Forum - View topicNEWS: 3 Japanese Men Arrested, Charged with Uploading Anime
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| Fallout2man Posts: 271 Location: San Diego, CA |
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The reason these systems are proposed is based on current and projected trends. People are moving away from current media models and things the way they are now probably won't last. Plus you've got the whole technological arms race going on between the software developers and corporations. The only way to actually effectively stop all or even most peer to peer sharing would basically be to make running any non-approved internet capable software illegal and then have every single person's internet connection actively monitored with a "Send the cops" button if something bad was picked up. Well, that or scrapping the current internet and building a new one, but that's even less likely. Faced with these improbable scenarios we're forced to consider a way to keep the entire entertainment industry from crumbling entirely. (We still want our TV, movies, and anime so we can't just say screw it all either.) The tax solution so far seems to be one of the most effective ways to do it. Advertising could cover some revenue. However, as one of the other posters mentioned, it's losing it's clout with the triviality of editing software and ad skipping devices like tivo or firebox's adblock extension. You could probably get away with some advertising but not too much otherwise people would just put more effort into removing it, and locking down files with drm, as we've seen, doesn't work if there's enough incentive to break the file (and making it illegal to do so obviously hasn't been a big deterrant.)
So how would you propse we keep paying artists then without massive privacy invasion, crippling of the world's computers, or crippling the internet? We need something people might be more likely to actually adopt, and a tax seems to be the most workable solution we have now. |
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| samuelp Posts: 788 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Or, by your own argument, to transmit any video, audio, or other multimedia entertainment. Or, well, pretty much anything the internet is actually used for these days. Oh, did you know that the military has its own, separate "internet" that it uses now? Claiming that filesharing isn't part of the "original" purpose of the internet might be the stupidest and weakest argument I've ever heard against it
Wow, you sound really really bitter. If I were you I'd pipe down and let other people advocate your (perfectly valid) positions, because all this little tirade is going to do is make people more likely to download just to spite little whiny people like you who resort to calling the majority of american teenagers communists for doing something they don't even feel is wrong. They probably don't even know what "communist" means. |
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| ilikehotaznz Posts: 28 |
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I did not say that *I* download. As a matter of fact, I purchase my games, anime, and manga. I am against show-trials, invasions of privacy, and infringments of civil liberties. The internet was created to send data from one faraway place to another in a short period of time, without having to use limited resources. Whatever is sent over the internet, whether it be copyrighted or not is copied and transmitted from node to node, computer to computer until it arrives at it's final destination. The internet, is in essence, a gigantic copy machine. This has nothing to do with anime becoming popular. This is a solution to a problem that is widespread with any information that can potentially be turned into bits. These are the facts 1) It is becoming harder to encapsulate information and sell it because the economics of scarcity have gone away. 2) Artists have the right, and should be compensated for their work. The only way that I can see both realistically happening in the age of the internet, is to subsidise the taxpayers of the world. This isn't only an American endevour. You can go on about your free markets, but all that is irrelevent when a particular resource is unlimited. Scarcity is what makes different resources valuable, and that is the problem facing the entertainment industries. In plain and simple words, if you let the free market determine this outcome, the entertainment industries will die. I am not a communist, but I realize there is a time for government intervention. What would be economically detremental would be to do nothing, and let the industries die. I hate to say it, but if people are not willing to pay for their entertainment, the government should force them to pay. This isn't so much communism, as it is common sense. |
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| ilikehotaznz Posts: 28 |
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http://www.rufuspollock.org/ The copyright holders have bought our government, and as a result, copyright has been extended unto infinity. When congress and the senate write copyright laws, the last thing on their mind is to create an optimal copyright term in order to balance between profits and societal benefit in the public domain. Last edited by ilikehotaznz on Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Batman3777 Posts: 159 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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I did not say legal file sharing was not part of the original purpose for the internet, i said distributing PIRATED COPIES OF SOMEONES's COPYRIGHTED material was not part of the original design of the internet. And of course the military has its own internet now, we were talking about the original purpose of the internet, when someone earlier stated that piracy was what the internet was originally designed for. |
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| fighterholic Posts: 9194 |
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| Interesting article with more crackdowns on illegal Japanese activity. Haven't been hearing much about this kind of stuff here in the United States though. Japan is a bit of a smaller country so news travels much faster there. Why in the world would you want to upload a virus with something up onto the site, that I can't get. | ||||||||||||||||||
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| ilikehotaznz Posts: 28 |
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I didn't state that piracy was what the internet was originally designed for. I stated that the internet was originally concieved to be a sort-of copy machine. An infinite amount of copies of any digital information can be made, overriding the economics of scarcity. This is one of the situations where the free market fails. I don't want innocent people to be put on show trials, I don't want the entertainment industry to go out of business. This is a way to prevent that. You can't honestly tell me that the mp3 and the avi are the weapons of mass destruction of the 21st century. It doesn't need to be this way. If the government can spend 1.2 trillion dollars a year on a neverending war-- the government industrial military complex, you'de think they would be able give a few billion to compensate artists and rights holders. |
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| samuelp Posts: 788 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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I said his opinion was "valid", I didn't say it was "correct". Just like most opinions of the republican candidates. |
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| Fallout2man Posts: 271 Location: San Diego, CA |
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This in a way is exactly why it's impossible to stop it though. The way the internet is structured as a distributed computing network built to survive a nuclear war, and it's built to be usable for any purpose one can imagine since it treats all data the same. Not even China can totally control their internet, they're pretty good but they probably won't be able to once their population grows beyond a certain level of home computer users.
