Forum - View topic

Hey, Answerman! [2008-01-04]

I didn't say the manga artists necessarily work harder - but I do indicate that they do care about their characters more... and my proof really is based on the quality of the final product.

Frankly, they don't have time to care... there is too much work to be done to cover everything needed... time is of the essence which is why a week by week series suffers more than an anime movie or OVA.

As far as what "proof" I have otherwise? Since "care" is an abstract idea, you can only attempt to come to a conclusion based on the finished product.

My argument is more about derivative works, so movies and OVA's only hold so much relevance.

I've seen a large number of doujinshi - and often times, I've seen where the artistry was exceptional, but they lacked the storytelling ability... or really didn't understand the character. In fact, I can't recall a single doujinshi that I felt matched up to the original - my experience of doujinshi derived from original works places characters in non story situations, frequently imaginative, sometimes a good quality product...

I'm also still saying that the original is better, and that the derivative product lacks the originals quality and pales in comparison to it.

I'm also allowing that there are exceptions to this, but they are "exceptions."

So if I'm allowing for these exceptions, which I have from the very beginning, why are you still arguing against this - unless you happen to think that the anime product is almost always better than the manga for different reasons than I stated? What is the point that you are trying to argue here?

I am saying the original is better because it is more focused and consistent, is less time pressued (because I will state that 15 pages of manga is less work than animating a half hour episode), and fewer hands are "spoiling the broth."

dōjinshi seem amaturish because they are made by amaturs who have neither the artistic skill nor the story telling ability of actual manga artists.

How often a writer goes back to change their work is irrelevant. Most of the time, author's don't have that option, after all (how do you change something that's already been published?).

ikillchicken wrote:

dōjinshi seem amaturish because they are made by amaturs who have neither the artistic skill nor the story telling ability of actual manga artists.

Incorrect. Many commercial manga artists and illustrators continue selling dōjinshi, as those materials are not restricted by the publishing companies and can be very experimental.

While I'm not taking sides in the debate between you two and Godaistudios, I suggest you two should really learn more about the production of commercial manga.

By all means if there is something you think I am incorrect on let me know.

I am open to being corrected especially by someone like you who clearly knows a lot. However I dislike being told I need to learn more about manga without you really explaining yourself.

Quote:

I didn't say the manga artists necessarily work harder - but I do indicate that they do care about their characters more... and my proof really is based on the quality of the final product.

"Manga is better because the artists care more which is proven by the fact that Manga is better."

They call that circular logic.

Quote:

Frankly, they don't have time to care... there is too much work to be done to cover everything needed... time is of the essence which is why a week by week series suffers more than an anime movie or OVA. As far as what "proof" I have otherwise? Since "care" is an abstract idea, you can only attempt to come to a conclusion based on the finished product.

More circular logic. What basis do you have for saying that Manga artists don't suffer the exact same problems? Anything other than that it must be so because the Manga is better?

Quote:

My argument is more about derivative works, so movies and OVA's only hold so much relevance.

Maybe some are original works but I would still guess that the majority of Movies are derivative works.

Quote:

I've seen a large number of doujinshi - and often times, I've seen where the artistry was exceptional, but they lacked the storytelling ability... or really didn't understand the character. In fact, I can't recall a single doujinshi that I felt matched up to the original - my experience of doujinshi derived from original works places characters in non story situations, frequently imaginative, sometimes a good quality product...

But again, you assume that it is because it is a derivative work, not because they lack the story telling ability. If they had that ability they would probably be writing something original instead of some fanwank spinoff/sidestory doujinshi. It is not fair to try to compare a bunch of fanfiction to a professional adaptation.

Quote:

I'm also still saying that the original is better, and that the derivative product lacks the originals quality and pales in comparison to it. I'm also allowing that there are exceptions to this, but they are "exceptions." So if I'm allowing for these exceptions, which I have from the very beginning, why are you still arguing against this - unless you happen to think that the anime product is almost always better than the manga for different reasons than I stated? What is the point that you are trying to argue here? I am saying the original is better because it is more focused and consistent, is less time pressued (because I will state that 15 pages of manga is less work than animating a half hour episode), and fewer hands are "spoiling the broth."

I bolded the points I disagree on. No I don't think anime is better the majority of the time. I think it is better about the same amount as the manga and the majority of the time they are about the same. By no means though is it some exception when the Manga isn't better.

I disagree that time constraints hurt anime any more than they do manga. Sure there is more to do but there is also a ton of people to do all the little things. When you put it in a per person comparison it wouldn't suprise me at all if the manga artist has more to do. Also, while more people can "spoil the broth" more people also provide alternate perspectives. Moreover, you're comparing an original story to an adaptation. When you already have a story there is much less danger of "spoiling the broth".

hentai4me wrote:

CCSYueh wrote: A great big list of anime Perfect. This is; unless anyone else has something to counter it; pretty good proof that bandai does have a preference for sci fi titles.

