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NEWS: Anime BitTorrent Users Reportedly Sent Notices by ISPs


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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3862
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:12 pm Reply with quote
indrik wrote:
What's wrong with Earl Grey? I like Earl Grey....
Earl Grey 's aroma reminds me of those bisquets they put in the urinals in the public loos over here. Anime hyper
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Fallout2man



Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 271
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:36 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
You need to get over yourself.

Also, I'm vastly more irritated by the people complaining about the discussion than the people having the discussion in the first place.


You're hard to please good sir. Maybe you just don't want to respond when you don't feel you need to moderate the discussion, but it seems like you've yet to really say anything positive.


.....Someone needs a hug! :p
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MokonaModoki
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 417
Location: Austin, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:42 pm Reply with quote
indrik wrote:
What's wrong with Earl Grey? I like Earl Grey....

MokonaModoki wrote:
I don't believe this impacts the validity of the takedown notices in any way, so much as it suggests that Odex/AVPAS didn't want to pay for enforcement outside of Singapore.


My understanding is that it does affect the validity of the takedown. DMCA requires the copyright holder or their designated agent (I think that's the wording) to make the takedown request- in this case, I think it's not clear if Odex or their designated agent were acting as designated agents for the original copyright holder, since even if Odex were a legitimate licensee for the series in question, they're only licensees for Singapore. It sounds like they don't have standing outside Singapore, and they know it, which basically means that all the takedowns were invalid until somebody who does have standing in the US or France makes the complaint.

I think that's a problem with the DMCA, though, that the ISPs involved did the only thing they really could by issuing the takedown notices. It's in their legal best interest to take down first, and ask questions later.


The licensing aspect has been a point of confusion with this whole issue, but it actually doesn't factor in. Odex does, in fact (at least as far as they say), have designated agent status from the original copyright holders for some 400 titles via their situation with AVPAS, not from licensing those titles. The fact that the focus of their actions has been (intended to be) Singapore doesn't change that in any way except what their intent is. They just aren't intending to expend resources (i.e. money) on enforcement outside of Singapore, but if they did it should be valid.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Fallout2man wrote:

You're hard to please good sir. Maybe you just don't want to respond when you don't feel you need to moderate the discussion, but it seems like you've yet to really say anything positive.


.....Someone needs a hug! :p


Say something positive? I didn't realize that was a requirement. Alright, how about this:

Quote:


I agree, there are issues, but we need to approach the right solutions. Getting a baseball bat and whacking the metaphorical bee-hive to hope the infestation will go away, wouldn't be what I'd consider a good solution to this problem. Legal solutions are appearing and I applaud the effort. Hell I just recently noticed Anime network getting into the act and I think it's absolutely wonderful. We have to keep going down the right path though and we won't exactly attract new people to the wonderful world of anime fandom with speeches not based on the truth. We need to support anime, I'm betting the industry needs our support more than ever right now. However for us to help it, and not hurt it, we need to convince people and not drive them away. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.


I agree with all of this.
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indrik



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 365
Location: yonder
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:30 pm Reply with quote
MokonaModoki wrote:
The licensing aspect has been a point of confusion with this whole issue, but it actually doesn't factor in. Odex does, in fact (at least as far as they say), have designated agent status from the original copyright holders for some 400 titles via their situation with AVPAS, not from licensing those titles. The fact that the focus of their actions has been (intended to be) Singapore doesn't change that in any way except what their intent is. They just aren't intending to expend resources (i.e. money) on enforcement outside of Singapore, but if they did it should be valid.


Ah yeah- forgot about that. But I thought it was under dispute whether Odex actually had designated agent status for those?
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MokonaModoki
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:30 pm Reply with quote
indrik wrote:

Ah yeah- forgot about that. But I thought it was under dispute whether Odex actually had designated agent status for those?


Honestly, we're reaching the limits of what I can pretend to know about the issue, but I think most of the dispute in the past has been with regard to the status of Odex/AVPAS having any right to subpoena identity information associated with IP addresses under Singaporean copyright law (since they lost a court ruling in one case for not being an exclusive licensee of the titles in question). It may be a bizarre twist here that their position could be interpreted as stronger under US (DMCA) law. That's sheer conjecture though.

In any case, Odex (as AVPAS) claims to have precisely the required status for the purposes of the DMCA, unless that authorization is limited to southeast asia in any way (and if it is then they certainly aren't saying so).
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4154
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:46 pm Reply with quote
MokonaModoki wrote:
The part of dargonxtc's post that I was actually thinking might be off was the notion that BayTSP was "tracking the IP addresses of Singaporean's whom were suspected of being involved in internet piracy", which sounds a bit like the tail wagging the dog compared to how the process actually works (i.e. tracking content to identify IP addresses involved in distribution precedes suspicion of anyone).

