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Curtis W.
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 94
Location: KCMO
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:55 pm |
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[quote="james438"] | Quote: |
As far as Google's Youtube, does that mean that people who go to google or Youtube and view episodes of Naruto or what not will receive subpoenas? |
I don't think it will go that far, but I do think that it will be a lot harder to watch said shows. Only time will tell. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:18 pm |
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| Xanas wrote: | | The company I work for might care about that, but my personal views are much different on that topic. If I were able, I'd like to work for a company who was pro-open source (like IBM or Redhat or Novell or Sun) and would let me contribute to open source projects. I think a company is only as good as how it treats it's employees and it's customers, and if the technology it develops is beneficial to more than themselves it'd be great if they would share it. That's just my personal view though and I know many others disagree. |
But that's your personal wordplay on the situation. Most would consider it theft.
Aren't MOST laws legislating morality? Murder, theft, rape, child molestation-aren't these all moral issues? Obviously the people doing these things consider their need to do them important enough to overlook laws. Trotting out the tired example of Prohibition is really getting sooo old. Drinking is something that has been going on as long as mankind has accessed fermented liquids. It is DEEEEEEEEPLY ingrained in most of society. Thinking they could abolish it was insanity.
However, look at smoking. Time was smoking was all over, yet now cities like El Cajon & Del Mar have enem contemplated laws making smoking on a public sidewalk illegal. Most restarants in California (SoCal at least) are pretty much smoke-free with the open air patios being the last refuge.
Can't legislate morality? Smoking, drinking? Not that different really except those of us who don't smoke don't really want to be around the air being exhaled by smokers so there's a little bit more sympathy towards the no-smoking crowd. You can drink a beer-won't give me lung cancer from what you're exhaling. Both my parents are non-smoking children of smokers & both have COPD.
| Xanas wrote: |
The thing is, anime isn't like software. Software is a utility that others can use and thus requires support and customer service which companies can sell. My software is useful to my teams and the people around me, and that's why they can pay me to make it, even if it was shared outside. Anime isn't useful in that way so companies aren't going to pay to develop it unless it can be sold in some form or fashion.
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No kidding.
It's art. Complaining it's not useful like software is like complaining you can't wear your underwear on your head like a hat--it's not made to protect your head from UV rays. It's like complaining you can't drink a steak with a straw (unless you run it thru a blender which isn't the way most restaurants bring it to you).
Anime is made to be enjoyed-make us laugh or cry or waste a half an hour. Maybe it's made to make us think. Maybe it's just supposed to look cool. Whatever.
Once you watch it you have consumed it. The person who made it deserves to be paid. They already were? Not for what you saw. If a book sells 100,000 copies, the author often gets less than if it sells 2 million copies. |
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Xanas
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:29 pm |
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Books aren't really comparable at this point because most people still prefer reading from the physical object. When people prefer reading from electronic devices it'll be more comparable at that point.
It is true that they make more from 2 million in sales than 100,000, but then you could say the same of TV vs. dvd. IF everyone who watched TV shows bought all the dvds instead of watching them on TV the shows would make more money. Why don't they all force you to do this then? Because they can't, they know people don't make enough money to buy everything on DVD. This same reason is the reason that fansubs exist, and if they want to eliminate that then they should provide alternatives rather than going after it. But they could never expect those alternatives to give the same amount per person as dvd sales. People just don't have that much money to be spending on anime.
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But that's your personal wordplay on the situation. Most would consider it theft.
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Theft is just a word, the concept that I'm talking about is "taking something such that it can no longer be used or sold by the party from which it's taken." Insofar as they use the term theft for other things you might be right. But the way people use terms isn't the point.
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Aren't MOST laws legislating morality? Murder, theft, rape, child molestation-aren't these all moral issues?
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The word "personal" is important to the context here. What you refer to are all things that have clearly negative impacts on the victims of those crimes. I know you'd like to say this is true when people copy things but it's not accurate in every case. Tell me what damage I have done if I download something online and then buy it afterwards. Please explain why this is a damaging thing to do. Is it wrong for TV to exist without paying the companies 25$ per viewer for each 4 episodes (the model we use for anime dvds today)?
