Forum - View topicNEWS: Japanese request Fansub Removal
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I don't get it.
Clearly fansubs have become completely out of control and are harming the American anime industry in more ways than one, and we're still talking like somehow this hasn't happened yet. Fansubs have long outlived their purpose. Now, it's theft, plain and simple. 90 percent of what you see fansubbed now is already owned by an American licensee. It's the same if they showed, say, the new Harry Potter movie in Japan 6 months ahead of America, and someone subtitled it and spread it all over the web because "it might not come out over here". Of course, they know that's a lie made up to justify their theft (although self-delusion is a powerful thing). Fansubs are, more than ever, a product of impatience and self-righteousness. Anime fans are spoiled rotten and like getting things for free and complaining when they're catered to. Sometimes it takes a little longer for a show to come out over here, but you know, eventually, it's going to come out. There are two reasons people still watch fansubs: 1. They're impatient. 2. They don't like to pay for things. That's it. There are no other reasons. Take a look at the anime shelf at your local Best Buy or Suncoast and tell me that we aren't getting things fast enough. People come up with all sorts of crazy justifications and convenient alternate definitions for stealing, but at the end of the day, it's theft. I'd have much less a problem with fansubbing if these kids would just admit that they're no better than the zillions of movie pirates out there on the web. It's the self-righteous ridiculous justifications for it that bug me. "It'll never come out over here!" has been proven wrong so many times in a row now. Nearly everything obscure has been licensed at this point (yes, even some of the shows mentioned in this thread as having not been licensed.. they just haven't been announced yet). "We're helping promote the show!" Right, just like the guy in the Aragorn costume is "helping to promote" The Return of the King. I think the hundreds of thousands of marketing dollars these companies throw at these series is pretty much all the promotion they need. There is a degree of word-of-mouth viral advertising going on with fansubs, but at this point, that word-of-mouth means that everyone who knows about the show has also already stolen it from you, so I'm not certain you want that kind of attention as an advertiser. As for the "quality of American DVDs being low", that is total bunk. I can go to my shelf right now and grab any number of awesome anime DVD releases and prove you wrong. Extras be damned (they're "extras" and frankly not necessary for an anime release), the video quality is fine and dubs continue to get better and better. The prices are coming down. These are all indisputable facts, and yet the fansubbers continue to "debate" them like somehow they're still open to interpretation. To me, this is black and white. Fansubs = Piracy. I wish they'd just admit it. |
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Dejiko
 Posts: 276 Location: Holland (between Great Britain and Germany) |
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Kudo's to Zac for saying out loud what many would rather not hear. I was going to post something along those lines, but now a simple 'me too' will do just fine.
In my view, the only way fansubbers can do justice to the "it's too obscure, they'll never release it"-line, is by actually get some really ancient stuff out. But that wouldn't cut it, since these titles are ulikely to get popular and thus not generate a load of buzz for the efforts of the fansubbers. So much for making obscure series available to the general public. Oh, and I realize this would still amount to theft, but it's just an example to point out the hypocrisy of it all.
Cable internet has actually just been taking off since the last few years. The level of market penetration in the USA and Japan is very, very different.
Does the word 'OVA' ring any bells? Oh, how about 'Pay On Demand' channels? Contrary to popular belief, general Japanese TV does NOT offer every series in town, let alone the best ones.
No it's not. You should do some research prior to passing off vague assumptions as facts. |
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Legato 2057
 Posts: 437 Location: Soon to be Japan |
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I'm in the too impatient crowd.
There groups out there fansubbing older shows, Live-eviL is currently fansubbing Condor Hero and Rose of Versailes. Two shows that are very inlikely too be liscensed at this point. |
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eva05
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I DL fansubs but I buy either the US licensed versions or the Japanese domestic releases when the American companies screw up the releases by cheaply mastering the discs, skimping on extras, or just dropping the ball by not including a Japanese language track on their DVDs.
