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melonbread



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 317
Location: UK (London)

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Viz, Viz, Viz. So much about Viz. I wish I could know where I am with their policies for once.

Every title they release I have to ask - how badly is it changed from the original... a business shouldn't be like that.
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:32 pm Reply with quote
melonbread wrote:
Viz, Viz, Viz. So much about Viz. I wish I could know where I am with their policies for once.

Every title they release I have to ask - how badly is it changed from the original... a business shouldn't be like that.


You know, I keep hearing that from people, and I never get it. I read SJUSA, collect a few of their titles, I've never run into any problems. What, exactly, have they screwed up on? Or is this just something that happened five years ago and people have never gotten over it or somesuch?
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Hi-Chan



Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 102
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:01 pm Reply with quote
BellosTheMighty wrote:
melonbread wrote:
Viz, Viz, Viz. So much about Viz. I wish I could know where I am with their policies for once.

Every title they release I have to ask - how badly is it changed from the original... a business shouldn't be like that.


You know, I keep hearing that from people, and I never get it. I read SJUSA, collect a few of their titles, I've never run into any problems. What, exactly, have they screwed up on? Or is this just something that happened five years ago and people have never gotten over it or somesuch?


The whiner is still harping on the editing done in one vol. of FMA involving a crucifiction. Anime cry
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: Coon Rapids, MN

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:00 pm Reply with quote
Wonderful, but let's keep this on topic about this one. If he wants to make a case about it then fine, nothing against the rules about that. Just saying "they ruin everything" isn't really doing anything to promote discussion.
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minakichan



Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 1069

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:50 pm Reply with quote
Hi-Chan wrote:
The whiner is still harping on the editing done in one vol. of FMA involving a crucifiction. Anime cry


Not necessarily... Lots of people have more issue with Viz changing SFX or dialogue. Dialogue is actually the big thing for me-- yes, I like that they don't take a stiff straight-up translation from the Japanese, but it gets a little overboard to make all the characters talk like <s>DJ Milky</s> they're from the 1980s.

At the same time, as much as I can't stand it, Viz totally eats my wallet... And at least they aren't Tokyopop *isshot*. (which is why I often buy the volumes but then go back and read the old scanlations instead of the actual book ^^)

To stay on topic, yeyyyy Koukou Debut~ my favorite shoujo manga ever. I think ANN is getting a little excessive writing about EVERY SINGLE one-shot any mangaka writes, but whatever.
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melonbread



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
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Location: UK (London)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:16 am Reply with quote
Well I'm not a whiner, I'm a realist. It's not just me who feels this way, and me and all the other people who do makes it so Viz don't get all the money they could be getting, they're too big to care though. Nor did I say "they ruin everything".

Anyway, whatever. There are too many people who are okay with all the censoring Viz do, and it's ultimately the majority who will win out, and by that I mean nothing is going to change. Viz need to one day figure out that they need the base fans though, who are willing to pump all their money into their business, because I'm sure that one day when the manga industry goes the same way as the anime industry Viz are going to have quite a tough time, and then they'll be wanting the real fans to come and buy their products.

As I've said before, all Viz need to do is issue a statement on their stance on censoring in general, then I'll know where I am, and likewise for all the others. If it keeps going on like this I'm just reluctant to even bother looking into how their titles have taken shape - well that's a lie because I'm very much so interested in them. It can't be that hard to please your fans can it Viz? They're not even bothering to go to conventions anymore, either, to try and avoid all the questions about their several adandoned anime series and other such questions.

If someone is "whining", there's usually a point to it, so don't just shrug it off. If it doesn't bother or concern you then don't try and belittle that person by making them out to be an idiot.
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DarkTenshi90



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 440
Location: Nebraska

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:44 am Reply with quote
Ugh, didn't care for this manga series. I bought it and quickly took it back after reading it. It was way too cliche, and I couldn't tolerate it.

On the other hand, I don't think Viz does badly when it comes to translating manga. The only one that made me want to shoot myself was the second volume of NANA, where they said "dude" and "man" way too much. But no, the sound effects do not bother me. They actually take the time to translate those and replace the Japanese sound effects with english. Yeah, they're a little big, but I can still tell what's going on, so I've never gotten overly angry about it.

I've been buying manga from Viz for a long time, and the only one that's ever bothered me was that one NANA volume. That's it, and I own more Viz manga than any other company.

