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Open Letter from GDH International's Arthur Smith


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firedragon54738



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 290
Location: wisconsin

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:27 pm Reply with quote
the high cost of anime and trying to find it in stores and the waiting for each dvd to be release. most people wait for the box set comes out to buy it. If they wood release more then 4 or 5ep per dvd and over 6mouth to a few years to watch the hole thing form start to finish. so most wait or watch it on the internet but people are still watching anime so that some thing sub or dub as long as there anime to watch somw where Confused
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:38 pm Reply with quote
The problem with other pricing structures is that they have a fair amount of people willing to buy dvds at the current prices. Those people may or may not buy more dvds if they had more episodes on dvd. There are probably only so many shows people want to get. Their theory is that the market isn't big enough for it to matter too much if they price anime a lot lower.

The thing is, they may be right. But this all goes back to the previous arguments I've made. If those who aren't buying are downloading then they are doing it because of money they don't have. The only thing I expect from downloaders is to do the best they can. That means, if one cannot buy the whole series, one should at least buy something. I understand as much as anyone what not having money is like. I'm not the type to tell people to "do without" when they don't have money. But people should buy to support what they value. To not do so is foolish. If the industry dies or stops producing shows that people like because those same people were not willing to pay they should blame themselves for it. It's wrong to expect others to pay instead.
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desterion



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
That argument makes sense. The problem is that since they aren't willing to "risk" I think they will end up believing it's a failure. I personally will go along with the idea, and I guess if I like the free content I'll buy all the rest out of a desire to show interest in the plan. If I don't like the free content I'll at least try one episode of the pay stuff before giving up on it.

I think, though, that I'm a little bit more willing to go out on a limb than other people. Despite the fact that I'm very much anti-copyright I do care how the industry is doing and I do want to support it as much as I can personally.

I do agree with you about the problems of having multiple companies distributing directly. I think it should be done on other basis similar to this. I'm more of a dub fan than a sub fan personally (I've watched 4 fansub shows, Clannad, Claymore, Gundam 00 and Rental Magica). Because of this, who is handling distribution matters a lot less to me. I don't hate the American industry as some here do. I think they do a reasonable job, and I like most of the dubs I've watched. My only issue with any of the companies is targeting free distribution instead of producing an alternative. I also think that attempts like this are very weak and probably not going to be convincing to many people. I hope that I'm wrong about that but I don't think that I am. They really need to try harder than this.


You are certainly deprived then. I feel your pain for having to watch all dubs. Generally, the dub cannot even compare to a fansub and really decreases the value of a show. All 4 of those are fairly recent as well, 3 of them ongoing. I'd hope you're watching gundam 00. I cringe every time i remember the dub job that was done on Gundam Seed. Most dubs are so bad they'l make you want to throw up. Personally, i can only think of about a dozen or so, that i'd say were done well. And thats gotta be out of hundreds of dubs. Even then, if it's a well done dub, it generally doesn't hold a candle to a well done sub. One piece is a perfect example of an amazing sub, but a horrific dub. They just completely trashed any value the show had with the voices. It's so bad that it's shameful to watch knowing what the original is. Thus is the status of most dubbed anime. Most people content with dubbing, are generally that way because they don't realize that the grass is green on the other side, but dead brown on theirs.
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OneHotAlchemist



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:51 pm Reply with quote
desterion wrote:
Xanas wrote:

I do agree with you about the problems of having multiple companies distributing directly. I think it should be done on other basis similar to this. I'm more of a dub fan than a sub fan personally (I've watched 4 fansub shows, Clannad, Claymore, Gundam 00 and Rental Magica). Because of this, who is handling distribution matters a lot less to me. I don't hate the American industry as some here do. I think they do a reasonable job, and I like most of the dubs I've watched. My only issue with any of the companies is targeting free distribution instead of producing an alternative. I also think that attempts like this are very weak and probably not going to be convincing to many people. I hope that I'm wrong about that but I don't think that I am. They really need to try harder than this.