There is of course the fourth and most inexcusable situation, a US company has altered or edited the animation itself such as in the case of the US release of the Evangelion TV series... I know there have been many cases where I got US versions of anime DVDs and promptly returned them because the quality was so poor on them. It makes it very hard to trust some of these companies with future releases when they have such questionable track records! I mean why should I risk $25 on a DVD that may or may not be mastered well when I can get the Japanese version, which 99% of the time is handled with incredible care, comes with extra gifts and just DL the fan sub version? j |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I'm not going to tell you that what you are doing is wrong (in regards to downloading the fansubs when the US release doesn't live up to your expectation) but I just want to make sure you understand what you're doing. Firstoff, before I even start, I want to point out that I definitely understand your choice... I just hope you haven't deceived yourself into thinking something that isn't true (a lot of people deceive themselves, it's a natural reflex to bring our morals into line with our actions). Point #1 - You have NO RIGHT to anime. It's not some "god-given" or constitution protected right, nor is it a staple of life. It's a commercial form of entertainment, a luxury item. Point #2 - If you download Anime as an alternative to buying it for whatever reason, you are breaking the law and commiting intelectual theft. It's no different than software piracy, cable theft, of photocopying a good book because you don't want to pay the price on the cover. And I'm actually not telling you that you shouldn't do this, just wondering if you understand what you're doing, because too many people seem to think that a release that doesn't live up to their standards give them the right to steal it. Theoretically, if something isn't of acceptable quality, it's perfectly reasonable not to buy it, but then you don't have it. If you go out and aquire it illegally because you aren't willing to pay the asking price... well, that's theft. But for some reason, a lot of peple think they have the right to acquire a product by some illicit means if the product isn't good enough to pay for. Right? Obviously none-of this applies to when you buy the R2. There's actually a theoretical arguement for saying that is worng, but IMHO it's too much of a stretch. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I agree with Tempest that you don't have a "right" to watch any anime (hey, I have to pay for cable to watch Cartoon Network, and I have to pay for the TV to see anything), but altho I think people should support and pay for what they use, I also think that fansubs DO serve a purpose and trying to classify the fansub issue as merely: sales of DVDs with vs. without fansubs is somewhat disingenuous because it neglects other impacts the fansubs have.
OK, let's start with the assumption that the fansub/piracy "problem" is basically related to anime fandom specifically. (I say this just to make a starting assumption) I think we can all agree that Joe SixPack who ain't gonna see Anime Z on TV ain't gonna buy Anime Z OR download it either, to him, Anime Z doesn't exist. It's only to the "fans" that know about Anime Z that will either seek out the fansub and/or buy the commercial release, fair assumption? Assuming yes, let's look at how this affects the industry just with open ended guesses, these are not fully supported so feel free to modify the numbers if you think they're grossly out of wack. Let's say there's 100 anime fans, and (hot new show) comes out. Assuming there is no fansub whatsoever, let's assume 10% of the fans will buy the release either because they've heard good things or because they're THAT interested. Let's further say it's a standard 26 episode series and on average they'll buy all (let's just say 6) DVDs at $30 a pop. =10 Fans * 6 DVDs * $30 = $1800.00 (approx) Now, since the other 90% haven't seen the show, let's say 70% (aim high) of the 10 people like the show enough to buy an average of $30 of goods. =7 Fans * $30 (of STUFF) = $210.00 (approx) Total=$2010.00 (approx) ----- Now, let's take those same 100 fans and lets pretend there's a fansub, and just for fun, let's say 50% of the fans get the fansub. (sound about right?) Now of that 50% (50 people) let's say 10% WILL buy the commercial release, because they're so hardcore, or because they feel obligated, whatever. =5 Fans * 6 DVDs * $30 = $900.00 (approx) Let's say 70% (round down, 3) of those five buy $30 of goods. =3 Fans * $30 = $90.00 (approx) Now, let's say that 50% of the 50 DON'T buy the series, BUT they like the series enough to buy