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bayoab
Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 501
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 am |
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| DmonHiro wrote: | Fair enough, that did not come out as I was wanting it to.
I will keep my complaints about the DVDs as they are valid, and no amount of bitching will change the fact that the releases are slow, the translations are sometimes WAY off, and that they do indeed look horible (not much can be done about that, it's the standard). |
Firstly, companies are by no means "slow". It is isn't like they sit on them for weeks once they get the materials or before they hit retail. They are pretty much going as fast as they can once they get the materials. You are comparing people who take stuff off the TV to people who have to work with DVD. (You cannot make a DVD in a single day.)
Also, the translations are way off and yet fansubs are always right, right? Think about that for a second and you should see the problem with that statement.
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The slow release dates, the dropping of shows in the middle, bad maketing decisions, licensing od cheap and stupid titles with not much fanbase, ABSURD prices (Bandai, I'm looking at you), have NOTHIG to do with it....right? 
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Dropping shows in the middle? That is the exception to the rule. Before Geneon fell out, maybe one series ever went unfinished per year in the entire industry. Right now, there is so much flux that nobody knows what is going on with companies like Viz.
The licensing of cheap titles is because of packaging and it happens in all forms of media licensing. If you want to get a really good show, you probably have to take two or three poor ones with it. This is how licensing works and it is cheaper than licensing all of them individually.
Also, Bandai Visual's prices aren't absurd. They are japanese prices. They are what the Japanese pay for DVDs and yet people complain about $30 MSRP as being expensive. This is what happens when a Japanese company is essentially taking Japanese releases and bringing them to the US market. |
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TokyoGetter
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 244
Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:09 am |
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| DmonHiro wrote: | Fair enough, that did not come out as I was wanting it to.
I will keep my complaints about the DVDs as they are valid, and no amount of bitching will change the fact that the releases are slow, the translations are sometimes WAY off, and that they do indeed look horible (not much can be done about that, it's the standard). |
I find that to be really subjective, and thus won't pro-offer a counter-argument. I have a much easier time buying DVDs (and even re-selling them if I dislike them!) on current release schedules than I did 15 years ago, although I maintain that until you see simultaneous world releases you will not assuage your marketbase. Several major studios in Japan are looking at that now. I also can't speak for the quality of every dvd manufactured, but most of mine look very nice projected onto my wall. Source material may be at fault there.
| DmonHiro wrote: | | Still, to claim that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the downloads is a lost sale is BS. That would mean that everyone who downloaded series X would have bought it if it was not downloadable. This has ALSO been proves as BS. |
That is nobody's argument, and if it were it would be a strawman argument and it cannot be proven true, untrue, or BS. But I will say that EVERY lost sale hurts any retailer. As a small retailer myself, I can assure you that I go to great lengths to protect my business concerns and make sure I generate steady sales.
| DmonHiro wrote: | | What REALLY annoyes me is people who claim that fansubs are THE ONLY AND TRUE cause of the demise of the US anime market. |
I can see your point.
| DmonHiro wrote: | | The slow release dates, the dropping of shows in the middle, bad maketing decisions, licensing od cheap and stupid titles with not much fanbase, ABSURD prices (Bandai, I'm looking at you), have NOTHIG to do with it....right? |
These are not issues that generate loss of revenue from them in terms of profit as concretely as people just not buying stuff.
At the end of the day, that's what causes businesses to fail, almost regardless of mismanagement, bad decisions, and other managerial hubris.
Too many people are just not buying enough stuff to keep things rolling.
Are there shortcomings in the US industry? Certainly. But as a fan of old, cheap, and stupid-looking titles as well as 'new-stuff-i-won't-get-to-watch-until-i-retire', I feel that I choose to vote with my dollar in terms of what I like and dislike. I can't play the fence master forever and then wonder why CPM is going out of business.
I think reaching out to these people is great, but at the end of the day we have to foster an attitude that supports the books, comics, film, animation, music, TV and art that we love. |
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DmonHiro
Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 395
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:11 am |
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1. Japanese prices work IN JAPAN! In Japan it is normal price. It is not a normal price ANYWHERE else. It is beyond foolish to belive that using the prices from Japan will work in the US.
However, let's look at Bandai's new licence True Tears and Shigofumi. Yes, very expensive from the US's perspective, but in this scenario, the price is fair. It is the same price used in Japan, at almost the same time. Yes, it probably won't sell well, but that does not change the fact that we are getting the same product at the same price. But, what about the absurd price of Galaxy Angel Rune? Or Gunbuster 2? What are the excuses for that?
2. I KNOW japanese, that's why I know when the subtitles are way off.
Do you know japanese? Or is you high-horse SO high that you feel there is no need?
