Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post Report Post
I agree on so many points but as an Executive in Entertainment AND a fan, I have my own views about this. See below:
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In Al Kahn's view, fans monitor the success or failure of shows in Japan very carefully,
Um, no they don't pay attention to the success or failure of the show. They monitor the WOM for those shows. Only marketing people who don't know a damn thing about what sells here care whether it's big in Japan. You know, like yourself.
<K> I agree with you however I don't DISAGREE with Al Kahn either..fans do monitor the success of shows in japan--that's why the hardcore fanbase translate, scanlate and bring over some properties on their own BECAUSE they either know it will never get brought over here based on the current outdated anme/manga industry in america or because they know that it will but will be heavily censored. The point I would put here is not whether fans do or don't but rather--what difference does it make to Al kahn..his job is to fill content to hawk goods not to be the arbiter of what is good or successful anime. Not to disrespect Mr. Kahn but we all know he could give a damn about anime..he is a used car salesmen..he just wants product that's going to sell and for that I don't begrudge him.<K>
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but American marketers have to remember how particular properties relate to specefic age groups in the U.S. For example, popular as it was with vocal fans, 4Kids had a very hard time localizing One Piece in a way that would satisfy fans on one side, and advertisers and television company executives on the other.
Yeah, go ahead and warn others about your mistake as if you've actually learned something from it.
<K> I agree with you. The bottom line is that 4Kids had no business bringing One Piece over when they recognized the difficulty. If they cannot respect the original source material for American audiences (which is bizarre given that before that property even came Fullmetal Alchemist and DBZ were proving you could be reasonably true to anime/manga's source material AND have merchandising success not to mention he could have aired One Piece as it was originally intended on cartoon network but chose to put it on Fox Box which is obviously meant for a different audience). My question is moreso what function does 4Kids serve (or any of these companies) if they cannot view properties that they DID NOT CREATE in a true logical, professional and analytical sense so that they could bring it over with some intelligence? The most non-business oriented fan could have told 4kids not to dumb down One Piece and yet 4Kids people get paid a helluva lot more than the average fansubber, ANN editor in chief and so on.<K>
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In Neves' experience, American companies that release Japanese popular culture products in the U.S. have to consider the much different geography of the U.S., in particular, the issue of regional differences. Something that may be considered perfectly innocuous when aired in New York or Los Angeles may cause significant problems for a Midwestern television station with a large rural viewership.
Yes, James wearing a bikini is bad, but when Larry Craig hits on some guy in a bathroom, it's fine and dandy.
<K> I think this is serious BS. You think 'Heroes' Ugly Betty or the Batman worry about that?? This is an excuse for overpaid or useless executives trying to prove to fans why they make the big bucks. Honestly, if you're worried about a content that is a proven commodity working in the midwest then you need to not be in your job. That is seriously a cop out. There are so many avenues to promote, publish and retail goods (moreso now wiht the internet) that excuses like this are exactly why anime sales in America are at all time lows and Manga is a niche only market. <k>
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Answering the same question, Rich Johnson called it the "duty" of manga publishers to push the boundaries of what American audiences are comfortable with. His expectation is that the manga market will continue to mature and there will be more and more books out that expand the boundaries of manga.
I agree, but moe =/= mature.
<K> Rich is speaking like an actual executive who understands his position. Kudos Rich! Working in Comics in this country will teach you that you have to train mainstream america not the other way around. It absolutely IS the responsibility of the companies to 'widen the pie' (i.e. pie chart--business term) so that everyone -- consumers and companies can enjoy the opportunities. I am mostly into shonen myself and don't particularly care to read Moe, BL or any other non shonen or seinen work but I cannot for the life of me imagine why bringing over more work and more genres is not a win for everyone<k>
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Japanese television studios are actively looking for co-production partners. However, since these studios were frequently not interested in welcoming outside partnerships when the market was still doing well, many of the potential partners are now themselves not interested in again working with them.
That's bull. Japanese animated shows are significantly cheaper than American animated shows, and, as such, there will always be an opportunity for them to get co-productions.
<K> You are 100000000% right! This is another BS line from an overpaid executive. I don't know who said but am curious because each of those people should know better than that. There are a ton of companies that can and could and should work with japanese. I DO agree that the Japanese companies are high on the horse from their glory days and many are asking extremely ambitious sums of money but nonetheless it's all BS. Try producing an episode of Futurama and see how much it costs to pay a mildly successful actress (although I love her in MWC and Futurama) like Katey Sagal to voice Leela for one episode versus an anime actress to voice a character for One Piece. It's greed on both sides but if there is co-partnership to be done 4Kids should be paying out the pocket to produce whatever silly ass kid show they want to hawk merchandise goods out of. Why are they and Viz and others NOT doing it? Because..a proven commodity means that Mattel and others will give them a fat check for some substandard toys and half their merchandising job is done when it's their own property these overpaid executives have to actually work to prove their show is worth any money for toys, t-shirts and videogames. It's a shame. <k>
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At the same time, in his opinion, much of what is being produced is too derivative of major successes. There is little coming out of the Japanese anime studios that is truly innovative, and the most creative new animation is now coming out of South Korea and other countries in the region.