IP actually flies in the face of pure capitalism though. Since IP doesn't exist naturally. It's only created by government intervening in the market, which is decidedly not capitalistic but at times necessary and even desirable (OHSA, FDA, ETC.)
I pay taxes for a lot of government programs I'll never use. I'm not a woman for instance, but I pay taxes for programs that help single mothers with taking care of their children. I pay taxes that pay to send other people to college, or that fund research that may never directly benefit me in any tangible way. However we agree they have a net benefit to society and that's why these taxes and programs exist. We as a society band together to solve collective action problems. On the specific issue of downloads this simply seems to be the most workable solution we have. Why do I say this? Because if you charge per use or per download you'll just run into the same issue with people trying to build a technological solution to avoid paying, which is the problem we already are faced with. However if you make it an inescapable flat tax everyone has to pay, then there's no way to avoid it and then the artists can still get compensated. Is it really fair to absolutely everyone? No, but what else can we do that will actually work? You're not going to be able to really convince people it's wrong, and you're not going to be able to actually effectively outlaw it or even make it significantly difficult without spending a huge sum of money on monitoring software and violating all online privacy (since they can see everything you do, they'd have to be able to do that to check for infringement.)
Copyright is life plus seventy years for artists and I believe ninety years for corporations, patents are twenty years.
Why though? An idea isn't the same as a chair or a table. It doesn't actually exist. It only came to be by government meddling into the market. Now we did this for a good reason, because we wanted to promote more art and science. However you have to then look at it from the law's point of view and the intent of the law. The constitution explicitly states the purpose of IP law is to promote the arts and sciences. Therefore IP law needs to be properly balanced to promote the maximum number of new creative works. The ability to profit from those works and make money is not the primary goal but rather an effect of granting one control of their idea. So term lengths and rights granted need to be long enough and powerful enough a person can make back a decent investment in their work, but short enough and weak enough that the work can return to the public domain to encourage new works and so that people can't abuse the law to do things like say, squash dissenting opinion or other unfavorable commentary. Art isn't created from nothing, everyone builds on earlier creations, so a rich public domain needs to exist. Did you know that with a few rare exceptions, nothing made after around 1923 is in the public domain?
No, you're violating their temporary ability to make you pay them money for it. There's a difference between taking money and just not making any.
Just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong. Think in broader terms.
No, anime isn't doing well, which is a very good reason why we NEED to support these guys as best we can. None of us want our anime to dry up. This though is more of a reason we need alternative schemes, like the editorial written a while back said. It'd be nice to wish and hope people will change their ways, but it's not realistic. You can try but in the end, to survive you need to find a way to get people what they want while making money, and that right there is one of the cornerstones of capitalism. Maybe we won't need a tax, maybe ad revenue will still be viable. However there's no denying that the current system as it is, just won't make these guys the money they should be, that they need to be making. So what else can they honestly do that will actually work?
Again, be realistic. This isn't going to just go away no matter how much you wish it to. Why not focus on a practical solution that satisfies everyone or at least enough people to actually work? |
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| Xanas Posts: 1311 |
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| Hmm, somehow managed not to notice this thread lol. Anyhow, as I stated in the other thread my thinking is along the same lines. Some kind of tax or fee to adjust for inequalities is far preferable to the current system of enforcement & DRM. I don't necessarily believe that we do actually need this tax in there here and now, but at least it's a notion that could fix the current issues without the huge costs to consumers, society, and industry that presently exist.
DRM is a huge waste, it's an attempt to force "intellectual property" to act like real physical objects. It attempts to essentially violate natural law and does so to the chagrin of almost everyone. It will always be the desire of business to do as little as possible to make as much profit as possible. This is natural, but the current state of copyright law reinforces the problem rather than moderating it. |
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| Batman3777 Posts: 159 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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| So, if someone needs money to pay rent, eat, have health care, buy clothing and the like, they must do something that does not involve writing, painting, etc etc? I don't understand, if you can't live off of it, why do it, or at the very least, why make it public? You're basically saying all artists should be starving artists like the old days. Ego is great, but it doesn't pay rent.