Also, I agree that there are not enough purcheses, but you can't blame that on fansubs alone, even if it DOES influence the purcheses |
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MokonaModoki
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 417
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:30 am |
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| DmonHiro wrote: | | 2. I KNOW japanese, that's why I know when the subtitles are way off. |
I don't speak Japanese, but if you are fluent enough to make that sort of evaluation then it makes me a bit curious why translations would be such a huge factor in a purchase decision for you. |
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skaly
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:40 am |
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Another factor in sales that people seem to be leaving out of the discussion is the quality of the original program. Personally, I have been losing interest in the newer anime. There are a variety of reasons for this that are irrelevant to the discussion, but the quality of the original programs should also be addressed when looking at sales. Are the shows better or worse? Are there enough good shows?
I get the impression that there are only two or three real "hits" every year. Is that enough for an industry to thrive? |
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Cartoon Jay
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:43 am |
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Simultaneous releases would help the issue and probably cut down on fansubbers, but not piracy. The only way to curb piracy is cheap, digital delivery.
At some point, computers and televisions are going to be the same piece of hardware. Some combination of On Demand rental and YouTube-type service is going to replace television, and new, niche channels will become profitable.
Everybody relax... they'll figure it out eventually. Anime's not going anywhere. |
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Fallout2man
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 271
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:07 am |
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| Cartoon Jay wrote: | Simultaneous releases would help the issue and probably cut down on fansubbers, but not piracy. The only way to curb piracy is cheap, digital delivery.
At some point, computers and televisions are going to be the same piece of hardware. Some combination of On Demand rental and YouTube-type service is going to replace television, and new, niche channels will become profitable.
Everybody relax... they'll figure it out eventually. Anime's not going anywhere. |
That'll help but the big thing is free ad-supported content. You have to look at what you're selling. In this case it's mostly TV shows, some movies and OVAs. While you could conceivably get people to pay for movies and OVAs the market for TV shows has always been...well...TV. This is because most people watch a series once and that's that; DVD sales are the icing on the cake. So really what makes the most sense is setting up an online streaming service like The Anime Network's been doing, but one that actually has its technological back end working. -_-;; |
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DmonHiro
Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 395
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:19 am |
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| MokonaModoki wrote: | | DmonHiro wrote: | | 2. I KNOW japanese, that's why I know when the subtitles are way off. |
I don't speak Japanese, but if you are fluent enough to make that sort of evaluation then it makes me a bit curious why translations would be such a huge factor in a purchase decision for you. |
Because I'm a perfectionist. Pure and simple. I'm the kind of guy that likes all things in the right order, the right way, etc. Also, translations don't afect ME much since I mostly buy R2 |
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edzieba
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:30 am |
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| MokonaModoki wrote: | Did no one else find this significent?
| Quote: | | After the April 2008 television program schedules [in Japan] are laid out (*2), the drop in the number of animated programs will be clearly seen. In short, the Japanese animation business has fallen into a great crisis. |
In makes me wonder just how big a drop we will see in the April schedules, but it doesn't sound like cause to jump for joy. |
Hmmm... Two very big franchises (Macross and Code Geass) start airing in April. Maybe the drop in releases is simply because of this? Delaying a release to avoid going up against a big title is common in the videogame world, so it seems a likely explanation here. |
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Richard J.
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Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 2931
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:32 am |
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That top 10 figure strikes me as very interesting. I read it as meaning something to the effect of "these 10 people are better skilled than most, lets get them to work professionally because we can pay them amateur wages for expert work."
Well, if the remark about a drastic drop in animated series coming up is any indication, perhaps the fansubbers will finally be forced to admit that, yes, they are hurting things.
No, wait, it's really the EVIL CORPORATIONS! Yes, everyone knows that money is the real cause of all problems in this world! Why, if not for money and corporations, anime would be free and plentiful, and we'd all own Myoopis that poop candy.
This might be a step in the right direction though. Getting some of the "respected" fansubbers to work for the companies and perhaps bring in some cash might help things a little. Although I have this feeling that suddenly and inexplicably, their perceived quality of skill by fans will drop. (Because the professionals who often have Japanese input into what they are doing couldn't possibly be doing it right.) |
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teh*darkness
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 588
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:32 am |
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| samuelp wrote: | | houkoholic wrote: | | tygerchickchibi wrote: | o.o so, they're finally working with them.
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No they are not working with fansubbers and there are no plans to do so. Do not take an individual's yet-to-come-into-fruitation idea and personal opinion as the collective voice of the entire industry. Not to mention it is extremely difficult for one man to change, well, almost anything in Japan. I do not see it happening in the short term future so don't go parading yet. |
Hm, thinking about this a bit more deeply, I begin to see ulterior motives in some of the language. That line "They translate better than a pro!" is strange. I really doubt anyone with any knowledge would make such a blanket statement.
Plus, where in the world did this figure "10" come from?
I think that this entire part was designed as a way to convince the anime companies to actually try and deal with the problem. The 6 million figure, and the "pro level" translations, plus only 10 people to deal with... wow, that sounds easy to fix when you put it that way.
