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HyugaHinata



Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 3505
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:32 am Reply with quote
skyesage wrote:
你是一位傻子Smile (Translation: You're an idiot)

I don't mean to sound offended or defensive, but tones aren't that hard to master, and if I can hold a basic conversation in Mandarin after three years of high school level Chinese study, then I don't think it really is so impossible. English is nearly impossible for non-native speakers...


Any language with an alphabet is always, ALWAYS going to be easier than a language that doesn't. Would you rather memorise 50,000 characters and their pronunciations, or learn 26 letters and work from there?

3 years gets you how many characters? Speaking is always going to be easier than reading and writing. More as to why Chinese is made of fail: http://www.angelfire.com/rings/ttt-subtitles/index.html
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Randall Miyashiro



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2451
Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:37 am Reply with quote
sj21 wrote:
Because in the galaxy railways the main characters name is Manabu Yuuki and they pronounce it in the english dub as "Yu-Uki".

Does anybody know if thats correct because with japanese spelling it would normally just be yuuki. Not Yu-Uki.


I didn't listen to the English track, but that is definitely off. Galaxy Railways is one of those series where the distinction for Yuuki and Yuki is required since there is another main character named Yuki.

Ojisan and Ojiisan also come to mind and shouldn't be mixed up since one means Uncle and the other Grandfather.

I tend to watch anything that takes place in Japan in Japanese for this and a few other reasons. I really hate it when names are mispronounced, especially for names that are shared with my family members or friends. It also just feels odd to see a bunch of samurai sitting around speaking English to me. It also seems strange for series like ROD and Azumanga where most of the school scenes take place in English class. On the other hand I (usually) do not criticize others who don't know Japanese that watch dubs since there are many valid reasons for watching the dub.

In general I tend to lean towards subs in movies (just bought Pan's Labyrinth, Black Book, Run Lola Run, and Lives of Others om Blu-ray) and refuse to watch the dub, so this is not Japanese specific. I really hate when the "bad guys" are speaking in English with heavy accents in movies which was often the case in old WWII films. For this reason I applaud the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles for using subtitles in a good number of episodes instead of having Nazi's speaking in German accented English.

Naturally I usually don't have an issue for shows taking place in the UK/States in English and enjoyed the Hellsing TV/Ultimate dubs.
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lordwindowlicker



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:13 am Reply with quote
I do tend to spot check dubs when I can....

Has anyone watched the Ike! Inachu Takkyubu (Ping Pong Club) dub? That has to be one of the most painful dubs I've ever had to endure. Maeno = "My-eyno"
(shudders)
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Masayume



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Indiana
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:49 am Reply with quote
HyugaHinata wrote:
skyesage wrote:
你是一位傻子Smile (Translation: You're an idiot)

I don't mean to sound offended or defensive, but tones aren't that hard to master, and if I can hold a basic conversation in Mandarin after three years of high school level Chinese study, then I don't think it really is so impossible. English is nearly impossible for non-native speakers...


Any language with an alphabet is always, ALWAYS going to be easier than a language that doesn't. Would you rather memorise 50,000 characters and their pronunciations, or learn 26 letters and work from there?

3 years gets you how many characters? Speaking is always going to be easier than reading and writing. More as to why Chinese is made of fail: http://www.angelfire.com/rings/ttt-subtitles/index.html


Wow this conversation just took a whole turn into almost offensive. I cannot believe you would seriously want to delete Kanji as a whole from the Japanese written language. That's somewhat saddening to me as a serious student of the Japanese language. If you get rid of Kanji you have to get rid of Hiragana and Katakana as well, as they developed over the years because of Kanji to develop the Japanese written language as we know it.

Without Kanji you wouldn't know what you're reading half the time. And if you really think it's a relic, try telling that to the dozens of other languages that use phonetic and pictographic written languages like Japanese.

If you really have that big of a problem with kanji I'd suggest sticking to your standard (and I'd argue wholly boring) latin based languages. They're "easier" for you.

Oh and English is rather hard as a foreign language for other nationalities. Especially for those languages where English is completely different. I've been around enough foreigners to have heard the stories and seen how far 8 years of studying that in Middle school/High school will get someone.

It's always always about effort, care, and desire to learn in any subject.
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Labbes



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 890
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:58 am Reply with quote
[quote="Masayume"]
HyugaHinata wrote:
Oh and English is rather hard as a foreign language for other nationalities. Especially for those languages where English is completely different. I've been around enough foreigners to have heard the stories and seen how far 8 years of studying that in Middle school/High school will get someone.

It's always always about effort, care, and desire to learn in any subject.


I don't think so, I had French, Latin and English and English is by far the easiest choice - and that's not only my opinion, all of my classmates think the same.
English has been simplified a lot, that makes it so easy. Concerning grammar.
If you are talking about pronounciation, you might be right to a certain extent. The French I know and knew all have absolutely horrible accents, I believe it has something to do with their language being completely different. However, I don't think Chinese (Mandarin?) or Japanese would be any simpler at all.
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TsC_BaTToSai



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:49 pm Reply with quote
I was taught that Kanji was adopted from China by Japan for the specific purpose of making it more difficult for foreigners to learn. I don't know if that is accurate or not, but one of my history teachers made that comment. Personally I dislike learning kanji. I've focused much more on attempting to improve my speaking skills. It seems like too daunting of a task to me. If they simply had hiragana, I'd be happy. You could still understand what is being said from context, just like any other written language. I have a friend here that has been in America as a study abroad student for 5 years now, and she has to write back to japanese companies looking to hire her. She can't remember kanji. She has to use her online translator, type in the hiragana and have it show her all the possible kanji characters. It is just overkill, too much and too unnecessary.

