Forum - View topicNEWS: Iris Cancels North American Boys-Love Mag's Launch
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
sunflower
 Posts: 1080 |
|
|||||||
Can you please cite your source for this? I moderate a community of 4000 adult members, fans of just one BL mangaka. Before I took over it accepted members of all ages. The average age of members at that time was 21, college-aged, which does not support your assertion at all. There were of course underaged members, hence the change, but the large majority were 18 and over (and we have members up into their 60s). What is most likely about the demise of this magazine is that they've found it's just too much for a small publisher to handle. DQ appears to be having similar problems with their OEM anthology, and not because of any pressures from any outside groups. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||
Loli & Shouta are both borderline. Because I prefer not to support sexualization of 8 yr olds, I'm bad? I've said you all say "It's just art!" but to me it's playing with fire. Better safe than sorry. As for Hentai, I've always supported the right of adults to view whatever is legal (consenting adults). I also support the right of yuri fans to get as much yuri as they can. I applaud the licensing of yuri titles to maybe shut up some of the anti-yaoi whining. I do notice the yuri crowd seems more particular/complain more over licensed titles which may translate to poorer sales as they choose to stick with their scans rather than support the genre. Most every yaoi group I've seen stresses supporting these publishers-buy even if you've downloaded scans so they can license more. Don't forget those teenagers that drooled over Gravitation 3 yrs ago just might be legal age today. All these teenagers you're all imagining make up the yaoi fanbase are all aging every day. That 16 yr old who was old enough to read Fake when Tokyopop released it would be old enough to buy all the yaoi she wants now. And are you really all that good at telling someone's age just by looking at them? I've seen polls of how good bartenders are at guessing ages & they're still very much in the realm of chance. If you saw my 17 yr old, would you know she was 17? She doesn't look that different from last week when she was still 16. (she's excited she can pick up her M-rated games without me being there)What is the dif between a 17 yr old seeing porn (yaoi or playboy) & an 18 yr old besides the legalities of it? Does a year make that big a dif in their mental ability to process sex? Moogle-- I usually buy my stuff thru the mail & it always comes in boxes. The mailman has no idea what's in there unless he opens it. (He probably thinks I'm really into space stuf considering the amount of boxes from Right Stuf I get. He does complain about the number of boxes I get) The magazines would be a different deal-they usually come in clear plastic so yeah, this cancelled zine might have raised eyebrows, but they may have opted for an opaque covering. And please cite your sources for the insistance teens are the biggest audience for yaoi? Did you ever consider most of us adult fans prefer buying over the internet because we have credit cards, so you don't see us. You probably see the manga cows reading what they can't buy in the stores. Do you really notice what everyone's buying? If I walk into Borders to pick up manga, I know what I want. I don't have to browse the title, so I go in, grab it, & check out. Why would an adult bother taking the shrink-wrap off until s/he were outside the store? |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
|||||||
Please, please tell me you're joking with this. This is such a tired cliche that every melodramatic fan on the internet busts out whenever they want to make it look like someone saying something bad about their Harry Potter underage rape fanfiction is akin to genocide. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
angel_lover
 Posts: 645 Location: UK |
|
|||||||
It's interesting to note this comment from someone who uses the universe's worst genocidal maniac as his avatar... Seriously though, if you had [irony] tags here I would have needed a good long think about whether to user them or not. I wasn't entirely joking - Niemöller's point is that the Nazi genocides were made possible by a climate of fear that stifled free speech. Once you have that climate in place, you can quite literally get away with anything. Of course I can see good business sense in the decision to cancel the magazine launch. And I'm not ashamed to admit that I was wrong about the Kodomo no Jikan manga either - now that I've read the later volumes I can see that it really does go way beyond anything that could be acceptable for a US audience. My concern is that since the Kodomo no Jikan debacle, I kind of feel afraid around here now. It's not you or any of the staff, it's the Sturmabteilungen who come round after you who scare me. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
|
|||||||
You don't think that's a little silly given that it's just opinions on a message board that affect literally nothing at all? |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Richard J.
 Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
|
|||||||
Personally speaking, I've seen other forums where just saying you didn't like a particular series would be followed by a wave comments questioning the poster's maturity, intellect, and sanity. I lurked on a board for awhile where expressing anything other than absolute hatred for lolicon material and a desire to brutally murder those who enjoy it was tantamount to forum suicide. All angel_lover was getting at is there are people on this site who make any debate turn into a vicious cycle of insults and veiled threats, making people who have an opinion that's perhaps less than popular very hesitant to post. Or at least that's what I got from the posts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||
|
I believe Mowhawk & I have both commented on this issue-the entitlement the internet seems to breed in people.