However, the Excel Saga series stops translating the sound effects after the first volume. Or the first chapter. I personally can't remember 'cause I sold that series to a friend of mine.
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sakura_r0se



Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:11 pm Reply with quote
I own a good amount of Viz manga and I'll have to say that it's not necessarily Viz themselves that should be held responsible for some bad translations, mispellings/grammar editing and or censorship. There are many different translation groups/teams that work on each manga. Some of my Viz manga have the SFX translated, some don't. Some of them have perfectly fine dialog, some, like Nana, use "dude" and "man" a lot in the dialog. And scanlations aren't perfect either. Like fansubs, sometimes they'll add in some curse words or slang just for the heck of it. But to say that ALL Viz manga is "bad" is a bit stretching it. If you don't like it, just don't buy anything Viz and don't pay attention to anything Viz. Simple as that = )
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:15 pm Reply with quote
melonbread wrote:
Well I'm not a whiner, I'm a realist. It's not just me who feels this way, and me and all the other people who do makes it so Viz don't get all the money they could be getting, they're too big to care though. Nor did I say "they ruin everything".

Anyway, whatever. There are too many people who are okay with all the censoring Viz do, and it's ultimately the majority who will win out, and by that I mean nothing is going to change. Viz need to one day figure out that they need the base fans though, who are willing to pump all their money into their business, because I'm sure that one day when the manga industry goes the same way as the anime industry Viz are going to have quite a tough time, and then they'll be wanting the real fans to come and buy their products.

As I've said before, all Viz need to do is issue a statement on their stance on censoring in general, then I'll know where I am, and likewise for all the others. If it keeps going on like this I'm just reluctant to even bother looking into how their titles have taken shape - well that's a lie because I'm very much so interested in them. It can't be that hard to please your fans can it Viz? They're not even bothering to go to conventions anymore, either, to try and avoid all the questions about their several adandoned anime series and other such questions.

If someone is "whining", there's usually a point to it, so don't just shrug it off. If it doesn't bother or concern you then don't try and belittle that person by making them out to be an idiot.


You didn't answer the question. -_-;;;;;;;

What, exactly, have they done that got people against them? Or, narrow it down- what, exactly, have they done that got YOU against them?
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melonbread



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 317
Location: UK (London)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:28 pm Reply with quote
BellosTheMighty wrote:
melonbread wrote:
Well I'm not a whiner, I'm a realist. It's not just me who feels this way, and me and all the other people who do makes it so Viz don't get all the money they could be getting, they're too big to care though. Nor did I say "they ruin everything".

Anyway, whatever. There are too many people who are okay with all the censoring Viz do, and it's ultimately the majority who will win out, and by that I mean nothing is going to change. Viz need to one day figure out that they need the base fans though, who are willing to pump all their money into their business, because I'm sure that one day when the manga industry goes the same way as the anime industry Viz are going to have quite a tough time, and then they'll be wanting the real fans to come and buy their products.

As I've said before, all Viz need to do is issue a statement on their stance on censoring in general, then I'll know where I am, and likewise for all the others. If it keeps going on like this I'm just reluctant to even bother looking into how their titles have taken shape - well that's a lie because I'm very much so interested in them. It can't be that hard to please your fans can it Viz? They're not even bothering to go to conventions anymore, either, to try and avoid all the questions about their several adandoned anime series and other such questions.

If someone is "whining", there's usually a point to it, so don't just shrug it off. If it doesn't bother or concern you then don't try and belittle that person by making them out to be an idiot.


You didn't answer the question. -_-;;;;;;;

What, exactly, have they done that got people against them? Or, narrow it down- what, exactly, have they done that got YOU against them?


To name a few things, but not all of them, I'm sure there are more I can't think of right now:

They don't give any respect or communication to fans on any forum/Internet website, as far as I know, and now they're getting out of conventions to avoid questions (assumed), but we'll have to see if they come to any of the big ones.

As has been mentioned, their policies seem to be sporadic, i.e they censor, say, nipples in volume 5 of manga X but leave them in in the same manga volume 6, or they leave in something really gruesome thing.

Take a look down here:

Battle Angel Alita (All volumes, including Last Order) Viz Media (Action)
Artwork edit: Original large book version reportedly changed the order of some of the stories.
Story edit: Names of many characters and places changed, resulting in some story alterations.

Bleach (Volume 14) Viz Media (Shonen Jump)
Artwork edit: Vol 14, chapter 116, page 28 Extra smoke has been added to cover Yoruichi's naked body, although the nipples and groin were already covered in the original.

Bobobo (All volumes) Viz Media
Story edits: Names were changed to reflect names used in the Toei anime dub.