Then again, I can also respect those that want to keep it for cultural, historic, and aesthetic reasons.
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Zalis116
Moderator


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6863
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:28 pm Reply with quote
Okay guys, this thread is not meant for debates about reforming the Japanese language, so I want this off-topic side discussion dropped.
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skyfishing



Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 30
Location: West Coast, USA
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:14 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 posted:

Quote:
Okay guys, this thread is not meant for debates about reforming the Japanese language, so I want this off-topic side discussion dropped.


um ok.... go dubs. so i guess to summarize from my point of view was that some people prefer their subs since if a voice actor gets a name mispronounced then the dubbing horribly sucks and should not be watched. On the other side someone commented that one of the times they watch dubs is because they dont want to put their glasses on. while i give my sympathy with this because i also wear contacts (greatest invention ever) its harder for me since i pretty much have to wear them anyway since im nearsighted.

Whether its because of glasses or the plain simple fact that you love watching stuff in your own native language and hate reading the bottom of your screen no one is ever going to give in i guess. Well cant we all just get along?.....No?.....
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HyugaHinata



Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 3505
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:12 am Reply with quote
Sorry I brought the discussion off on a tangent. This will be my laste response to Masayume.

On topic, I don't mind whether someone watches dubs or subs. They're fans either way, and we need both to reach as many fans as possible, which will lead to more and more anime releases.

Masayume wrote:
Wow this conversation just took a whole turn into almost offensive. I cannot believe you would seriously want to delete Kanji as a whole from the Japanese written language. That's somewhat saddening to me as a serious student of the Japanese language. If you get rid of Kanji you have to get rid of Hiragana and Katakana as well, as they developed over the years because of Kanji to develop the Japanese written language as we know it.


Then they can use romaji. That would simplify and streamline learning both Japanese and English in the Land of the Rising Sun.

Masayume wrote:
Without Kanji you wouldn't know what you're reading half the time.


If English, Spanish, Russian, Italian, Greek, and Hebrew can do it, I don't see why Japanese can't. English has more words that sound similar but mean completely different things, and we manage just fine.

Masayume wrote:
And if you really think it's a relic, try telling that to the dozens of other languages that use phonetic and pictographic written languages like Japanese.


I bet they'd still prefer to use a language without kanji, especially considering that furigana negates the need to learn ANY kanji at all.

Masayume wrote:
If you really have that big of a problem with kanji I'd suggest sticking to your standard (and I'd argue wholly boring) latin based languages. They're "easier" for you.


Tell that to the students who've committed suicide because they couldn't meet their parents' expectations on learning Chinese.

Masayume wrote:
Oh and English is rather hard as a foreign language for other nationalities. Especially for those languages where English is completely different. I've been around enough foreigners to have heard the stories and seen how far 8 years of studying that in Middle school/High school will get someone.


It's still easier than Chinese as a foreign language. Alphabets also have the benefit of making the culture look more advanced than cavemen.

Masayume wrote:
It's always always about effort, care, and desire to learn in any subject.


But Chinese also requires a 2000-year life expectancy.
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KyuuA4



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 1361
Location: America, where anime and manga can be made
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:57 am Reply with quote
Someday, we'll see Japanese with Korean subtitles. Twisted Evil
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:05 am Reply with quote
HyugaHinata wrote:
English has no male or female nouns.

Chinese verbs has no past, present or future tenses, or first / third person forms. No male / female / neutral nouns and articles either. Grammatically speaking, Chinese is even simpler.

HyugaHinata wrote:
As for pronounciation, Chinese has 50,000 different pronounciations

Wrong, unless you count every single pronunciation in dialects. That would be like, saying "po[tay]to" and "po[tah]to" are different words just because people pronounce them somewhat differently.

HyugaHinata wrote:
and four different (i.e. retarded) tones.

If it's Standard Mandarin you're talking about then it has 4+1 tones.

HyugaHinata wrote:
Give children a choice, and they'll pick the language they can learn in 6 years instead of 18 years.

I can could read 施氏食獅史 when I was six, so it must be your own problem. Wink

See, another bloody example.

skyesage wrote:
你是一位傻子Smile (Translation: You're an idiot)

Articles and quantifiers are rarely used when the subject is both singular and non-specific. Thus it would be more reasonable to say 你是傻子 or 你這個傻子, or using adjectives instead (你真傻 "you [are] very idiotic"). For those who has experience in translating, "你是一位傻子" is a rather ironic example of Chinese written by non-native speakers. Anime smile + sweatdrop

More recent and Internet-influenced phrases would be 傻逼 or 小白.

HyugaHinata wrote:
More as to why Chinese is made of fail:

Haw haw haw. We'll see.

HyugaHinata wrote:
If English, Spanish, Russian, Italian, Greek, and Hebrew can do it, I don't see why Japanese can't.

Yeah right. See if Vietnamese language is more versatile and competitive than Japanese or Chinese.
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abunai
Old Regular


Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:10 am Reply with quote
Earlier in this thread, a moderator issued a clear warning to stop derailing this thread into topic-irrelevant chatter about which language is better, and whether/how Japanese should be "reformed".

Since this warning has been roundly ignored by several people, this thread is now made of FAIL and LOCK.

Have a nice day.

- abunai
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