an average of $30 worth of goods (easily done between $30 CDs, $30 Artbooks, and $10+ trinkets) =25 Fans * $30 (of STUFF) = $750.00 (approx) Let's say it also gives 1 extra person the interest to buy, oh, a 7 book run of the manga. =1 Fan * ~7 books * $10 (per book) = $70.00 (approx) Finally, whether anyone acknowledges it or not, fansubs ARE advertising, otherwise some shows would never have been noticed at all. So let's be CHEAP and pretend a fansub has the advertising "value" of a Newtype Marketplace ad (rate ~$200 last I recall). =_1_ Marketplace ad in Newtype * $200 = $200.00 Total=$2010.00 (approx) Now, assuming I'm even close (and I think I'm being fairly conservative on the fansub impact side, but you may disagree) the fansub has an obvious impact on the immediate US licenser, but it has a very minor overall NEGATIVE impact (if any) on the industry as a whole. (that second line especially, shows there is a REASON many companies are now entering the merchandising game) I think underneath it all, fansubs HELP the anime industry in way not TOO unlike how doujinshi can help the manga industry. Basically, fansubbing can (and does) do for the anime industry what Napster and the like do/did for music. It can eliminate the hype "machine", people check something out and if they like it, they buy it. Helping shows that DON'T have marketting clout but that ARE really well done, and hurting marginal or unimpressive shows that could be heavily pushed. If shows couldn't be sold profitably even after heavy airing (or even file trading) shows like Invader Zim (now licensed for DVD release) and given TV shows (like let's say Buffy) would NEVER see a DVD release. Anyone have the numbers on a show like Vampire Hunter D movie 2 or Armitage III or something that was released simultaneously, vs. something that had a US release AFTER a fansub push? I'm curious to see a comparison for "actual" impact assessment. On a semi-unrelated note, there's a REASON that companies like Viz and ADV "retitle" various seasons of LONG running shows (like Ranma or Sorceror Hunters), it's because retailers don't want to buy continuous copies of shows someone might try and never purchase beyond the first or just get sick of them eventually, fansubs can help pinpoint the market for a given title. But maybe I'm just bitter about buying a 2 LD boxset for an anime movie that at BEST was pretty to look at but marginal otherwise simply because I was interested in the manga and hadn't actually SEEN the movie when I bought it. 
(also, for people who are naysaying the people who will buy a series after they already "have" it, explain that reasoning to someone I know then go talk to NewLine so they'll stop this stupid "Here's the DVD, now here's the EXTENDED DVD for LotR movies") -_- |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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My views on fansubs pretty much coincide with HeeroTX's.
I agree however that the fansubbers are getting out of hand. I was really pissed at Anime Junkies for the disrespect they showed, especially since it has seemed that anime companies have been turning a blind eye to fansubs for the reason HeeroTx stated. I'm using that fact that companies such as Viz and Central Park Media actual find the fansubbers/scanlators that are working on new liscenses and ask them to only stop production of their title, and not shut down the whole stinking group with legal action. I can't help but feel that what AJ did is going to result in a more firm handling of fansubbers by the industry. |
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eva05
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OK, ok...let me start by saying back when I got into anime (around 1976-1977), the ONLY way to get anime in the NYC area was dubbed VHS at the local Japanese video store (Tokyo Video and ABC Video for those who remember). LD was still a distant dream at that point and even Books Nippon wasn't importing tapes. Fast forward to today...I have been to Japan over 50-60 times in my life. I have seen tons of anime while there...other than OVAs and theatrical presentations I have never paid to see 1 episode of anything. Now you can say that the advertising dollars that backed those shows were my payment...but who doesn't surf channels while watching TV to avoid commercials? Is everyone who excercises a little free will a intellectual criminal?!! By this logic, if a friend of mine taped me an episode of Gasraki, for example, while it was running and mailed it to me after editing the commercials he and I stole it? What do you want to bet than 99% of the people creating anime have engaged in some sort of tape trading at one point or another in their careers (and most likely continue to do so).