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Complaining it's not useful like software
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I wasn't complaining. That part of my post was because the situation he had given wasn't really comparable, so I had changed it to something that was more similar. However, despite the similarity I was going on about the differences between software and anime to point out why it's not possible to have the system be completely free. In other words, I do agree with both of you when you say that in order for authors to be paid consumers need to buy anime. I want to make it clear for the 1000th time that I follow this myself and buy a fair amount of anime. This is not a complaint, only truth. Whatever you may think of my views it is simply irrational to speak to me as though I don't want to support anime with purchases at all. If you think I'm lying about buying things then I'll happily find whatever means you prefer to prove it to you. |
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cloud1989
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:52 pm |
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The whole part of streaming enforcement seems like a really bad idea. If you have computers and internet in your home and is the owner of the internet connection, it is somewhat easy to prevent illegal file sharing on your connection, because you have to have the software installed and actually find and download the files, but when it comes to streaming that is almost impossible to enforce, You can make your kids and family not use p2p programs and such, but to prevent someone from just watching something is next to impossible to do unless you sit at the computer and watch everything everyone does at all times.
But if we look at America, streaming is illegal here, we have some of the harshest copywrite laws and the harshest enforcement companies it the world, even still no one has ever be sued for watching something, the mpaa has shut down sites, owners of such sites has been arrested, I believe a uploader was prosecuted once for some TV show, but no regular user has ever been attacked despite the fact they could be. If you look at the whole picture down loaders in general have almost never been attacked, all RIAA lawsuits have been for people file sharing, supposedly there evidence comes for what they find in a shared folder. People have only be arrested or sued for movies when the download off file sharing programs, bit torrent( which clearly require both uploading and downloading), or operate streaming, download sites, there is no evidence of people who truly just download ever being attacked. My guess would be this law is to simply make sites responsible for more illegal usage since few upload and many watch, and court cases against such sites would be easier to win. |
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tygerchickchibi
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 795
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:00 pm |
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 I agree, delete the source, not the downloader...
Unless the downloader is the source of the uploading, but...
There are billions of people on this earth. I want to see how they can actually get this law enforced realistically. That's all I'm saying. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:30 pm |
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| Xanas wrote: |
It is true that they make more from 2 million in sales than 100,000, but then you could say the same of TV vs. dvd. IF everyone who watched TV shows bought all the dvds instead of watching them on TV the shows would make more money. |
No, the dvd sales are icing on the cake. Syndication is where the moola's at--selling the show to 100 different markets in 50 different states. Even the home market for movies is icing-the bucks are expected to be made back at the box office as well as tv rights(pay-per-view, premium channels) The bonus of the home market is whether there's lasting power (Disney cycling their animated films what-every 7 yrs. About every 7 yrs there should be a fresh batch of kids who maybe have never seen it-new parents wanting to share something they loved with their babies)
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The word "personal" is important to the context here. What you refer to are all things that have clearly negative impacts on the victims of those crimes. I know you'd like to say this is true when people copy things but it's not accurate in every case. Tell me what damage I have done if I download something online and then buy it afterwards. Please explain why this is a damaging thing to do. |
But you aren't buying EVERY title, are you? It's like that bulk candy in the stores where they put out a container to put a nickel in if you take one-how many people are doing it?
I HAVE explained. You choose not to accept the explaination.
Most people don't eat clothes, they wear them.
Most people don't wear food to go to work.
Certain things are consumed in certain ways.
You refuse to accept the way one consumes anime is to watch it.
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Is it wrong for TV to exist without paying the companies 25$ per viewer for each 4 episodes (the model we use for anime dvds today)?
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But the difference is you're referring to dvds where the deal has been worked out. The deal has been cut & the money is paid at the prescribed rate & goes to the parties that own that title. The anime you're downloading hasn't had that deal worked out, thus you are consuming/stealing art the artist hasn't agreed can be shown in your area.