Ah, I see. So in other words, they were looking at everyone first, then determining out of that bunch which would qualify for notices. To where the way I said it, it sounded like they had a certain group in mind first (which they didn't since they were looking at everyone in Singapore), and they were just going the extra step of getting some evidence.

Is that right? Better?
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Aresef



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 174
Location: MD
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:40 pm Reply with quote
Funnily enough, I'm getting Verizon FiOS installed Saturday.

And you know the situation is desperate when Verizon seems like a relatively responsible company.
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ikillchicken
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Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 2517
Location: Vancouver - Go Canucks Go!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:50 pm Reply with quote
psycho 101 wrote:
It is different from getting punished but I would expect it to not simply stop at a copywrite claim. I mean if it does what was the point? Though perhaps instead of saying likely I should have said possibly will be punished somehow.


Well, it may be the turth that very little will come of this and it will be pointless. I'd advise the fansub haters not to start breaking out the champagne just yet. As people have said, theres a solid posibility that this is just a result of a stupid mistake on Odex part. If so, they really have no reason or even ability to actually sue anyone. Also, theres the possibility that this is just a scare tactic. To actually take people to court would take much more time and effort. Infact, IMO the fact that they reported them to the ISP instead if just going right to suing them seems to indicate they won't be at all. Its really just semantics as to wether you should call it likely/possible/etc. but I personally would say that this tells us nothing more than what we already knew about Japan and/or North American companies plans to take action against piracy.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:53 pm Reply with quote
(I still don't speak English so be nice and don't point out my faults.)

Disclaimer: I don't want to defend the fansubbers. However...

it's interesting to check out the list of the animes in question:
- Suteki Tantei Labyrinth
- Mobile Suit Gundam 00
- Seto no Hanayome
- Nagasarete Airantou
- Shugo Chara!
- Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni Kai.

I can't say anything about most of them (sorry just not my style) but Nagasarete Airantou and
Seto no Hanayome are two series I tried out and failed to finish to watch.

As you are all fans here, you can imagine how that feels.

No I am not berserk on quality. I will buy Lucky Star, because I find it entertaining
and I can list the low cost solutions of that show on two A4 pages (both sides written).
No, I am not a moe fan either, usually I don't even think to watch a show like Lucky Star
(whatever moe is). However if some studio out there would make another Lucky Star,
just copying the script, it'll be quite annoying to watch it. Of course there's a high
probability Lucky Star itself is already reusing elements from another storyline, because
there's only so much things witch preoccupies a student. But then usually I don't watch shows like
Lucky Star, so I suppose that's all right. Perhaps you don't get my point, so...

Let's speak about another product from that list. Mobile Suit Gundam 00. Also a series
I usually don't watch but for the shake of this discussion. Did you noticed they reused the
back story of Sosuke Sagara of FMP (also a fairly recent show) for their principal protagonist
with almost no change? It's a blessing Chidori doesn't appears in the show, but after all
Mobile Suit Gundam 00 is not a comedy. Also they're mentioning "Celestial Beings' (and the keyword Gundam) in every few
minutes with nauseating effectiveness. Besides filler conversations and scenes,
the best you can say of the show: the CGI is good. Lost interest after the fifth chapter.

I think the industry doesn't really estimates the effect on a fan of buying a show he doesn't like
at all.

I imagine the response is ready: there are so much bad products and after the great shows
we need to sell those too. Isn't that the whole story of Geneon in ten words?

Miyazaki doesn't have a problem with his sales. A studio could make bad shows for TV,
that's all right, after all there's always another channel or you can take off a book or a
DVD from the shelf. But no one should ever try to sell bad shows on DVD because that will kill
the fan base.

Just as someone who was cheated in a restorant witch serves bad food,
your anime fan won't buy the next show if you deliver him a patchwork cut together from
other people's ideas and characters. Or deliver a horribly boring "show".

I think anime should be labelled. "Just for hardcore Gundam fans who buy everything with the
Gundam word on it" "Just for guys who laugh on someone kicked in the balls" (Seto no Hanayome)
"Just for fans who like harem anime with no story" (Nagasarete Airantou)
etc.

The problem is, there's no such a thing as an anime quality label. Remember Haruhi Sizumiya? And the
melancholy? After the fifth chapter the show turns out to be boring and low quality, but the distributor
succeeded to generate great "buzz" around it. Check out the description made by a fan? But supposedly
he is a fan so his opinion is probably biased. Check out ANN's encyclopedia? ANN really has a whole encyclopedia... of
backcover descriptions.