You are certainly deprived then. I feel your pain for having to watch all dubs. Generally, the dub cannot even compare to a fansub and really decreases the value of a show. All 4 of those are fairly recent as well, 3 of them ongoing. I'd hope you're watching gundam 00. I cringe every time i remember the dub job that was done on Gundam Seed. Most dubs are so bad they'l make you want to throw up. Personally, i can only think of about a dozen or so, that i'd say were done well. And thats gotta be out of hundreds of dubs. Even then, if it's a well done dub, it generally doesn't hold a candle to a well done sub. One piece is a perfect example of an amazing sub, but a horrific dub. They just completely trashed any value the show hadwith the voices. It's so bad that it's shameful to watch knowing what the original is. Thus is the status of most dubbed anime. Most people content with dubbing, are generally that way because they don't realize that the grass is green on the other side, but dead brown on theirs.


That's hogwash. While there are outright horrible dubs, there are dubs that are far and away better than the original japanese. The uninspired dub of FMA for instance, or Fruits basket. Its also safe to assume that these shows would not have been anywhere near as big in the US had it not been for the quality of their dubs.

Generally, fansubs tend to be shoddy translations at best, and downright incorrect as worst. Where people get the idea that a fansub is infinitely better than even a studio translation (that takes into account more than just the spoken words, such as intonation, meaning in context, even author's intent etc) astounds me.

That being said, I haven't seen a workable solution in this entire thread. Those at least thinking about it should be commended. The other 95% or so seem to just want to kill the anime industry and watch low-quality fansubs.

Heck, the fact that I could have bought a car with the amount of anime I've purchased in the last 5 years infuriates me, since I'm actually ya know... supporting the anime I enjoy. The problem isn't going to change until the subculture views those who download entire fansubbed series as possible threats to what they like, instead of the "smart thing to do".

Now I realize many teenagers don't have money, but seriously, 25 bucks for a DVD isn't asking a whole lot. Considering I know a great many teenage girls who happily spend hundreds on un-needed clothes. I also realize some parents won't buy anime for their kids. But many will. The vast majority of the teenage segment of the fandom should be able to afford a few DVD's. While there are true exceptions to this rule, the vast majority (and the seeming majority) shouldn't be affected.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:06 pm Reply with quote
I promise that I don't feel any pain from watching mostly dubs. I prefer it because I like it. I think people are generally harder on what they watched second, but I'll also grant that there are some really lame dubs out there. This being said, there are also some truly great dubs. I'll never believe that the FMA dub was terrible, or that the FMP dub was terrible, or Naruto or Bleach. All of those shows (and many more) have great dubs and good casts.

All this being said I admire the Japanese language and find it to be a beautiful, elegant one. I think it's "cool." But I like my own language as well, and i prefer to watch story over reading subtitles.

Quote:

Considering I know a great many teenage girls who happily spend hundreds on un-needed clothes

Well, I do agree with you here.. This being said I agree with you based on my own values. I would prefer to spend money on anime than "unneeded clothing" as well. I don't like to buy clothing at all really, I prefer to buy anything to that. I only buy what I need there and am quite minimalistic about it. The idea of spending more than 20$ on jeans or slacks is generally ridiculous to me.

The idea of spending more than 30$ on a pair of shoes as well. I can't imagine that. But, others value those things much more than I do and I suppose they get some kind of enjoyment out of it. It's not really up to me to tell them what they should or shouldn't value. Those industries have people working and such as well. It's not like I want them to lose their jobs either. Ultimately, I think, what we should seek is some kind of balance.
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Romuska
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Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:00 pm Reply with quote
Here's a thought. Imagine that a popluar series like The Office is released on DVD. However instead of releasing the episodes as an enitre season, only 3-5 episodes are released on DVD as an individual volume at a retail price of $25-29. Now let's say that there are 26 episodes of the office in one season. So a year after the final volume has been released NBC decides to release a DVD box set. However the box set is $150.