Look at special museum tours--ever bother going? The ones where they charge extra money above & beyond the normal amount to see? You may figure your $6 that lets you in to the museum should cover, but it doesn't. If you sneak in a back door to view that exhibit, what harm have you done beyond viewing something the owners didn't intend you to see? It's the same as downloading anime, right? You haven't damaged the exhibit, but you also didn't pay the owner their money. |
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Cetus-kun
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:40 pm |
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Personally I’m against fansubs for the most part. Elitism annoys me; people look for any excuse not to buy the commercial release. At the same time however I can understand why people do not always want to buy the DVD’s. It can be expensive to buy every anime you want to watch (though some is available on TV).
The way I see it we are in a transition period right now and I’m happy to see change. I hope more anime companies follow the same business model as ADV with the Anime Network Streaming Service. In the past the only way to see a new anime from Japan without waiting years for it to be released on DVD was to seek out fansubs, but that seems to be changing. I for one embrace the change.
Say for example someone watches a whole series fansubbed and the series is licensed and brought over. Does the person buy the series and watch it again? They might if they found it really entertaining, but would they invest the time and money to watch it again? Some would but others wouldn’t. This has always been the problem. With the new model a person does not have to seek out the DVD to see a series for the first time and even if they don’t buy the company still gets money back through the commercials. Even if the series was not brought over to the US at the exact same time as the Japanese airing I love this idea. I’m actually waiting on checking out most of the unlicensed shows from recent seasons because I’d rather get them from ADV (or another anime company) through this new service.
For the shows I do follow fansubbed (and have in the past) I only continue watching a show after licensing if I intend to buy (and in almost all cases except for Bleach I have dropped a series the moment it was licensed). I’m probably one of the few people who dropped Death Note back when episode 12 aired and decided to wait for the DVD’s.
If the companies really want to shutdown fansubs I feel they should be going after the people doing the subbing or uploading the videos to Youtube. By this logic couldn't they prosecute a person for watching an amv, or an opening or ending theme on Youtube? What about those Youtube Poop videos that sometimes use clips from anime? The parody video Breath Note (anyone remember it?) was removed from Youtube through a request from the Japanese copyright holders. Should anyone who watched that video also be prosecuted?
Eventually I'd like to see fansubs get replaced by ad-supported services like the Anime Network's one, but I don't think going after the people watching fansubs is going to help. If an alternative is provided not everyone is going to make use of it, but if enough people start gravitating away from fansubs to new legal streaming services like the Anime Network the overall acceptability of fansubs will probably change and that can only mean more business for the anime industry.
Last edited by Cetus-kun on Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dargonxtc
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4153
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm |
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| Xanas wrote: | | If you were to say "I gained access to a database project you created and copied it for use at home or for use of another finance company" I think it'd be a more direct comparison. |
My point was, that I copied something in which you intimately worked on, and undoubtably had value to you. Then created a situation in which the copy held all the value and the original had none(for once it was in the bosses hands there was no need for an original). Does this sound familiar?
As for the situation you descibed, not only would you be taking someones personal hard work, but ultimately taking the company's property and possible trade secrets, undermining them while giving competition an unfair advantage. So it is basically the same thing as what I said except you would be hurting the individual and the company as a whole.
I don't know, it just sounds like you think this etheral information might have some sort of value, and that that value hinges on whom to and from, where and the time this etheral information is released. But I know you would never say that, so I must misunderstand.
| Quote: | | If I were able, I'd like to work for a company who was pro-open source (like IBM or Redhat or Novell or Sun) and would let me contribute to open source projects. |
Do they open up every single one of there projects up to the public, at any and every stage? Or do they only have a select few in which they allow complete open manipulation?
| Quote: | | I think a company is only as good as how it treats it's employees and it's customers |
I agree.
| Quote: | | and if the technology it develops is beneficial to more than themselves it'd be great if they would share it. |
I am sure anyone who needs it can buy it at a fair price. If the price isn't fair then competitors get the sale.