S. Korea's got great artists, but its stories are a helluva lot more derivative than what's big in Japan.
<K> I don't know much about anime in korea so I can't comment on this. I disagree that product is derivative..hell marvel comics is breaking the bank on licensing -- their stock is 90% due to licensing when a movie comes out and what in the hell is the difference from iron man to spiderman to hulk..not much in the grand scheme..no more so than shonen jump properties are all mostly the same. I reject the premise that derivative product cannot find success. <k>
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"I think it's over in Japan," says the 4Kids executive, and the problem is on a systemic level, as publishers and creators do not care about actual user demand. For their part, 4Kids itself is not interested in Japanese products, with the exception of Dinosaur King, nearly to the extent that they were at one point.
Poor baby. I'm sorry you ran out of shows to hack for advertisers who've chosen to move from tv to the Internet.
<K> Totally agree with you. Kahn should be embarrased (he's not..we all know this but still). As I said earlier, Kahn who to his credit admits this fully--is after merchandising potential so to him if he's not selling YGO level t-shirts, coloring books and so on then screw it. I don't disagree but then I have two points to Al. One, the world is full of pre-made properties for you to pull off and so is japan but be prepared for the japanese atleast to deal with scrutiny from americans who are now very very savvy about japanese anime/manga and will not settle for meddling from the overpaid execs at 4Kids. If u want a pre-packaged anime that you can substantially change like Robotech or Starblazers and other anime from the 70's-90's then you're going to have to go gutter level like Dinoaur king. Secondly, you did not make Pokemon and YGO successful. This is the thing that burns me up with these guys so much!! Viz is about as important to naruto as kleenex is important to global warming. I mean these people DID NOT CREATE the works! These works ARE PROVEN SUCCESSES! In most cases, they DID NOT CREATE THE PACKAGING of their own products. I hazard to guess what the true cost of a naruto manga would actually be in America if I took out the cost of the 'editor', marketing execs and sales VP's. Honestly, any buyer at Borders and barnes and noble by now knows to go onto websites like this and learn about properties and their fandom BEFORE it's ever licensed. By now, fansubbers and scanlaters are actually better communicators and produce just as quality level production as executives at the anime/ manga companies in US. Pokemon was subsidized by Nintendo. YGO had Upper Deck and Konami major support. Those horrible anime dub overs by 4Kids didn't help it. It's maddening for myself as an executive to listen to this BS because it's not true. Our economy in the manga/anime world is overpriced because of the lie and self belief that many of these companies like Funimation are actually doing something that was needed. I'm waiting for the day the japanese anime companies get wise and just [expletive] produce their product in japan for english and japanese fans, post them on the web and do away with these overpriced execs here. Maybe then I can pay $3.99 for volume of naruto manga and $19.99 for a 'boxset' that has almost no interesting extras whatsoever. <k>
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At this point, Viz's Coppola threw out her own opinion that ultimately, viewers are interested in content, not origin, and that viewers will buy and whatch whatever "makes sense", regardless of where it was produced.
Tell it like it is, Liza.
<K> Agree with Liza as well. <K>
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Kahn says that the original anime hits, including Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh! and Dragon Ball Z are all still sustaining sales, but since then, there has not been any Japanese import that has been as successful. There is a significant amount of anime available in the U.S., but there is little in the way of broad overall acceptance. For 4Kids, if there is little probability that the toys and other merchandise for a given series will sell well, there is no point in releasing the series itself,
How about the fact that fans are willing to pay for the properties themselves?
<K> Agreed...that and the fact that the fans ARE bringing them over in quality, timeliness and methods that are effective for fans. I'm not talking free either..but bottom line is anime/manga is niche..why should I wait for it to come here when I can explore my fandom more on the net. The sad truth is that most consumers who look at fansubs and scanlations would pay if they were done day in and day out with their orginal Japanese releases <k>
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since DVD sales alone are not likely to ever recoup costs.
That must be why Naruto and Miyazaki continue to do horribly at Best Buy. Oh, wait!
