | And even if all 50 million of us don't like something, even that's not a vaild reason to ban it. In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
Wow, I agree with you but I think their logic and reasoning for "regulating" internet lolicon is that the people who find drawn children sexually attractive are very likely to find animated children sexually acttractive and therefore real children sexually attractive. I don't believe they need "evidence" or proof to make that connection.
| CCSYueh wrote: | | But it it up to the people in Japan to decide whether or not to limit materials in their country & it's not up to others to say it means they're wrong. I'm all for gays having the same rights to marry that the rest of us have, but look where we're at--most of the US disagrees with me. |
You can't make that comparison. The majority of people opposed to gay marital rights are influenced by their religion and back up their opinions from the Bible. In Japan religion does not play the role of cultural morality judge.
| Quote: | | Why feed a taste one can never legally satisfy? I think that's the issue a lot of us parents have with the issue--it's playing with fire. What if the fire wins? And if it does, none of us want it to happen with a child we care about so yeah, it's terrifying to us, just as it's terrifying to most parents who love their children all around the world. |
That's a valid point but completely outlawing all forms of lolicon porn will be more harmful since the people who enjoy it will have no outlet to enjoy their desires. It will force them to physically seek out what they need. Of course only a tiny minority would ever do that because lolicon fans are not insane, sadistic, freaks, but "feeding a taste one can never satisfy" is better than not feeding the taste only to add to the fire of desire until it explodes.
.....Okay, the anology got a little out of hand, sorry for that!  But I think I expressed my point. |
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Steroid
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 324
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:46 am |
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| Moomintroll wrote: | | Steroid wrote: | | Hm, so accepting these numbers, it means that 87% of people in Japan are WRONG. And that they have no idea of how government is supposed to work. |
Yes, you're a libertarian. We get it. But what on Earth makes you think that the Japanese people and their government should be running their country according to your political beliefs?
Hell, your own country isn't run according to your political beliefs... |
Because politics isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of right and wrong. Arresting, fining, or jailing someone for drawings is wrong, no matter how many people say otherwise. |
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babbo
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:23 am |
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| Steroid wrote: | | Moomintroll wrote: | | Steroid wrote: | | Hm, so accepting these numbers, it means that 87% of people in Japan are WRONG. And that they have no idea of how government is supposed to work. |
Yes, you're a libertarian. We get it. But what on Earth makes you think that the Japanese people and their government should be running their country according to your political beliefs?
Hell, your own country isn't run according to your political beliefs... |
Because politics isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of right and wrong. Arresting, fining, or jailing someone for drawings is wrong, no matter how many people say otherwise. |
To a degree I can agree to the second half of that but the first half of what you said is complete BS >.>
If politics were a matter of right or wrong we wouldn't have:... the list is endless and obvious so why bother? |
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Talon87
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:32 am |
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| Steroid wrote: | | Because politics isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of right and wrong. |
But right and wrong are themselves subject to personal beliefs. I believe something is right or I believe something is wrong, based on such factors as instruction, past experiences, and speculation. Perhaps you subscribe to a notion of "absolute rightness" and "absolute wrongness" ; but if not, then what you say makes no sense at all.
Laws are made not because men know they're right but because they believe they are right. If it was as you claim, then no law would ever be made incorrectly; all laws would always be right and would never need to be repealed or refined by future generations whose beliefs have long since changed from those of their forebears. |
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Enerccio
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:27 pm |
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| ultrapostman wrote: | | What makes you so sure that fictional material won't make someone a pedophile? Mentally imbalanced people could very easily use that sort of material as a catalyst for real life child rape. Also, and I think this is very important, the unregulated nature of lolicon hentai allows it to be seen (over the Internet if not in an actual manga) by minors whose brains are still not fully developed. |
Eh whut? You are some kind of sexologist or what? Pardon me, but if you are not THE SHUT THE F U C K UP. I read about this from real sexologist (though in Czech language so I cannot give you the page.... well I can, but it will be useless to you), so sexual deprivation is genetic disease of some kind (not exactly disease, but it is part of your genome personality), it is not something you will "learn" or "acquire". You were born as pedophile, you will live as pedophile and you will die as pedophile. Thats all folks. No manga can create pedophile from you.
On second note, I (and that doctor) strongly support lolicon manga/3D art/whatever. Since, this is mostly the best cure for real pedophiles. What is better, if pedophile download manga and fap to it or when he will go out and rape a child? It this really so hard question? Of course first.
I also like loli art, since it is cute, but I know that I am not a pedophile, since I am totally not attracted to real small girls....  |
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Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3862
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:32 pm |
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| angel_lover wrote: | | Mohawk52 wrote: | | Are you seriously implying that all those people, who said there should be regulations controlling child porn manga and anime, are "uninformed"? |
Yes.
Despite my loathing for most things American, right now I wish you were an American because then at least you'd have some residual concept of freedom. But because most people in the UK don't know what freedom is, it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. Let me try to make it easy for you. Even if 100% of the people in a country said that something should be so, that doesn't make it right. Like most of the sheeple in our near-police-state of a country, you completely fail to distinguish between the unpopular and the untenable. If I don't like something, that's no reason to ban it. If I and a thousand other people don't like something, that's still no reason to ban it. And even if all 50 million of us don't like something, even that's not a vaild reason to ban it. In order to make something illegal, there ought to be, at the very least, clear irrefutable evidence to show that it's harmful. In the case of "child porn manga and anime", there is no such evidence. |
Many would call your description of "freedom" anarchy. I don't know who you are, or where in Britain you live, but where I live it's far from being a police state. Indeed there aren't enough police around to keep the anti-socialist, and anarchists at bay. A point I have personally made several times to our Hampshire Constabulary, to which they keep telling me I have to pay more Council tax then. Physical harm aside, you don't take into consideration why a majority of people wouldn't like something like child porn manga, or anime available in shops. Also have you ever lived in America, not just visit on holiday, but spent some time of your life living and working there? If so you wouldn't feel it's such the utopia of liberties you make it out to be when it comes to all things sexually preverted, especially when that involves anything related to child porn. So what's stopping you from immigrating there then? |
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Xanas
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:35 pm |
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| You know, I don't know the truth or not of the genetic bit. But if it is true, then maybe we should use this stuff as a way to attract them all onto an nice island where they can live out their days away from the rest of society, and not continue breeding this problem into the gene pool. It should be a good place to live, so that they would not mind living their lives there (I'm only slightly kidding, if there was a way to do it I'd be all for it). |
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