There have always been pedophiles. There have always been rapists. There have always been brutal murderers. There have always been those who like that stuff, but manage to keep it in check (catharsis?). And there's the people who can see it & think good or bad about it---they may love slasher flicks, but it's just they love slasher flicks. Time was when one liked beyond the society norm, one kept it a deep, dark secret. Did I think badly of Paul Reubens after that adult theater thing? No. He's an adult. However, it did a number on his career because it's probably something he should have kept at home. Do I think badly of the lolicon supporters here? Frankly, I am lumping them into the "they may love slasher flicks, but it's just they love slasher flicks" & really view them as harmless, although I do consider their interest (sexualization of pre-teens) a match waiting to ignite something dangerous. Is there grey? Sure, considering a lot of these shonen heroes may be underage, but they are runnning around acting like adults, fighting adults, trying to rule/save the world like adults. I still say the YuGiOh dub had an eye to gay lines. It's incredibly slashable, though they are teens. One of my teen's usernames from way back was Bakura Loves Marik. However, technically all those fanfics & fanart are child porn if they are explicit. However, the point of loli & shouta is to show something not even borderline adult in a sexual manner which is the issue the rest of us have with it. But again, this entitlement-"Support my lolicon!" 20 yrs ago people wouldn't talk about this-maybe even 10 yrs ago. This would be something they had to seek out in dark alleys & backrooms of adult bookstores (which we have tons of here in San Diego. I have no problem with them. I don't even care about the booths they at one time at least had for one's personal viewing pleasure.) "Hi, I'm Sherrie, your babysitter for the night, I like Shouta" isn't a line any adult would want to hear from their childcare provider. "No, I don't care if Jim like lolicon. Let him watch my 5 yr old alone all day." It's something you keep secret. You don't share a cup of coffee with your neighbor & show that person your loli collection. For your own protection, I would think it's be somethjing to be very, very quiet about. Child goes missing-"You should see the stuff Tom has in his house! THe police should check him out" Would I care if I heard "Hi, I'm Terry. I'm gay. I'll be your childcare provider for the week"? No. I don't believe there's any threat there. Would we hear that? Probably not because gays are still a bottom-rung minority-still lacking many of the same things the rest of us take for granted like marriage. Most people would not deny blacks or Asians or hispanics a marriage license. My mother-in-law saw a white woman with a black man & whispered to me "she can do better than that" after the couple were well out of sight (To which I replied, "Maybe that is better than any white guy she had") Even most racists know to keep it to themselves with those minorities. There's a rumor at my teen's school that a teacher was outed by his MySpace page & removed from the overseas trip last year. Stupid if true, but it happens. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
sunflower
Posts: 1080 |
|
|||||||
I'm not really sure where you were going with that post, but I do have to disagree with the above sentence. No one anywhere has ever declared prose (e.g. fanfics) of any sort to be child pornography. Child porn, by law, is always a pictorial representation. Edit: I need to say that I'm speaking in reference to the US, since elsewhere in the world I'm sure this isn't true. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
angel_lover
Posts: 645 Location: UK |
|
|||||||
Kneejerk reaction, much. If this were a gardening website or a chess website or whatever, I wouldn't mention the 'p' word at all. However, given that the general topic is anime and manga, it is occasionally relevant.
You're illustrating my point beautifully by openly implying that I'm on the level of a rapist or a brutal murderer. By thinking you can go around making accusations like this with impunity, surely you're the one with the entitlement complex.