Well, it ignores the fact that the real correspondence is that Bandai Entertainment is actually likely to license shows associated with another business unit of Namco Bandai (i.e. produced or distributed by Bandai Visual, made by Sunrise or shown on the Bandai Channel in Japan - @ 80% of their catalog I think). If Sunrise makes a mecha or space show then yes, Bandai may be very likely to pick it up here, but not enough more likely than any other company to assume anything before it happens (unless it is a Gundam show, in which case you can happily assume away). Conversely, the fact that Sunrise makes Gintama doesn't imply much about chances of Bandai Entertainment licensing it, but it doesn't say much about anyone else wanting it either.

The categorizations are also overly inclusive to accurately establish much. A tremendous percentage of anime has some sci-fi, futuristic or fantastic elements. For any of the major players who haven't indicated they are avoiding the genre, proving that they like to license sci-fi anime isn't going to be particularly difficult.

i would not make a good anime director. i would simply scream "STOP OVER-ACTING ALL YOUR ******* LINES!" over and over to the dub actors/actresses.

and i'd also be smacking the daylights out of them every time they added a pointless inflection to their line.

loka wrote:

i would not make a good anime director. i would simply scream "STOP OVER-ACTING ALL YOUR ******* LINES!" over and over to the dub actors/actresses. and i'd also be smacking the daylights out of them every time they added a pointless inflection to their line.

But if the dub actors stopped "overacting," then people would say "dub actors don't have any energy, they never put any action into anything." Besides, I think the question refers to directing on the Japanese side in actually creating anime, not English ADR directing. At least that's what I assume the question meant, since it's bundled with "writing anime."

"Manga is better because the artists care more which is proven by the quality of the finished product.

Now, since quality might be considered a subjective word, I'll reiterate what I said previously:

The "quality" I'm talking about, which are all observable and demonstratable are things such as consistent storytelling, pacing and characterization.

Tell you what - you go work in film for a little while - do work as a grip - see how much time you actually have where you run into things where they have to be "good enough."

I imagine working in a studio like this isn't much different. And I'd say that examples of visual gaffs that are caught (and fixed on DVD release later) is very much the reason behind this - You want to compare a couple of things? Look at the televised vs DVD release of Moon Phase - and it's obvious. "Good enough" exists there.

This is why there is a bigger time crunch with the anime than the manga. Again, what I just stated isn't simply a matter of opinion, but simple facts that you fail to see.

Another advantage that movies and OVA's also deal with less is they probably still have more time to work on them, allowing for a higher quality product - and I'm sure you and I will both agree that OVA's and movies are typically better quality (in part to a bigger budget) than a weekly anime series.

Even then, with all the money and time, see my first point regarding storytelling, characterization, pacing.

I'd argue that you can't "spoil the broth" as easily when you are doing an original production because there is no other "recipe" to compare it to.

Godaistudios wrote:

"Manga is better because the artists care more which is proven by the quality of the finished product. Now, since quality might be considered a subjective word, I'll reiterate what I said previously: The "quality" I'm talking about, which are all observable and demonstratable are things such as consistent storytelling, pacing and characterization.

You think these are better in the Manga. That is exactly what is up for debate here though.

Quote:

Tell you what - you go work in film for a little while - do work as a grip - see how much time you actually have where you run into things where they have to be "good enough." I imagine working in a studio like this isn't much different. And I'd say that examples of visual gaffs that are caught (and fixed on DVD release later) is very much the reason behind this - You want to compare a couple of things? Look at the televised vs DVD release of Moon Phase - and it's obvious. "Good enough" exists there.

I don't deny any of this but what you had yet to address was why you think this doesn't apply just as much to Manga. I see how that you somewhat have though.

Quote:

This is why there is a bigger time crunch with the anime than the manga. Again, what I just stated isn't simply a matter of opinion, but simple facts that you fail to see.

There may be a factual answer to this question but that doesn't mean it must be the answer you claim it is. Again, I don't deny that there are major time constraints with anime. However you seem to paint the picture almost as if Manga artists are doing this in their spare time or something. It's not like they just work to their own schedule. Do they not also still have to deal with tight deadlines which result in often doing things "good enough"?

Quote:

Another advantage that movies and OVA's also deal with less is they probably still have more time to work on them, allowing for a higher quality product - and I'm sure you and I will both agree that OVA's and movies are typically better quality (in part to a bigger budget) than a weekly anime series. Even then, with all the money and time, see my first point regarding storytelling, characterization, pacing.

So even when there aren't major time constraints it still is better?

If so the entire issue of time is irrelevant. It comes down to whether the Manga is better just because the artists "care more" and that then somehow results in a better final product.

I disagree with you on that and I don't really feel that you have offered any actual proof or reasoning to explain it. I guess unless you have something else to add we will have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

I'd argue that you can't "spoil the broth" as easily when you are doing an original production because there is no other "recipe" to compare it to.

I would say it was the opposite. If you already have a story you're basing it on, there is far, far less extrapolation and thus less difference. Regardless, I just think you're overstating the impact of this.