Now imagine that someone has told you that The Office was a really cool show and you're curious to check it out. But the series is now on episode 12. (We'll pretend that The Office relies on continuity.) You could go to an in-demand channel assuming you have digital cable but they generally only have a few episodes availible at a time. Do you really think it's worth it to drop $25-30 just to check the show out? Most likely not.

What if someone on the internet was offering episodes of The Office for free. Legally you should buy one of the DVD's but let's say you download the first episode and you liked it. In fact you liked it so much that you decided to buy the box set despite the $150 price tag because it's the only legal way to own the entire series.

But now let's say you downloaded the first episode and didn't like it. No harm done, you erase it from your hard drive and that's the end of it. But what if you bought the first DVD and didn't like it. That's $25-30 you just wasted. Gant it, you could just go to the store and return it.

But what if there was a website where you could legally rent the episode for let's say, $1 and buy the episode for $2 in HD quality almost as soon as the episode airs on television. If you don't like the show you would have only wasted $1.


Now for the sake of more argument, what if you realized you liked the original British version of the serise a lot better and chose not to watch the American version. However the American version is the only one that can be seen on TV and the only way to see the British version is on DVD. However once again to get the DVD you have to pay $25-30 for volume one or $150 for the entire series because the website didn't offer the original British version. (Let's pretend the British and American version have the same number of episodes)

Wouldn't most of these problems have been solved if you had an option to view either the British version or the American version from the start online for a small fee?

So I once again ask, why should I have to invest so much money just to check out a series in it's original language? Couldn't the anime industry come up with a way to release anime on an episode by episode basis online in the best quality possible and as fast as possible with language options just like fansubs do? Obviously it would take a little more time because of licensing but now that you can dowbload fansubs in HD quality, there's going to be little to redeem your purchase when HD becomes the standard.
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hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 1312
Location: England. Robin is so Cute!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Romuska wrote:
Here's a thought. Imagine that a popluar series like The Office is released on DVD. However instead of releasing the episodes as an enitre season, only 3-5 episodes are released on DVD as an individual volume at a retail price of $25-29. Now let's say that there are 26 episodes of the office in one season. So a year after the final volume has been released NBC decides to release a DVD box set. However the box set is $150.

Now imagine that someone has told you that The Office was a really cool show and you're curious to check it out. But the series is now on episode 12. (We'll pretend that The Office relies on continuity.) You could go to an in-demand channel assuming you have digital cable but they generally only have a few episodes availible at a time. Do you really think it's worth it to drop $25-30 just to check the show out? Most likely not.

What if someone on the internet was offering episodes of The Office for free. Legally you should buy one of the DVD's but let's say you download the first episode and you liked it. In fact you liked it so much that you decided to buy the box set despite the $150 price tag because it's the only legal way to own the entire series.

But now let's say you downloaded the first episode and didn't like it. No harm done, you erase it from your hard drive and that's the end of it. But what if you bought the first DVD and didn't like it. That's $25-30 you just wasted. Gant it, you could just go to the store and return it.

But what if there was a website where you could legally rent the episode for let's say, $1 and buy the episode for $2 in HD quality almost as soon as the episode airs on television. If you don't like the show you would have only wasted $1.


Now for the sake of more argument, what if you realized you liked the original British version of the serise a lot better and chose not to watch the American version. However the American version is the only one that can be seen on TV and the only way to see the British version is on DVD. However once again to get the DVD you have to pay $25-30 for volume one or $150 for the entire series because the website didn't offer the original British version. (Let's pretend the British and American version have the same number of episodes)

Wouldn't most of these problems have been solved if you had an option to view either the British version or the American version from the start online for a small fee?

So I once again ask, why should I have to invest so much money just to check out a series in it's original language? Couldn't the anime industry come up with a way to release anime on an episode by episode basis online in the best quality possible and as fast as possible with language options just like fansubs do? Obviously it would take a little more time because of licensing but now that you can dowbload fansubs in HD quality, there's going to be little to redeem your purchase when HD becomes the standard.