Compared to the realistic and well thought out opinion of sevakis, this "report" seems like pure propaganda towards the anime companies in Japan, with little concrete suggestions. |
I think what Mr. Kubo was referring to by "10 fansubbers" was specifically translators who do near, if not better than, professional jobs on the series they work on. If they were to hire them to do the subtitles on new anime series, to then be released within a day or two for online streaming, either ad-supported or pay service (per episode, per month) it could help fight the hold fansubbing has on the anime market, be it small, large or non-existant.
And while this would not stop fansubbing, this would remove most of the good translators from the community leaving only the speedsubbers and the "guesslation' groups. The problem with that scenario is that speedsubs already get the most downloads on a regular basis because they come out fast and usually reliably and anime downloaders (or streamers) don't seem to care about the quality or accurateness of the translation as long as the subtitles at least partially makes sense.
However, if they do set about doing something like this, it could help more than we anticipate, or it may do nothing. Only time will tell, but I for one would support it if it happened. |
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edzieba
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:49 am |
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| Quote: | | Firstly, companies are by no means "slow". It is isn't like they sit on them for weeks once they get the materials or before they hit retail. They are pretty much going as fast as they can once they get the materials. You are comparing people who take stuff off the TV to people who have to work with DVD. (You cannot make a DVD in a single day.) |
Companies are often INCREDIBLY slow. Whilst not a DVD, volume 8 of the Hellsing manga was released in english a FULL YEAR after the Japanese tankoubon release (and almost TWO YEARS after the previous english release, which were normally between every 2 and 6 months). Bear in mind that the tankoubon will contain at most some minor edits and a few omake compared the the individual chapter releases, so the delay from japanese release to english is even longer than that. And the non-translation work for a manga volume is far less than a DVD!
On another note, the 'every download is a lost sale' argument has been shown to be flawed many times in many different sectors of the entertainment industry. But more importantly, downloads specifically to save money in the minority. Most downloaders use fansubs as a substitute to watching a series on TV before a purchase (something that is not a factor in the japanese market). The poor sales of titles can often be attributed to those titles being terrible shows, which anyone who has actually watched them have no intention of wasting their money on. Basing your business model on tricking people into buying shows that they will not enjoy seems a pretty flawed model. |
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mike.motaku
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:13 am |
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Has no one figured out yet that fansubbers are never responsible for anything bad in the universe? Every anime company in Japan could go under and lay at least partial blame on the proliferation of fansubs and illegal digital downloading and fansubbers would still say, "No, unh-uh! You can't prove it!"
Waste of time. |
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testorschoice
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 465
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:13 am |
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| edzieba wrote: | | MokonaModoki wrote: | Did no one else find this significent?
| Quote: | | After the April 2008 television program schedules [in Japan] are laid out (*2), the drop in the number of animated programs will be clearly seen. In short, the Japanese animation business has fallen into a great crisis. |
In makes me wonder just how big a drop we will see in the April schedules, but it doesn't sound like cause to jump for joy. |
Hmmm... Two very big franchises (Macross and Code Geass) start airing in April. Maybe the drop in releases is simply because of this? Delaying a release to avoid going up against a big title is common in the videogame world, so it seems a likely explanation here. |
Two very big franchises usually start every April. That's normal. (Anyways, Macross and Code Geass, for all the overseas fandom, aren't in the top ten most popular current anime.) Delaying several release a week or two makes sense for the videogame industry, where the people aren't expected to buy several games at once. But that's not the case for Japanese television, with multiple non-subscription timeslots for anime. There aren't that few timeslots to fight over. Otherwise, you're implying that there will be a big bump in anime this summer and fall. Don't bet on it.
Kubo, who would know better than to mistake a supposed blip caused by two mecha franchises, is just commenting on the same drop that others in the industry have also noted. |
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Cartoon Jay
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:45 am |
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| Fallout2man wrote: | | Cartoon Jay wrote: | Simultaneous releases would help the issue and probably cut down on fansubbers, but not piracy. The only way to curb piracy is cheap, digital delivery.
At some point, computers and televisions are going to be the same piece of hardware. Some combination of On Demand rental and YouTube-type service is going to replace television, and new, niche channels will become profitable.
Everybody relax... they'll figure it out eventually. Anime's not going anywhere. |
That'll help but the big thing is free ad-supported content. You have to look at what you're selling. In this case it's mostly TV shows, some movies and OVAs. While you could conceivably get people to pay for movies and OVAs the market for TV shows has always been...well...TV. This is because most people watch a series once and that's that; DVD sales are the icing on the cake. So really what makes the most sense is setting up an online streaming service like The Anime Network's been doing, but one that actually has its technological back end working. -_-;; |
I couldn't agree more... someone needs to make it reliable and monetize it. |
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