Technically correct, but currently there is someone who stands accused of Federal obscenity charges over her text-only website that contained fictional stories about children. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
|
|||||||
|
Richard J wrote:
Richard, you've got a bit of a 'in general' point about polarization/hostility (which is endemic of most any message-board environment-as by nature features anonymous posters and ego's that don't always match ability), but I think more or less theres a big difference between a generally hostile environment and one where people get excised about specific sexually/socially taboo material. It's plain common sense that most people are going to feel strongly about material such as 'lolicon', and a little silly for some to expect their support of deviant material to be met with a blase, libertine attitude. Or in other words it's way over-the-top to invoke the specter of fascism (which others, not you, did)) because people in a general interest forum are hostile to taboo sexual material most of the civilized world is hostile to. If someone is being piled upon because they enjoy an unpopular show, then you've got a point; but if there getting blow-back because they enjoy seeing children used as a sexual rag-doll, welcome to reality. I'm sure the internet has lots of tiny, dark corners where one can talk about one's niche proclivities with fellow travelers, a general-interest anime board usually isn't one of them. Last edited by Goodpenguin on Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||||||
|
I believe, when I re-read what I wrote, I was pointing to a possible financial issue with the cancelation. I understand not every yoai title involves adult men and underaged boys. So how come this thread has degenerated into a loli-com debate? Now if that really is the title of this magazine, I can see yet another hole in its side. Just how many of those so called adults into BL are going to plop a copy of that on the counter and look the shop keeper in the eye when he, or she asks, "will that be all?" under the strange look being given. That would have to be one hell of a brave and liberal news agent to put it up on their shelves in the first place too, especially in the US, so I can't see them selling enough copies to make their investment back with a profit from. What they get away with in Japan will never happen in the far-right-wing-Christian run US of today.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
|
|||||||
|
Mohawk52 wrote:
I'm surprised that any of us American posters have any time to post at all, what with all our daily witch-burnings and mass prayer. Seriously, half the time Americans are depicted as religious nuts, and the other half amoral sleaze merchants. I wish the rest of the world would just pick a stereotype and stick with it. Race, religion, and politics- three good things to stay away from unless specifically, academically related to board/subject (re:anime) interest. Injecting potshots based off any will largely yield something that makes fansub/lolicon go-rounds look like high-tea. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
angel_lover
Posts: 645 Location: UK |
|
|||||||
You do realise, don't you, that much of the anime/manga openly on sale now would have been classed as "deviant material" not so long ago?
Like I said in a previous post, this is an anime/manga forum. Yaoi, yuri, lolicon/shoutacon, hentai, guro, etc. are for better or for worse, significant sub-genres. It's no use pretending that they don't exist and then ganging up on people when they inconventiently remind you.
So basically, what you're saying is that if you think someone is a pervert then forum rules don't apply and it's open season. Next time I say something you don't like, try arguing against it instead of flinging accusations about enjoying seeing children being abused. And after all you've said, you wonder why I start "invoking specters"?
I guess that would be my fault, for declaring solidarity with the yaoi fans. Anyway, it's late here so I shall derail no more. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||
Talk about not reading everything.
Note the declining severity. I went from the extreme to the middle to the take-it-or-leave-it crowd, did I not? Did I not say
How did this turn into a loli debate? Because loli fans seem to have a huge persecution complex & like to parade themselves as huge victims. Really & truely, Loli is a long way off from being acceptable to the mainstream, but if you keep it over there, out of people's way, you'll probably get a lot more than if you jump around waving it in people's faces. Do I like yaoi? Yes. Do I get bent out of shape when someone like Kitty ups the ages of characters from High School to college? No, I prefer they would because I don't want any groups trying to use it to get the stuff banned. I was horrified when one came out a few months ago & left the boy very much in the under-18 group when it easily could have been upped about 2-3 yrs with no difficulty. Do I notice when they screw up? Yes. (in one part of Level C, the uke is referred to as being in High School & not college) I hope it sneaks by as a mistake. Legally are fanfics child porn? I don't really care since I don't read them, but they do fan the fires, don't they? SetoXMokuba? One can argue Bakura's soul's been around for centuries, but that body hasn't & belongs to a minor. I've seen a fair share of fanart of Bakura wrapped around Marik who, so far as I know(never paid attention) is a minor. Yes, they're both technically minors so they're ok together, but the whole legality of possessing pictures depicting it gets messy, doesn't it? If one needs to take a course in law to know if it's legal to possess this or that, is it worth the effort? Isn't it a whole lot easier to go with what is ok? If a PTA mom comes across a fanfic of YugiXSeto, is she going to be ok because it's prose & not art? Because we all know moms don't read stuff like their kid's diaries, right? Mohawk- Maybe that's why Boys Love isn't catching on in the West-because we're more literal with the English words. Yeah, I never really thought about it. Maybe they shifted away from shonen ai to the foreign "boys' love" to get away from the same connotation, I have no idea. I've always equated Boys Love with Boy Bands, the Beatles being called boys or lads when they weren't, etc instead of BL meaning what the west would deem boys (under 12, really. Don't we call teens teens outside gender issues like Boys Room/Girls Room for the Restroom?) |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||||||
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group