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calawain
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 192
Location: New York, NY
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:38 pm |
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Not to stop the uh, really long essays in this thread about fansubbing. It's on good sources that this whole mess was a mistake by BayTSP. It looks like BayTSP forgot to turn their filters on to only pull Singapore IP addresses from the trackers. At least, this is according to alleged Odex employees who shall remain nameless.
Now, continue on with the really long posts.
Btw Zac, as much as I disagree with most of your views on stuff, I will give you mad props for actually coming and debating with so many random internet people who have under 100 posts. I sure as hell wouldn't have the patience to do that, I'm prone to rage out in situations like that. |
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ZeroRyoko1974
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 258
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:56 pm |
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| Zac wrote: | | Fallout2man wrote: | | I think only maybe a few people here actually really understand the issue from both sides with any level of clarity or have any actual capacity to elaborate on their thoughts in a coherant and well-phrased manner. |
You need to get over yourself.
Also, I'm vastly more irritated by the people complaining about the discussion than the people having the discussion in the first place. |
I am more irritated by people complaining about people complaining. Oh wait, I am complaining about people complaining about people compaining |
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Pepperidge
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 936
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:11 pm |
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| calawain wrote: | | It's on good sources that this whole mess was a mistake by BayTSP. It looks like BayTSP forgot to turn their filters on to only pull Singapore IP addresses from the trackers. At least, this is according to alleged Odex employees who shall remain nameless. |
Quoted and bolded for emphasis. Now can we please end this and leave this debate for a context where it's actually relevant? Because it isn't here.
Last edited by Pepperidge on Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:13 pm |
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| ZeroRyoko1974 wrote: |
I am more irritated by people complaining about people complaining. Oh wait, I am complaining about people complaining about people compaining |
What you're doing is basically trolling. Keep it up and you'll have to find a new place to irritate everyone. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 4812
Location: Tana Village
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:46 pm |
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In response to some of the comments about iTunes and online music sales in the midst of rampant downloading: Funimation claimed that Speed Grapher found an audience and sales success when it was put on iTunes, partly because it was a "mature" offering in a store without many such offerings. But it shows there's a group of people who didn't know about Speed Grapher and hadn't already downloaded it illegally. The main problem with iTunes and other download sales is the Japanese licensors' reluctance to allow it. Or so I've heard from industry people at conventions.
I think it's also interesting that on some torrent sites out there, people are asking for English-dub-only .mp4 format files for the iPod or other portable device. Ironically, this demand is not being met by the traditional DVD-ripping community, so it might be a chance for the companies to make some sales on something that isn't being offered by the downloading scene. |
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Dargonxtc
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4153
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:52 pm |
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| calawain wrote: | | Not to stop the uh, really long essays in this thread about fansubbing. It's on good sources that this whole mess was a mistake by BayTSP. It looks like BayTSP forgot to turn their filters on to only pull Singapore IP addresses from the trackers. At least, this is according to alleged Odex employees who shall remain nameless. |
Just so I am clear on this.
BayTSP, was doing a job for Odex, where it was tracking the IP addresses of Singaporean's whom were suspected of being involved in internet piracy. Mistakes were made, and the search was never refined enough, so addresses in America started lighting up like a Christmas tree. All the while, before they could turn off the faulty search parameters, automated form notices were being sent to the respective ISPs telling them that addresses on their server where suspected of illegal activities. Even though none of them ever asked for such a third party search to begin with.
Does that sound about right? |
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KyuuA4
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 1157
Location: America, where anime and manga can be made
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:09 pm |
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| Zalis116 wrote: | | The main problem with iTunes and other download sales is the Japanese licensors' reluctance to allow it. Or so I've heard from industry people at conventions. |
Hmm... and you'd figure industry experts would consult someone like -- oh -- the music industry who underwent this market altering process -- changing from hardcopy (CD/DVD) sales over towards Internet downloading sales. As much as the Japanese animation industry would like to expand into foreign markets as much as possible, this would actually be a very effective way to do it. |
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Skycat
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:12 pm |
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What happened to freedom of speech, you guys keep on picking on the guy, poor Zac.