Case Closed (All volumes) Viz Media
Story edits: The original title (Detective Conan) was changed and many of the main characters were renamed to match the names used in Funimation English dub for the anime.

Claymore (Volume 2 and 3 (possibly 4+)) Viz Media (Shonen Jump Advanced)
Artwork edits: Small mummy penis was edited from artwork in volumes 2 and 3. Unknown if volumes 4 and up will have any edits.

Descendents of Darkness (Volume 4) Viz Media
Artwork edits: Removed artwork/sfx depicting a vague male-male oral sex scene.

D-Gray Man (Volume 3) Viz Media
Artwork edit: Words in original artwork reading in English “fudge you! Exorcist” was changed to “Thank you! Exorcist?|”.

Dr. Slump (Volume 2 and 4) Viz Media
Artwork edit: Frontal male child nudity edited out (Vol 2 pg.131). Volume 4 (starting on Page 77) the safari vehicle driver's lips were edited. Also, many scenes with Taro smoking have had the smoke edited out (example: Page 19 of Volume 5, aka the Seven Lucky Gods title page.)
Story edits: Alcohol translated as super punch (Vol 2 pg 30).

DragonBall (Multiple volumes) Viz Media
Artwork changes: Male and female nudity altered in some versions of this series. Some of the small red versions of Dragonball appear to restore the original artwork, but the most recent ones are again edited.

DragonBall Z (Volumes Mr. Satan appears in) Viz Media
Story Changes: Mr. Satan became Hercules to coincide with the FUNi dub.

Flame of Recca (Volume 20) Viz Media
Artwork changes: Female nudity was altered in volume 20, despite earlier volumes with nudity being unedited. Future volumes may be edited.

Fullmetal Alchemist (Volume 8) Viz Media
Artwork edits: Two panels depicting a character that was crucified on a stone cross was edited to make the cross look like a stone slab instead.

Hikaru no Go(Volumes ?) Viz Media
Artwork edits: Altering artwork to change cigarettes to gum and firecrackers, and changing the dialogue to match.

I’’s (Volumes 1-4, 7-10) Viz Media (Shonen Jump Advanced)
Artwork edits: Nipples removed or covered by fog/stars/objects in multiple volumes. Oddly, nipples in volumes 5, 11, 12, and 13 were not edited.

Jojo’s Bizzare Adventure (Volume 3) Viz Media
Artwork edits: Strong animal violence was edited out of volume 3. Strong human violence unaltered. Viz is also not publishing Jojo’s from the beginning and have skipped long story arcs (no word if these missing chapters will ever be published in English).

Knights of the Zodiac (All volumes) Viz Media
Story changes: Character names were changed to match anime dub names. Original title was Saint Seiya.

MAR (Volume 13) Viz Media
Artwork edits: Nipples and nudity covered up in volume 13.

Midori Days (Volume 7) Viz Media (Action/Viz Media)
Artwork edits: Volume 7 has close-ups of a breast and nipples covered by a redrawn bra on page 130 and two character’s breasts were covered covered/altered to remove/hide nipples on page 187. Other early volumes and volume 8 that contained nudity were unedited.

NANA (Various volumes) Viz Media (Shojuo Beat)
Artwork edits: Four pages of a flashback sequence detailing the back-story for characters in Blast and how the band got its name were removed from volume 4 (and Shojo Beat printing, although not the exact same pages). Cigarette brand name changed (possible trademark issue) changed from Black Stone to Blast.

Naruto (Volume 5 & 10, various volumes) Viz Media (Shonen Jump)
Artwork edits: Middle-finger swear removed from volume 5. Towels added to cover nudity in hot spring scene in vol 10. Various nudity and faint nipples (or suggestion of nipples) obscured, removed, or faded from various volumes (more info to come). In recent chapters, the clan's curse mark on Neji's forehead has been changed to an "~X~" instead of the original manji sign (often confused with the swastika), but this edit was undone for the graphic novel release of volume 12 along with a note explaining that it wasn’t a swastika.

One Piece (All volumes) Viz (Shonen Jump)
Story changes: Zoro became Zolo to coincide with the 4Kids dub.

Portus (single volume) Viz
Artwork edits: One panel featuring a meat cleaver to the head has been mosaiced over to cover up the gore. Viz notes in the backmatter that "[s]ome scenes have been modified from the original Japanese version".

Prince of Tennis (Volume 10) Viz Media (Shojo Beat)
Artwork edits: Cigarette modified into a toothpick.

Read or Die (Volume 4) Viz Media
Artwork edits: Nipples were removed from volume 4 of this 4 volume series.