By the by, streaming the few first chapters won't help to raise the popularity of a bad show. It would
only motivate the studios to put more work into the first few chapters. Just like in the case of the
terribly boring Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (it could also motivate them to make a first good DVD
then let the fan wait for better episodes and buy the DVDs, like in the case of the terribly boring...).

The solution is obvious: stop the fans watching the series. Make them buy it, then feel very sorry about it.
Who cares about future sales of someone else's product?
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MokonaModoki
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 417
Location: Austin, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:53 pm Reply with quote
Dargonxtc wrote:
Is that right? Better?


Yep. Smile
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Psycho 101
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 5229
Location: In the Grumpmobile with Grumpyman fighting crime one pot of coffee at a time.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:35 am Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
indrik wrote:
What's wrong with Earl Grey? I like Earl Grey....
Earl Grey 's aroma reminds me of those bisquets they put in the urinals in the public loos over here. Anime hyper


What a nice image. I honestly have one of those Snapple bottles in my fridge as we speak but now all I can imagine is some English bloke pissing in a urinal and then bottling it. Yum. And I do agree that there should be no milk in your tea. Bleh.

ikillchicken wrote:
psycho 101 wrote:
It is different from getting punished but I would expect it to not simply stop at a copywrite claim. I mean if it does what was the point? Though perhaps instead of saying likely I should have said possibly will be punished somehow.


Well, it may be the turth that very little will come of this and it will be pointless. I'd advise the fansub haters not to start breaking out the champagne just yet. As people have said, theres a solid posibility that this is just a result of a stupid mistake on Odex part. If so, they really have no reason or even ability to actually sue anyone. Also, theres the possibility that this is just a scare tactic. To actually take people to court would take much more time and effort. Infact, IMO the fact that they reported them to the ISP instead if just going right to suing them seems to indicate they won't be at all. Its really just semantics as to wether you should call it likely/possible/etc. but I personally would say that this tells us nothing more than what we already knew about Japan and/or North American companies plans to take action against piracy.


It would be nice if more came of this but even if nothing does it's still a step up then what's gone on so far. To me this shows that the companies are taking this seriously and finally starting to step up to the plate and try and curb fansubs and lessen their problem. Hopefully the companies won't stop here or worse yet start backing down again and heading backwards in terms of progress.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9194
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:46 am Reply with quote
omnistry wrote:
Also it's unfair that you can just watch the show in Japan and if you like it you can buy it, while here it's "buy the DVD and if good: worth the money, and bad: $30 down the drain." Fansubs are really the only way to find out if the show is going to be worth your time.

Yes but do you realize how much the Japanese pay for their anime when it's R2? We're talking about two to three times the amount of what you might pay per DVD over here, and often times with less episodes. I agree that fansubs allow people to "sample" the series, but you have to download the entire thing when it comes to Bleach or Naruto? Or even some of the other big name series when their DVDs are out?
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Murasakisuishou



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 1469
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:09 am Reply with quote
Mylene wrote:
Paploo wrote:
Libraries!


It seems to surprise some people, but if you ask about how to make a request for an item to be added at your library (such as a volume of manga, or even the series), you'll often see your wishes fulfilled.


In theory, unless (like me) you live in a town that despises young people, and if you politely go to the front desk to ask if they can get a few volumes of manga from another library they look at you like you've just asked for crack, say they're not familiar with the title, and then, when you say something to the effect of "That's why I'm asking you to look for it in another library", all still politely, threaten to kick you out for 'raising your voice'. Tried that once, never did it again. My library is one of those libraries that doesn't believe in books unless the name of the author is bigger than the title.

But if you're lucky enough to live in a district with a library that actually wants people under age 40 there, I assume it can be a great resource for trying anime titles without buying.

And in regard to the article:

cloud1989 wrote:
posted on AS buy user darkmirage

Quoting a comment left on my blog:

Quote:
SMSed peter of odex today about this matter and his response is this

“Thank you for telling me, i was aware of it yesterday and the problem is fixed” quote Peter Go

And the problem he is referring to, is “misfiring of ur(odex’s) warning email” by baytsp “to others around the world” Quoting my own SMS
Uh... lol?

After speaking to an Odex employee, it appears that the entire thing was a mistake by BayTSP. I am laughing so hard right now.

well, it seems the problem has been solved, topic should be closed before it becomes a big off topic debate about fansubs.


Any more news on this?
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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1004
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:32 am Reply with quote
Murasakisuishou wrote:
Any more news on this?

Yes, and it appears darkmirage's info was correct. Here is a newspaper article from Singapore. More info is available on another anime site that I am not allowed to link to here.

http://a.imagehost.org/0030/21_odex_lol.jpg
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