I understand exactly what I'm doing. I'm watching tv. It's not a right, agreed, but that's basically all these people are doing. Fan culture has always been based around tape trading, which has evolved into movie file trading. Same as scanning a pencil board and putting it on my desktop and not sending out a check to corporation X for unauthorized use of their artwork as a desktop pattern. To feel otherwise...well that sounds like someone who never was really into this stuff until recently becuase, as I've said, back in the day there was no other way to get it. And these days there is still tons and tons of series that will never see the light of day "officially" in the US that are quite good. People should not be looked down upon as thieves or penalized for enjoying art. And if I aquire something "illegally"...what if that series hasn't been licensed and/or won't be licensed? I don't see anyone racing out to license Dougram: Fang of the Sun or Captain Harlock SSX. Hell I have my preorder in for that Harlock DVD player box set  ....100000000 to 1 odds that never sees the light of day on shores outside of Japan 
But I'd dL the whole series in a second if I could find a version with decent subs.
But that's the party line. I've heard it on pannels from people in the industry (at BAAF this year). "People who buy R2 instad of R1 are killing the industry". My response, "Companies who acquire licenses and then do a $^%& job releasing them get what they deserve. The market demands better." Case in point... The Yamato DVDs released by Voyager entertainment have burned subs and appallingly poor mastering. The packaging is also beyond laughable, especially compared to my Japanese DVD sets. The Macross Plus movie looks like it was mastered from video. Has no slip case, no art book or trading cards, etc. The Evangelion series was raped by poor mastering, altered animation(I can't belive they replaced all the Japanese text with English text, didn't bother to match the fonts--a serif times would've been fine-- and then to add injury to insult, didn't even bother to shoot it on film to match the original anime). Quite frankly this crime should be punished by violent public execution...Maybe I'm getting carried away but Eva is possibly the greatest anime since Yamato IMHO and to have it desecrated as such drives me to insanity. I have boycotted all their releases/products indefinitely. (As far as I'm concerned buying DV product is killing the anime industry by showing other companies no one gives a **** what their anime looks like or the quality in which it is provided) Let's just say I was very happy to see Manga get the licenses for the movies. They do a excellent job of mastering on 99% of their stuff (too bad about Macross Plus the Movie)
So conversely, I'll also buy a series I like 2x if the company does a good job with the domestic release. Case in point: FLCL (US version was handled amazingly, bought the entire run) Kare Kano (See above) The End of Evangelion (great subs, great mastering) Cowboy Bebop (see above, etc) MS Gundam movies trilogy Gundam Char's Counterattack 0083 Stardust Memory Perfect Blue Millenium Actress etc etc Ultimatley the producers of US anime have themselves to blame if people turn away from their product. If they produce a better product people will buy it. It's not just a DVD, it's art. If more companies treated it that way I think they'd be hurting less in the pocket. j |
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Foix
Posts: 8 |
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3. Many worthwhile shows will never have a domestic release and are only available in fansub form. While you're correct in stating that the majority of fansubs of anime from the current Japanese television season are of series that will most likely be licensed, a significant minority of those will not be: the only two current season anime I'm watching are PlanetES (which might conceivably be licensed) and Twin Spica (which probably won't be). I can think of any number of fansubbed and digisubbed series that I've watched and enjoyed but which will never likely see a domestic license: anime based on the manga of Adachi Mitsuru (Touch, H2, Miyuki); Princess Tutu (though a license is possible); Mizuiro Jidai; Aim for the Ace; Cosmic Baton Girl Comet-san; and all of the series that I mentioned in my previous message: Yawara, Rose of Versailles, Legend of Galactic Heroes (license possible), Oniisama e, Kodomo no Omocha, and many others. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many other fans, some of the greatest anime out there is also unfortunately some of the least commercially viable in the United States. Fans of shoujo and 'straight' drama (i.e. series devoid of supernatural, fantasy or science fiction elements) are particularly reliant on the fansub community. Just because your own anime interests might not go in this direction is no reason to suggest that fansubs are unnecessary for anyone other than the cheap and/or impatient. |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Ok, things being said, I'm going to bring up another point: Fansubs at anime conventions.