| Quote: | | Anime isn't useful in that way so companies aren't going to pay to develop it unless it can be sold in some form or fashion. |
Somewhat true. People used to value entertainment as useful for the soul, and the company's were banking that customers would see the value in that and support accordingly. Nowdays, the entertainment that is anime, is worthless to the people whom supposedly love it. Or as Zalis found out, worth 1¢ 
| Quote: | | Anyway, basically I am saying that companies need to find as many avenues as possible to create support for themselves |
You and I are in 100% agreement on this.
| Quote: | | and on the consumer side people should support anime insofar as they are capable and interested in it. |
Not so much on this though. You say they should support this. If they should do something like support it... why is wrong to expect them too. I am going to stop there on this point as I am pretty sure we have been through this before, and I don't want to start a circle in which we already know that we disagree.
| Quote: | | I want to make it clear for the 1000th time that I follow this myself and buy a fair amount of anime. This is not a complaint, only truth. Whatever you may think of my views it is simply irrational to speak to me as though I don't want to support anime with purchases at all. If you think I'm lying about buying things then I'll happily find whatever means you prefer to prove it to you. |
Just to be clear I don't think I ever claimed such a thing of you personally, just your arguments. Although not in this thread, I may have been harsh in words towards your views. But I hope they never transcended personally, if they did I apologize. In fact Xanas, if we are to believe everything you say about your buying habits(which I do), I can safely say that you are not the problem at all. If more people bought anime like you, then there would be no problem. It wouldn't matter that anime was freely distributed as long as those people were semi-buying the shows. And I would most likely be on your side, because with a healthy industry, I am of the mindset of "if it's not broken don't fix it". But there are people out there that are nothing but pure unashamed leaches. And there are a bunch of them. And they are constantly recruiting people to there "take what I want now and damn the consequences" point of view. And remarkably you often come off as their most valiant apologist. Defending what they do as some sort of quasi-right. And anytime anyone, government or corporate body says they are going to try something to stop, or at least severely impede the flow of free distibution of their product, you scream the sky is falling.
You have to understand how frustrating that is. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:57 am |
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| CCSYueh wrote: |
I HAVE explained. You choose not to accept the explaination.
Most people don't eat clothes, they wear them.
Most people don't wear food to go to work.
Certain things are consumed in certain ways.
You refuse to accept the way one consumes anime is to watch it.
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I don't think its entirely clear whether or not Xanas' thinks that about anime consumption, but in any event I think his real problem is his overlooking of the ethics of the situation, which you seems to be the direction you're taking as well.
| CCSYueh wrote: |
Look at special museum tours--ever bother going? The ones where they charge extra money above & beyond the normal amount to see? You may figure your $6 that lets you in to the museum should cover, but it doesn't. If you sneak in a back door to view that exhibit, what harm have you done beyond viewing something the owners didn't intend you to see? It's the same as downloading anime, right? You haven't damaged the exhibit, but you also didn't pay the owner their money. |
Exactly; although its worth mentioning that Xanas could be a psychopath, in which case he would not be able to appreciate the benefits of morality.
Anyone who thinks that the internet can be tamed at this point has their head in the sand. If the US govt. can't stop its people from shooting each other and smoking dope, how are they supposed to stop them from downloading? Legislation does not equate control. Manipulation does, and that is what criminals specialize in.
At least this is an issue now, so however slowly things may be progressing, we're still getting somewhere. |
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britannicamoore
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Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2354
Location: Detroit, MI. Or should I say Mt. Pleasant, MI? I live in a hand.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:37 am |
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here we go again.
I know a lot of people who download movies. I recently got to sit and talk with one guy at school for awhile, his ideas are basically on par with anime fans.
Something to the tune of: I want to see the movies fast, but I don't have the time nor the funds to go see every one. As he passed me a download of Rush Hour 3.
I'm thinking that them trying to ban downloads is well... Even if you think everyone who downloads is theiving leech you're better off not biting the hand who feeds you occasinally. They could stop bringing you bread crumbs altogether.