First of all I like to say I don’t know much about American law, and how they are run. However, I do understand that the industry needs to do this. The creators in Japan have right to stop their creations from mass release without getting any royalties for their hard work.
Ok, I know that anime DVD’s are expensive, and I pay 10% more than in US; however, did you guys ever think how much it cost to dub it??? Getting the actors, translators, script writers, and etc you need pay all those people and still make a profit.
I have to say if fan subs were not around I wouldn’t have gotten into Hellsing, but since then anything I like which I saw in subs, I buy it over the internet.
Plus I took up Japanese, because I got curious if the translations I was reading were right. So, I don’t watch fan subs anymore, I order Japanese channels via satellite. I know some people can’t do this for themselves because it’s kind of costly… Ok I’m done. |
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MokonaModoki
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 417
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:34 pm |
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| Dargonxtc wrote: | | calawain wrote: | | Not to stop the uh, really long essays in this thread about fansubbing. It's on good sources that this whole mess was a mistake by BayTSP. It looks like BayTSP forgot to turn their filters on to only pull Singapore IP addresses from the trackers. At least, this is according to alleged Odex employees who shall remain nameless. |
Just so I am clear on this.
BayTSP, was doing a job for Odex, where it was tracking the IP addresses of Singaporean's whom were suspected of being involved in internet piracy. Mistakes were made, and the search was never refined enough, so addresses in America started lighting up like a Christmas tree. All the while, before they could turn off the faulty search parameters, automated form notices were being sent to the respective ISPs telling them that addresses on their server where suspected of illegal activities. Even though none of them ever asked for such a third party search to begin with.
Does that sound about right? |
Sort of. I think the actual screening parameters need to be set by BayTSP's customer rather than BayTSP themselve (i.e. it was probably Odex's mistake).
BayTSP tracks by content, so if, for example, someone (in this case Odex/AVPAS) requests copyright-infringement content tracking for Gundam 00, then BayTSP will find every IP address distributing Gundam 00 that it can. This search would not be limited to Singapore (and there'd be no point to doing so).
All the infringing activity that BayTSP locates goes into a database that can be sorted or filtered by title, country, ISP, and distribution method or network, and there's a rules-based 'enforcement' engine that will automatically send take-down notices to the ISPs involved. These rules and filters can be set by the client, so that, for example, you could limit takedown notices to bittorrent users in Singapore (or to Comcast users, if desired).
I don't believe this impacts the validity of the takedown notices in any way, so much as it suggests that Odex/AVPAS didn't want to pay for enforcement outside of Singapore.
*shrug* |
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calawain
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 192
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:58 pm |
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| MokonaModoki wrote: |
Sort of. I think the actual screening parameters need to be set by BayTSP's customer rather than BayTSP themselve (i.e. it was probably Odex's mistake).
BayTSP tracks by content, so if, for example, someone (in this case Odex/AVPAS) requests copyright-infringement content tracking for Gundam 00, then BayTSP will find every IP address distributing Gundam 00 that it can. This search would not be limited to Singapore (and there'd be no point to doing so).
All the infringing activity that BayTSP locates goes into a database that can be sorted or filtered by title, country, ISP, and distribution method or network, and there's a rules-based 'enforcement' engine that will automatically send take-down notices to the ISPs involved. These rules and filters can be set by the client, so that, for example, you could limit takedown notices to bittorrent users in Singapore (or to Comcast users, if desired).
I don't believe this impacts the validity of the takedown notices in any way, so much as it suggests that Odex/AVPAS didn't want to pay for enforcement outside of Singapore.