There is a huge difference in paying for social welfare and paying for someone to download anime. We're talking about life versus fun. And you're talking to someone who thinks welfare is waaay to easy to get, incidently, so I know it is abused. But it's still necessary, and in some cases it still really is a matter of life and death. And I know that free market ecnomy doesnt work. You're talking to someone who believes furvantly in the Star Trek form of socialism. My problem is that people don't seem to want to work to change things, only break laws, or complain, or cluck their tongues and say lets add another tax. Too many people want to take the lazy way out instead of work to change things, and that is most frustrating. All people want to do is get as much as possible for as little as possible... some of the people here tow the free market line in a way, when they say I shouldnt have to pay for someone's creative content, because I have the ad-supported, subscription fee charged, highspeed internet service which allows me to download it for free because it can be like a copy machine of people's ideas... That's a double-standard. Do you have free highspeed internet access, too? Or do you pay for the fast connection, but draw the line at paying for DVDs. What do you decide you pay for and don't pay for? And another thing about taxes for this sort of thing... they have to be evenly split among all taxpayers, to be fair. So if people cannot currently afford to purchase the stuff legally, can they afford the tax? And if the tax goes world wide, does some poor soul in Darfur have to pay it so you can download anime? Or do we make exceptions and start jacking up the taxes for other people? Not fair any more, is it? What should people get paid for? If you ask me, I say nothing, but then also they should not get charged for anything... agreed? Who's with me? Seriously, wouldnt that be great? Take money out of the equation! Last edited by Batman3777 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| ilikehotaznz Posts: 28 |
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The reason it needs to be internationally implemented is so that for example, a Japanese studio will be compensated if an American consumes their works. Hollywood will be compensated if a Japanese person views a movie. etc. I don't expect countries like China and Russia to hop on board, but we will likely never be able to get them to pay anyway. |
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| ilikehotaznz Posts: 28 |
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As for taking money out of the equasion, brilliant but idealistic. I am a believing (however non-practicing) Christian. Whenever I ask myself, "I wonder what heaven is like," I always think of a place with infinite resources and infinite time. In that society, there will be no money. Unfortunately, because time and resources are scarce, money (or some form of trading) is required in this world. However, I don't think it is quite as important as most people make it. PS: That darfur comment was grasping for straws, and I ignored it. Of course darfur will not be a part of the next Doha Round, where legislation like this is likely to turn up. The countries that will participate are all highly developed. |
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| Batman3777 Posts: 159 Location: Down the Shore, NJ |
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Darfur was a hyperbolic example to try to introduce some perspective to the group, what with their constant struggle whilst we site her complaining about the costs of dvds.... kinda makes you think, doesn't it? That was the major reason why I said people should stop whining so much in one of my earlier posts... it's kind of stupid to hear about all dvd vs downloading nonsense this when there are people out there who don't even have a blanket to sleep under let alone a roof, or enough food to eat. That's why I might sound "bitter." Thank you for the bit of agreement though. I appreciated it. |
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| Fallout2man Posts: 271 Location: San Diego, CA |
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You're right, we need to find a way to make them some cash, so they can make more art. That's what this is about here, is figuring out how to best do that.
Well here's the thing though. You and I both agree artists should be able to charge money for their IP for a limited amount of time, right? So then we have to ask ourselves how we can solve the challenges we face in that. We can't stop people from downloading, it just won't work, so we have to go with the flow and find a new way of doing it. It's like how the movie studios adapted to the VCR back in the early days, they created the video rental industry, which has made them a ton of money. We need something new and revolutionary like that right now.
That's what the whole tax discussion is about. Do you have another idea? please tell us and let's talk about relative merits if you do. I honestly just don't see another solution.
Companies are the same way, that's why pure capitalism never works, if someone can get control they'll seize it and then use that leverage against people and competitors.
There's a distinct difference though in tangible and intangible things. When I get an internet connection I'm paying for that company to run a cable to my home or apartment and then paying to use their physical machines. If I don't pay I actually disrupt their service and they lose money because they have to pay for electricity and other resources to furnish my internet habits. If I use their service and don't pay, I actually cost them money, they suffer damages. Now with downloading a DVD it's very different. I've already paid for the connection and someone at the other end is offering to send a file or part of a file to me. Now, they're giving it to me for free. What's the illegal part here? They weren't authorized to give it to me because the law allows the copyright holder to charge a fee for their work. However, I didn't take or use anything belonging to that copyright holder. At the very worst they may have lost a potential sale, but that is not the same as costing them money. This is why the two are very different concepts. Then you have to factor in whether or not it even was a lost sale. There are many downloaders who never even would have bought the product if the free alternative weren't available, plus those who download and buy. These people have a net effect of zero on your bottom line.
The idea is to find the best compromise possible. Perhaps it could be called an internet tax and tacked on to the service fee on your connection? That'd be a little more fair to more people but still make it just as unavoidable and therefore effective. |
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