Have you read...or even skimmed the last few pages?

BOST TV

http://bosttv.com/

Anyway, the complaint is not people who DL anime and then buy DVD's, the complaint is people who DL anime, like the series and make copies of the downloads and give those to their mates who also like the show but just don't feel like buying the DVD's.

It seems that the majority of fans watch a show, like it and DON'T buy the DVD's. Whether YOU do this or not is irrelevant. As was stated in an easy to find interview on ANN itself if the sales of a massive online hit like Haruhi had been 1/3 of the people of DL'ed then the series would have been a big success, as the series is NOT a success from the American markets point of view LESS than 1/3 of the people who DL'ed the series bought the DVD's.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:01 pm Reply with quote
1/3 is an unrealistic goal however. Completely unrealistic. You'd never get those kinds of numbers from broadcast TV purchases. Yes I'm aware that advertising fronts the costs of production. Everyone here is aware of that. The issue is the difference to end-users. To end users anime is a very expensive proposition. To not recognize that is to fail. To not make alternatives that are reasonable is to self-fulfill prophecies of failure. The industry needs something that is based on a subscription model in the near future with a reasonable amount of content that people actually want to watch. The reason they need that is that they can never get 1/3 of people who are willing to download for free to pay. When people even think that way they are already on the wrong track. They are completely out of the loop of understanding how the common person watches TV. Most people 1) only want to watch a show once and 2) have no interest in paying for it.

You might be able to get those people to pay a fee for a service if it had what they wanted to see and was easy to use, but you can never get most of them to even try these pay per episode schemes. You say you aren't talking to those of us who download and buy. I understand that, but the people you are talking about are not ever going to listen to you. The industry has to meet them where they are, not try and force them to be where the industry is. Even if fansubs were eliminated tomorrow what you'd see is a huge pool of people who'd move on to something else.
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hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 1312
Location: England. Robin is so Cute!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:26 pm Reply with quote
A question that needs looking into is this:-

What kind of money would a company realistically see with a subscription fee? Would the increase in users of the service be so much higher as to cover the loss of income per ep? (say what you will about what you think and want, few companies seem willing to try this without the numbers to back it up).

Obviously the next point is to probably raise adverts as a further source of revenue. Who advertises on anime sites? Are those companies part of the anime industry by any chance? Is the revenue one company makes from those adverts actually improving the health of the industry? It shouldn't take a student of management to see the problem here.

Until the companies willing to use online distribution can get some wealth, support and thus some real buying/pressure power you can't expect them to come up with a subscription method just yet. If too many people hold out until the companies come out with what they want there likely wont be many companies out there. Thus you have to support those who are trying, maybe not with your money (though I will be) but with your presence and support. Make comments on BOSTS forums, they have a small forum community and Aaron (the company president) reads and replies to posts on the forums feedback pages with a fair bit of regularity, this way your views are visibly reaching the industry...even if it is just a small, fledgling company inside the industry.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:00 pm Reply with quote
Well, as I was saying before I personally am willing to try this out and use it. But I just have my doubts about other people. I hope I'm wrong about it but I can't see how. While I buy a lot of anime dvds now it wasn't that long ago that I was one of the people who didn't buy anything. It seemed ridiculous because of my income, etc. It took awhile and me making more money for it to seem less so. So while I'm willing to do it now, I think about the past and I'm really not so sure I'd try it. So we'll have to see.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:40 pm Reply with quote
I was just wondering after reading that article about how NBC is having to refunbd money to it's customers for lack of guaranteed ratings that we may be seeing a shift in tv from what we know to an on demand situation.
And as I sat watching some History Channel show on Star Trek technology where it mentioned some guy had embedded a chil in his arm which allowed him to use the internet ot move a robot arm, I was rememnded all these little idiots out there that envision the wide free internet really don't know what they're talking about.

The world that existed when I was 8 (1968) is so different from what my child knew when she was 8 (1998) & so different from now. Hardly anyone was on the net, now so many are, though so many still aren't.