In the last couple years of my con-going experience, conventions have started using digi-subs *when Love Hina first came out in Japan, as well as X-tv, MaLoki, ect, diggi-subbers where there*. I asked the people at AFO recently, and they said pretty much all of their showings were digital fansubs. They're more convenient, and everyone loves seeing the latest stuff. What they're doing is illegal, but it's a convention tradition. People who say they have never downloaded a fansub, but have gone to a convention have most likely seen several fansubs. There are a few times that official titles are premiered at conventions *Funimation premiered Blue Gender at one of mine, the same goes with things such as the Escaflowne movie.* They do this with American Industry and Japanese Industry guest in their presence, and either side hasn't cracked down on anything. So with all these subs being illegal, and hurting both industries, do you think they should be removed from conventions, where they interest hundreds of new fans in a series per con? Personally, I think that the industry doesn't give a damn about fansubbers, because they know in cases like these they create a fanbase for a title, and they can also see how the American people react to titles before they buy. I think someone also mentioned earlier that the industry may be using something such as bittorrent stats to determine what's the new popular title, and use that as a possible contribution in their decision to buy a title. Yes, it’s illegal, but would the American industry be able to survive without fansubbers being the sort of “tv” to cater to the fans? Sure there will always be the die hard people with lots of money to blow who will buy a title they’ve never seen, but I don’t think most anime fans have that much money to blow. If they depend on these people and continue to buy the number of titles they do buy a year, I think they’re not going to be doing so well. I really don’t see how we can be getting lately the majority of anime shown in Japan, and sell them well here when the “majority” of their costumers haven’t seen the titles before, where as the Japanese see them all the time on tv, and read the manga. Fanbase there, no fanbase here, and they still do pretty well? Also, if fansubbers HAVE been hurting the American Anime industry, then how the heck have Genon/Pioneer, and ADV became so freaking huge in the last 5 years, when that’s been the time that fansubbers have practically grown over 150% since being VHS distro? *I just threw in that number, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number was bigger* ... Sorry for ranting. I sort of got off the convention topic I was trying to start. ;
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Iron Chef
 Posts: 487 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I'm actually kind of curious if anyone here knows or knows someone who could give a quick synopsis of broadcast law. About the only time I ever hear about "not retransmitting or rebroadcasting without the express written consent of..." is during sports. Is there an implicit law that says you can't record a show off the TV? I remember hearing once that as long as you didn't profit from the viewing/showing, it was okay to do so. Since cons charge admission (I'm assuming, having never been to one), they would be breaking the law.
I think that if the shows are available via television, it should be okay to "record" them by watching d/led fansubs. Then again, I don't know broadcast law or how the rules apply in international venues like this. Contrary to what Zac says, I do think there's a grey area here, even if it's only legally speaking. Of course, now that I think about it, we're *not* paying for Japanese cable, so I guess that kind of screws things up. The lesson, as always, I have no point. |
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Japanese have very specific laws about the reshowing of anything, so even showing/obtaining raw episodes falls under the illegal category. And since the Berne convention exists, even if the laws otherwise weren't in place, the work is automatically protected which means altering it in ANY WAY, including adding a subtitle to it is illegal because the creator has not given their consent to do so. That's why companies must purchase a license to release it in the U.S.
simple as that. |
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Iron Chef
Posts: 487 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Would that mean that raws would be okay to download? Of course, then we're getting into cable theft, probably.
Aw, screw it. It's illegal no matter how you look at it. I just *hate* being on the short end of the stick. 
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king_micah
 Posts: 994 Location: OSU |
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Ah, but a Con is different. The Con showings are only a couple of episodes, as compared to the whole thing. They are showed to a large group, and can create a buzz and desire to buy the series in order to know what happens. It isn't the same as dling all the fansubs and watching it and buying only if it is "pure".
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Dejiko
Posts: 276 Location: Holland (between Great Britain and Germany) |
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Trading tapes was just fine and dandy, because a 7th or 8th generation copy was as far as it could go. Nowadays, with digital files, this built in security is gone: an unlimited amount of copies of the same quality can be made easily. And besides that, old tape fansub distros could decide not to send tapes to areas where a show had been domestically licensed. This too cannot be controlled anymore, because the internet is a global network and no-one can make sure which material will end up where. You were right to say that tape trading has been a cornerstone of fandom until recently, but times change and we musn't be afraid to face the fact that digital fansubs are rapidly becoming a threat to the industry. |
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