Shakugan no Shana (Volume 2) Viz Media
Artwork edits: A color page containing a image of Shana in a nighty was replaced with a different black and white school uniform picture in volume 2.

Shakugan no Shana novel (Viz Media)
Artwork edits: A color page containing a guy in bed with a girl was cropped heavily to hide her lower half and panties. A black and white version of the same colored image was removed completely, along with a nearly-naked shot of the girl The manga of the same title had more nudity and wasn’t edited.
Story edits: None reported.


Shaman King (Various volumes) Viz Media (Shonen Jump)
Artwork edits: Tanuki testicles removed in a couple of chapters. Underwear added to cover exposed buttocks. They changed Chocolove's name to Joco and reduced his lip size to avoid a darkface stereotype.

Ultimate Muscle (Volume ?) Viz Media (Shonen Jump Advanced)
Artwork edits: Nudity covered up- bare male butts (pg 11, 65), ripped briefs (pg. 171), female nudity (pg. 57). Male + female nudity covered up. Volume 16 was reportedly unedited.
Story edits: Names are changed to coincide with the 4Kids dub.

Wedding Peach (Volume 7) Viz Media (Shojo)
Story and artwork edits: An entire chapter was removed from volume 7.

Yu-Gi-Oh! (Various volumes) Viz Media
Story edits: Some card names are changed to reflect the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime dub. Pegasus’ name was also slightly changed. Later printings of the early volumes were also edited to remove swearing and references to condoms.

Yu-Gi-Oh! GX (All volumes) Viz Media
Story edits: Names are changed to coincide with the Yu-Gi-Oh! GX Anime dub.

Zatch Bell (Volumes 1+) Viz Media (Action)
Artwork edits: All the nudity in Zatch Bell (starting from volume 1, which includes badly drawn shorts added on the main character during a scene with comical nudity, and up) and as well as the visual gag, which depicts Zatch skewered with knives and surgical scalpels, has been edited as well.
Story changes: The original Japanese version of the manga was called "Gash Bell." The names of the main characters were either completely Americanized, or shortened into becoming nicknames that are derived from the original Japanese.

(Absolutely no credit to me for compiling this list - taken from AoD forums. Also, this list is most probably incomplete).

Personal grudge - they've ruined both the Shakugan no Shana novels and manga. The novels I was highly looking forwards to, and now I can't even enjoy that and its massive amount of volumes, same for FMA actually. I can't really say it's personal to one manga.

Basically, there should be one moral that's held true for all licensing companies. If you don't feel you can release a title without having to censor it - no matter how small the edit - then don't license it. For example, I'm paying to read manga X, not manga 0.9X+0.1Viz, or a better way to put it, I'm not paying to read Viz' idea of what little kids should or should not be allowed to read, the Japanese mangaka (along with the Japanese publisher) should be the judge of that, they're setting a target audience and that should be the same worldwide - it's not like there are depraved little Japanese children running around Japan causing havoc.

If you watch the Dark Horse AX2007 panel, their staff basically sum up what I'm thinking.
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:02 pm Reply with quote
You answered the question directly this time, very good. You lose points for copy/pasting someone else's work, however, plus the list is apparently out of date (Claymore is up to volume 10 now).

That said, if this is your list of complaints, then you're overreacting by orders of magnitude. We primarily see nudity clean-ups here. If that kind of stuff affects the story significantly, you're reading porn. And griping over name changes is silly. If you're going to get your panties in a bunch over misnomers and titties, buy some doujins- you can find them at any convention, usually catagorized by series.

You claim there should be one universal standard for all. It wouldn't be any better. An anecdote comes to mind- back during the 70's, when Stan Lee was still doing Spider-Man himself (or so I hear- this comes from Stan himself, and his memory in recent years has become questionable), he decided to do a brief story arc about Harry Osborn, then Peter Parker's friend, battling a drug addiction. This was before "very special episodes" and such became subjects of derision. Despite the fact that the story portrayed drug use in a universally negative light, the Comics Code couldn't approve it. "No drugs", the regulations said, and the regulations were concrete. Stan discussed the matter at length with them, emphasizing that he was not trying to support drug use, that he was catagorically AGAINST drug use, and that the storyline bore that out. All of this was true. It didn't matter. "No drugs", the regulations said, and that was that. So Stan went ahead and has the story published WITHOUT the Comics Code approval. And he got lauded by the press for confronting relevent issues and standing against social ills.