But that Star Trek chip thing reminded me of some statement I read that the PS 5 would be a chip implanted in one's head to allow one to virtually live thru the game one was playing. I've been joking with my teen the next step for cell phones is implanted in the heads of these idiots that can't move without being on one. It has to be next.

So you sit here & envision you P2P networks as unstoppable. Yeah, right. Mowhawk is right. 20 yrs from now there is no way to even begin to imagine where the internet will be-maybe it will be chips in out heads. It's mindboggling to figure it out. And as the internet advances even entertainment as we know it might change. Maybe movie theaters & tv will be obsolite.

As for all you people drooling over the immenent demise of the American anime industry, what do you do when the anime industry in Japan collapses because there's no money in it? They lose the money from licensing their titles around the world to your totally free P2P networks. All that's left is what sells to select fans in Japan if that.

And whoever was bitching about the western market hiring a name VA to be in a title--WHAT DO THEY DO IN JAPAN?
1)-go cheap-all newbs
2)-common-hire one or 2 vets with the idea the nebs will watch & learn from the vets.
3)-go with vets who know what they're doing. On the Area 88 interviews the director was amazed hiring vets=fewer re-takes. The vets were able to plow thru the script. The re-takes were usually thanks to newbs flubbing lines.
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:21 am Reply with quote
hentai4me wrote:


Have you read...or even skimmed the last few pages?

BOST TV



I checked it out. BOST TV has _three_ series:
- Keitai Shoujo
- Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora: Looking Up at the Half-Moon
- Ballad of a Shinigami: momo the girl god of death

Anyway they could not stream any show licensed in the US legally. That's why only an industry wide association could mount a site with a chance of becoming a concurrent to fansubs.

But human nature dictates they won't do it because
1) that means hard work
2) they would suspect each other to try to push the rest of the industry out of business by seizing control of the site once it gets popular
3) they will try to do exactly that

So I had to realize a site like that just won't work only in my dreams. Am I right?

ps: I am kind enough to suppose you're not doing some kind of marketing here. Wink
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missing_soul



Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:09 am Reply with quote
Dear CCSYueh,

CCSYueh wrote:

...as I sat watching some History Channel show on Star Trek technology where it mentioned some guy had embedded a chil in his arm which allowed him to use the internet ot move a robot arm,
I was rememnded all these little idiots out there that envision the wide free internet really don't know what they're talking about...


CCSYueh wrote:

...But that Star Trek chip thing reminded me of some statement I read that the PS 5 would be a chip implanted in one's head to allow one to virtually live thru the game one was playing....


About chipheads. You probably read your share of cyberpunk novels, do you? Please, sit back and relax, Mr. Data would take care of the rest.

Human body after all is a construction witch does not allow you to fly in space and a very perishable commodity in hard radiation. Only idiots could imagine with their simple mind humans leaving this planet (do enjoy StarTrek).

Besides you obviously don't know a single thing about the risks involved to put objects in your body, especially objects directly linked to your nervous system at a system level (you speak of virtual reality put into your head? that's system level for me). Nor you know the number of chemicals you had to take daily to help these objects remain in your body.

Dreaming is one thing, writing novels is other, ignoring reality and calling people names based on your sheer stupidity is another thing again.

Oh, wait, the US army plans to put chips in the soldier's head! And NASA plans to send people to Mars.

I has to be wrong.
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ichido reichan



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:52 am Reply with quote
and japan is still not giving up anime for free eh?

we just have to do like illegal mexicans, jumping the border for free anime, Yeah you can be legal and thats just too much waste of money and time...or...

you can jump the border for free....

Screw Japan, as soon as Anime die out, I'll do with french Animation or the russian Animation series that is gaining popularity these days, Im sure there's a cool russian name for idiotic fans of such trend Razz
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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 795

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:32 pm Reply with quote
o_o; taking all the natural resources and then moving on to find the next best thing?

Heh.
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