<K> No comment on this. Anime is in a sad state in America right now. Most fans don't know. The japanese are to blame for this as well. Asking ridiculous rates for licensing their propeties. Bottom line..anime is not a superior work to other works..so the idea that I should pay same price or more for a dvd of anime vs. a dvd like Transformers that cost almost $175M to make and grossed $400M is absurd! The biggest con job of all are the american companies though--- sales executives for these companies. I should not be paying $24.99 for a dvd or $49.99 for 13 episodes of a box set because built into it are a marketing executives cost (salary, budget) who did nothing but re-use exsiting artwork from japan. Sales VP's have the glamous job of going to Best Buy, taking out the DVD buyer to a luxurious meal in MN and doing it all so that they buyer knows and commits to buying naruto or fma dvd's. really? They should be going on the internet and reading posts like this and doing the work themselves as buyers and executives should be having minimum sales budgets and certainly small to no staff because the work is quite readily evident on the net. Ofcourse, to use the net to promote the work does two things..one it shows the irrelevance of the american company to the buyer and two it shows the buyer that fans might actually already own the product via the web. These are dark times for anime but moreso because the overpaid execs are not actually working to figure out a solution but are getting paid to let fans do most of the work to sell these prodcuts for them. <k>
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Several of the panelists then agreed with the idea that generally, Japanese rights-holders themselves have offered American licensees little in the way of marketing help,
Why should they? If you don't think it'll do well here, then don't buy it, plain and simple.
<K> Agreed although not the way you say it. If people don't buy it then we all lose so I think you're wrong in your comment BUT I agree japanese shouldn't help because in the end..why in the hell does Viz, adv, 4kids, funimation exist at all if they canot figure out how to sell products. Why does Gen Fukanaga and Al Kahn (amongst others) even have a voice on a panel if they know the problems and yet have no solutions? When I buy a product for the price I do--I assume this is because the best is going into it..when I read a comment like this it reminds me why the music industry got their asses kicked by a computer company.<k>
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Al Kahn, however, again was not as optimistic, and cautioned that frequently, buyers are now looking not only at a particular toy's immediate sales potential, but also at its staying power on the shelves.
Why? So the lead can contaminate the employees, too? Rolling Eyes
<K> Again..you're coming off spiteful and I'm more interested in talking about the realities of anime/manga issues in America. Al is right but again..that's the point..do the work Al. if you cannot assuage the buyers fears of being stuck with bad product then u're either not in the right industry anymore or you're not worth the money you're being paid. If it were easy we'd all be rich. Fansubbers would do what you did with Pokemon and YGO and latch on to a pre-made commodity and get rich. <k>
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Many only want to stick to only buying products that they are already familiar with, and are not wiling to experiment or expand into new areas.
The inventor of the slinky must be rolling in his grave.
<K> That's obviously an isssue at every retailer in america..it's just the way it is. Again..companies like Funimation, Viz and so on..do not actually make these products they sell so I can understand their fear.my issue to them is stop complaining and whining...either show us you can do something worthwhile or get out. It's only a matter of time before fansubbers/ scanlaters replace the Viz's of the world.
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As the panel wound down, the moderators brought up the inevitable question of the risk that illegal downloads present to the American anime industry and the challenge that is posed by the often-lengthy delay between when an anime is licensed and when it is available for purchase. For 4Kids, this is actually largely a non-issue.
Um, you do know you're an idiot, right Kahn? The torrents of fansubbed One Piece most likely contributed even more to less people watching the edited version of your show.
<K> This is a problem for the anime/ manga companies in this country but ironically it's NOT a problem to the fans. <K>
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Most of their target audience does not have access to high-speed internet connections,
Huh? Half the people who bootleg are kids!
<K> I don't know what you're saying is accurate because u're not backing it with facts. Likewise, I would argue who they think their target audience is. If you speak to the NFL and NBA and so on..u'd be amazed that their target markets are actually old men and likewise, videogames traget audiences are 18-34M and a growing female base. So, I wonder who they think their target audience is <k>
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while their business model itself is based around extensive localization, rather than just speedy release.
And look how successful your "localization" has helped your recent profit margins...
<K> I've addressed this already...Viz, 4Kids and other shouldn't exist when their localization efforts have created an overpriced market, has created no new innovation and likewise, can be done by fans for far less money on equipment that I can get for free on the net. It says alot about these companies that they are being undone by fans in such a novel way. This isn't like music companies..because they actually created the music..Viz didn't create anime/manga..hell 4Kids routinely tried to destroy it so their costs are over budgeted period <k>
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To him, one of tthe greatest contributions of the popularity of anime in the West has been the fact that as Western animators and producers have been learning new techniques and honing their skills, Japan may be less and less relevant to the most cutting-edge popular culture products throughout the world.
Yes, talking animals and gay warriors in 3-d is the height of "cutting edge". Rolling Eyes
<K> I actually agree with them on this. I do see anime/ manga becoming more adapted by others. The sheer fact that anime/manga has a desire to portray japanese characters who look white while ignoring the large influence around the world of latinos, middle eastern and ofcourse the very powerful influence of hip hop/black culture on everything from music to fashion..is just an aspect that I think is going to harm their business as we move more towards a global economy..the next great anime/manga could be from a brazilian kid. <k> |
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