*shrug* |
Actually I think Dargonxtc was correct here. BayTSP has been doing this type of job for Odex for awhile now. They are the source of the infringement notices and "pre-litigation settlement" letters that went out in August or so. BayTSP reportedly sends out tens of thousands of notices all over the world every month, it's a completely automated process. In this instance, Odex only updated the shows they wanted BayTSP to pull IPs from, and BayTSP changed the search parameters for their software but neglected to set the region filters correctly. I would assign most of the blame to BayTSP here, however this is based just my moderate knowledge of the technology and the reported sources. |
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LittleHobbit13
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:30 pm |
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| I thought this article was pretty interesting. Especially the blurb about Japanese companies requesting help from the US in stopping unauthorized reproduction of their titles. Shinsen-Subs just recently got a C&D letter regarding Romeo x Juliet. That was the first instance I've seen of that, but it sounds like maybe it may happen again or even more frequently. It'll be interesting to see how this affects the anime world. |
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MokonaModoki
Subscriber
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 417
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:31 pm |
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Yeah, that's certainly possible. I was referring to BayTSP's description of their services for my information. I was just assuming that Odex had subscribed new titles to track without specifying the rules to apply, which seemed the easiest way to make the mistake.
The part of dargonxtc's post that I was actually thinking might be off was the notion that BayTSP was "tracking the IP addresses of Singaporean's whom were suspected of being involved in internet piracy", which sounds a bit like the tail wagging the dog compared to how the process actually works (i.e. tracking content to identify IP addresses involved in distribution precedes suspicion of anyone). |
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Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3857
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:51 pm |
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| psycho 101 wrote: | | So we've again established the anime companies are asses for expecting us to pay their exorbitant amounts, that Mohawk is a cranky old bitter Englishman like that guy in the Snapple earl grey commercials, and that Zac is a anti-fansub nazi who would like to eat the flesh and kill the children of those that watch fansubs. So nothing new right? |
(Wipes tears from his eyes) I'm touched. I really am. I didn't realise you loved me so much, I'm...... speechless. 
BTW I hate Earl Grey, or any purfumed tea. Green, or English traditional is my cuppa and don't go near it with milk. Aye that 's a fine set of tea cozzies you got there, put the kettle on luv. 
Back on topic now, and this might have been a mistake but boy did it get the wasps out of their hive. I think fansubbers have taken their set of rails for granted for far too long and now they will realise that their artery isn't as secure as they once thought. I mean what good is a fansubber if his PC is cut off from the intarweb. It might have been a mistake, but it was one that was noticed by all and sundrey of the anime world. Mighty oaks, from little acorns, grow. |
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calawain
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 192
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:01 pm |
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| MokonaModoki wrote: | | The part of dargonxtc's post that I was actually thinking might be off was the notion that BayTSP was "tracking the IP addresses of Singaporean's whom were suspected of being involved in internet piracy", which sounds a bit like the tail wagging the dog compared to how the process actually works (i.e. tracking content to identify IP addresses involved in distribution precedes suspicion of anyone). |
You know reading that again I see your point. They don't track people as much as get in a tracker and pull the list of IP addresses currently sharing/downloading the file. So they have a list of numbers there, which they apply filters to, because you can roughly identify the country or region by the IP address iirc. Then they send that list of IP addresses to their automated DMCA takedown maker. Shazam, poof, abricadabra. |
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indrik
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 365
Location: yonder
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:02 pm |
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What's wrong with Earl Grey? I like Earl Grey....
| MokonaModoki wrote: | | I don't believe this impacts the validity of the takedown notices in any way, so much as it suggests that Odex/AVPAS didn't want to pay for enforcement outside of Singapore. |
My understanding is that it does affect the validity of the takedown. DMCA requires the copyright holder or their designated agent (I think that's the wording) to make the takedown request- in this case, I think it's not clear if Odex or their designated agent were acting as designated agents for the original copyright holder, since even if Odex were a legitimate licensee for the series in question, they're only licensees for Singapore. It sounds like they don't have standing outside Singapore, and they know it, which basically means that all the takedowns were invalid until somebody who does have standing in the US or France makes the complaint.
I think that's a problem with the DMCA, though, that the ISPs involved did the only thing they really could by issuing the takedown notices. It's in their legal best interest to take down first, and ask questions later. |
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