You see the point, I think. A consistent system is not inherently less ridiculous then a flexible system, it's just ridiculous in different ways. If we had a consistent system, your complaints would be implying that it was draconian and out of date, instead of implying that it was hypocritical. Not only that, by the very nature of content editing if your system is to be consistent it has to cast a wide net. This results in more stuff being cut out then would be if people were allowed to take into consideration things like context, author's intent, and so forth. Otherwise people go through the loopholes and the system has failed in it's primary purpose.

Let's be honest here, you don't want a consistent system, you want NO system. You want to see it all. That's fine, okay? You're perfectly within your rights to want to see the work as the artist intended. (Even though, realistically speaking, you would have to learn to read fluent Japanese and know at least as much as the author about Japanese culture, cultural attitudes, history, and so forth to do so.) But if that's what you want, then SAY what you want. Complaining that the system is flawed when you really think that the system shouldn't exist is like that griping fat lady from 80's cartoons: "That food was so disgusting, it must have been poisoned. And such small portions, too!"

Two more things: first, you're going to have to identify just how they "ruined" Shana. Why? Because your list of grievances says:

Quote:
Shakugan no Shana novel (Viz Media)
Artwork edits: A color page containing a guy in bed with a girl was cropped heavily to hide her lower half and panties. A black and white version of the same colored image was removed completely, along with a nearly-naked shot of the girl The manga of the same title had more nudity and wasn’t edited.
Story edits: None reported.


If cutting a sex scene that, if I'm reading this correctly, was irrelevent to the plot ruins the book for you, you're reading the book for the wrong reasons. If there's more to your objections, then out with it. If not, get some porn and shut your mouth.

And lastly, you complain that "They don't give any respect or communication to fans on any forum/Internet website, as far as I know". Excuse me, genius, you think that might have something to do with the fact that people's knee-jerk reaction to hearing about them is
Quote:
Every title they release I have to ask - how badly is it changed from the original... a business shouldn't be like that.

I mean seriously, if YOU got boos and jeers every time you walked into the room, don't you think YOU wouldn't want to hang out there anymore?
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melonbread



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 317
Location: UK (London)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:33 pm Reply with quote
I've got nothing further to add to this topic, I'm entitled to my opinion and will always be. I can't be bothered to reply to everything you've said either, because a lot really doesn't make much sense, and furthermore most is quite patronising. I thought debate was beyond "well done" and all the rest but, well, I guess not.

There's no point trying to have a conversation with someone if you just belittle their opinion once it's been explained. I brought up the topic, and I've got nothing more to add to it now. I'll wait until Viz do something wrong next time to add my opinion again. Shouldn't be too long.
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BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:15 pm Reply with quote
melonbread wrote:
I've got nothing further to add to this topic, I'm entitled to my opinion


You're entitled to your opinion, yes. You're also entitled to the opinion that, for example, the earth must be flat. I'm entitled to not respect your opinion, especially when it falls apart so completely under analysis.

For the record, you STILL have not answered my question about what Viz has done to merit so much ire. You've given me a catalog of trivialities, minutia, and nit-picks, one or two for each series, and maybe one or two legitimate gripes, none of which even reach the level of 80's anime editing. No one on this board is convinced that constitutes adequate grievances, (anyone who IS, feel free to speak up), so you fail at evaluating NA companies.

Damn kids. Get off my $^%&ing lawn...
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minakichan



Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 1069

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:01 pm Reply with quote
DarkTenshi90 wrote:
Ugh, didn't care for this manga series. I bought it and quickly took it back after reading it. It was way too cliche, and I couldn't tolerate it.


Just thought I would post my two cents-- that was EXACTLY my reaction the first time I read the scanlations. I thought it was retarded, and even now, the first 3 volumes really makes me want to kill myself sometimes. I will say that once it gets over the actual "premise," the series gets exponentially better. I will be honest-- it shot up in volume 4 from one of my least favorite to my most favorite shoujo manga ever-- not because of the plot, but because the characters and and humor became absolutely amazing (chapter 31, I believe-- absolutely amazing). It's not a series to be read for plot (as terrible as that sounds), but this is one of the few series that I can definitely say, "hold out for it. It gets a LOT better."

But if you feel skeptical about it (I certainly did), that's totally understandable.
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Kagemusha



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:18 pm Reply with quote
To people complaining about the manga being too cliche: it struck me as a tongue-in-cheek take on the high school romance genre that branches out and plays conventions later on. I rarely read this kind of manga but the cleverness of the writing and twists on the usual archetypes (for once the romantic lead isn't inhumanly perfect or a haughty dickhead) helps it rise about the vast majority of shojo manga in my opinion.
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