But the real question is: I wonder how ANN will do the season previews we enjoy every year?
Another question: I do't claim to know anything about japanese tv. But I remember reading some articles that they don't show reruns in Japan. Or its very rare. If this is the case, maybe they could stop (some) uploading by showing a few reruns.
But really, the fact that they're sitting somewhere being paid to talk about something that won't work? It's a big waste of money. The fact that they can't even stop a person on youtube who uploads anime (won't say which) but spells the name wrong and has every episode of the show to date? Who ends up int he top views everytime the show is fansubbed?
Me thinks that they're wasting their time and others peoples money.
Good luck enforcing this one. There are so many sites that stream videos stopping youtube would be one of thousands. And youtube doesn't even have the best quality.
I hope the few hundred dollars they get back helps fund their probably million dollar operation.  |
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Xanas
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:53 am |
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| CCSYueh wrote: |
But you aren't buying EVERY title, are you? |
No I am not, but only because I am incapable of doing this. I can prove that too if you like. Want a copy of my budget? Honestly, I'll give you one. I project my spending months in advance and exactly what I'm going to buy. My savings is very little and I spend little disposable income on anything else. Despite the fact I spend as much time playing games as I do watching anime, I spend much more on anime than the other way around.
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But the difference is you're referring to dvds where the deal has been worked out. The deal has been cut & the money is paid at the prescribed rate & goes to the parties that own that title. The anime you're downloading hasn't had that deal worked out, thus you are consuming/stealing art the artist hasn't agreed can be shown in your area.
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I agree with you hear insofar as I accept that I'm doing something without a "deal." The reason? Unlike you I don't accept that artists have an absolute right to require me to make a deal with them. Copyright is not absolute. It's a government construct that is only as valuable as it's benefit to society. It's not really possible for us to see eye-to-eye on this one because we see the core part of this so much differently. I don't agree with these rights and you do. |
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Xanas
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:42 am |
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| Dargonxtc wrote: |
My point was, that I copied something in which you intimately worked on, and undoubtably had value to you. Then created a situation in which the copy held all the value and the original had none(for once it was in the bosses hands there was no need for an original). Does this sound familiar?
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When I copy something illegally I don't make the original have no value. Your point is entirely invalid because it's based on a false premise . If illegal copying made these things worthless then you'd not buy them either. And I certainly wouldn't buy them since I condone that activity (to some extent).
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As for the situation you descibed, not only would you be taking someones personal hard work, but ultimately taking the company's property and possible trade secrets, undermining them while giving competition an unfair advantage. So it is basically the same thing as what I said except you would be hurting the individual and the company as a whole.
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"Unfair" advantage? Why is it unfair? Because they didn't spend money employing me? Everything that exists in this day and age is ultimately based off the work of people that came before. Is it unfair that this is true? I'm sorry but I just don't follow this. Anyway I said I'd prefer that the company be fine with making it open source and sharing it freely. There are companies that do this, and I think it's wrong to say they are giving "unfair" advantage to their competitors. No, instead, they are simply leveling the playing field and encouraging competition in areas other than technology or software.
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I don't know, it just sounds like you think this etheral information might have some sort of value, and that that value hinges on whom to and from, where and the time this etheral information is released. But I know you would never say that, so I must misunderstand.
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I think ethereal things have variable value, depending on the situation. This is shown by my previous example, where I referenced the fact that TV broadcasters aren't exactly paying 25$ per 4 episodes per viewer. As for the value being dependent on who created the ethereal thing, I'd disagree with that. I think you believed this because I said it was wrong to lie about creating something you did not. The reason that this is wrong in my view is not because it violates my "ownership." It violates the truth, and it is harmful to society to be paying the wrong people for work that others have done. The reason for that is obvious, it does not allow the work to continue when one supports the non-responsible group. That's the reason I have a problem with commercial bootlegging.
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Do they open up every single one of there projects up to the public, at any and every stage? Or do they only have a select few in which they allow complete open manipulation?
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Some tools like my own are tailored for very specific purposes and aren't really useful to share. There is that and the fact that they may not fully agree with the principles I'm referring to. That said I think they are far closer to being right about things than most other corporations out there, and I respect most of them because of that.
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I am sure anyone who needs it can buy it at a fair price. If the price isn't fair then competitors get the sale.
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Depends on how you define "anyone who needs it." Many who would want to learn how to use it for educational purposes cannot afford it. Sometimes people don't have money for the college courses and such to get the cheaper versions. If you are talking about businesses then I think you are probably right. Anyway, I support open source software for pretty much everything. The only exception I'd make would be gaming software, since it's similar to anime. But even that I think can sometimes benefit from open source (I very much support ID software and John Carmack because of their re-releasing source under the GPL after a few years).
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Not so much on this though. You say they should support this. If they should do something like support it... why is wrong to expect them too. |
It's not wrong to expect them to. It's just a matter of how much I think is right to expect them to support it. If the companies don't make effort to bring something they are interested in buying at all, I can understand why people don't try to support them. On the other hand, I do wish that people would buy some DVDs and not buy nothing out of protest. I think it is right to question people about that and I do this. I have people that I have requested buy anime because they watched it for free and I think it's the right thing to do
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But there are people out there that are nothing but pure unashamed leaches. And there are a bunch of them. And they are constantly recruiting people to there "take what I want now and damn the consequences" point of view. And remarkably you often come off as their most valiant apologist. Defending what they do as some sort of quasi-right. And anytime anyone, government or corporate body says they are going to try something to stop, or at least severely impede the flow of free distibution of their product, you scream the sky is falling.
You have to understand how frustrating that is. |
I understand what you are saying. Please know that I come out that way here because it's on balance to the people here who I think generally are too far in the other direction. I don't desire to create frustration just to do it. I'll agree with anyone who says that those who are just leaches should change what they are doing. This being said, I honestly believe most leaches are that way because they don't really have anything in the first place.
I think if illegal copying were to be eliminated tomorrow by a magical event you'd see a slight reallocation of income but not a big one. And that's all that would happen. Most people who have disposable income to be spending are going to spend it on what they like, and in the order that they like it. Why would they do otherwise? I can't think of a reason, leaches or not. They'd have to be more than leaches but incredible fools to deny supporting what they like. But I suppose it's entirely possible that a lot of people are really that dumb. That thought does sadden me a great deal.
I think the societal costs (especially the potential ones) far outweigh the costs of just letting this be. I also think that trying to make copyright more powerful and giving the corporations more authority is a bad thing, because I believe they are more likely to use that power in order to increase profits in ways that are not good for customers. I look at the DMCA and I see that I have to use illegal software (VLC, etc) in order to just play a DVD in my OS of choice. And that's just the tip of the iceberg compared to where some would like these laws to go. |
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tygerchickchibi
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 795
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:32 pm |
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| britannicamoore wrote: | here we go again.
I know a lot of people who download movies. I recently got to sit and talk with one guy at school for awhile, his ideas are basically on par with anime fans.
Something to the tune of: I want to see the movies fast, but I don't have the time nor the funds to go see every one. As he passed me a download of Rush Hour 3.
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Aw, that's no fun.
I love to go out to see a movie in a theatre when it's released... ;
Like...AVP-R. There's no way I'm going to sit at home with a bootleg DVD. Meh...it's fun to watch it with a crowd.
 blah, things have changed so much, but then again, I know they've always offered movie releases in the comfort of other's homes (like Pay Per View, or in Hotels too).
*slowly moves away to get back on topic.* |
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Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3857
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:58 pm |
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| Xanas, you need to breath into a bag awhile mate , your hyperventilating about this. It's not 1984, or Brazil. |
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Xanas
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:11 pm |
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| I really don't feel that I'm over-reacting. I think we are going the wrong direction, and as I pointed out the DMCA already disallows things that affect me personally that there is nothing wrong with. The fact that future laws will go further is not a good thing. |
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