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Being an English-speaking fan of lolicon manga really sucks


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einhorn303



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1140

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:00 am Reply with quote
Being an English-speaking fan of lolicon manga really sucks, doesn't it?

English Licensed manga for niche fandoms:
Yaoi: 318 licensed titles
Yuri: 13 licensed titles
Lolicon: 0 licensed titles

I don't have a problem with yaoi fans, but still...when I stand in the racks of Borders, and hear them talking about "mainstream bookstores don't pay enough attention to us!", ah, the emptiless feeling in my stomach. Giggling 14 year olds get to buy hardcore gayporn at the local mall, while I have to import issues of Comic LO with %350 markup in price in a language I can't even read, so I only get the vaguest idea of the plot (And yes, lolicon manga has awesome plots...because the writers are allowed incredible artistic freedom). You people are incredibly lucky.

People talk about "supporting the industry," but why support the industry when it doesn't support you?
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:59 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Being an English-speaking fan of lolicon manga really sucks


I imagine being a paedophile is a rather unfortunate state of affairs regardless of what language you speak. Rolling Eyes
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Lee1981



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:44 pm Reply with quote
So out of curiosity, what kinds of plots do lolicon mangas have?

And not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I can definitely understand why most companies wouldn't want to touch the stuff. Not trying to be judgmental or anything; just saying.
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einhorn303



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1140

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
I imagine being a paedophile is a rather unfortunate state of affairs regardless of what language you speak. Rolling Eyes


Yeah, because if you like yaoi, you're totally a gay man.

Lee1981 wrote:
So out of curiosity, what kinds of plots do lolicon mangas have?

And not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I can definitely understand why most companies wouldn't want to touch the stuff. Not trying to be judgmental or anything; just saying.


There is the classic "guy rapes loli, then loli/loli's relative takes violent bloody retribution on guy on last page" story. I guess that definately supports the "it's only a fantasy!" argument for lolicon. You don't want to get shot/struck dead by god/get AIDS/other various BAD ENDS I've seen.

Some of my favorite series are "Your Dog" by Asami Sekiya, which explores themes of guilt, innocence, and the excesses of capitalist society. Also "That's why they call it love" by Naoshi Onizuka, a very touching and cute young romance between an assertive girl and more emotional, glasses-wearing boy. Mizui Kaou can do good romantic stuff too. And anything by Yamamoto Kumoi, just because his very dark sense of black humor always makes me lol (Some people would call Final Half-Year or Usual Play a classic). And Horihone Saizou stuff for just being bizarre and surreal, although he may be too disgusting for some people. (Some of his stories are downright gutter-Lovecraftian) Plus there's always Tokyo Red Hood. And Kodomo no Jikan or Kana Imouto. I haven't played Kana Imouto (my Linux computer can't play visual novels too well), but it's supposed to have really beautiful "changed my life" endings.
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blind_assassin



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 755

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:36 pm Reply with quote
einhorn303 wrote:
Moomintroll wrote:
I imagine being a paedophile is a rather unfortunate state of affairs regardless of what language you speak. Rolling Eyes


Yeah, because if you like yaoi, you're totally a gay man.


That's a specious rebuttal. Lolicon is legally recognized as child porn in a growing portion of countries that includes America and Canada.
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abunai
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5461
Location: 露命

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:25 pm Reply with quote
Feh. For heaven's sake, kids, make an effort to debate with some intelligence.

blind_assassin wrote:
That's a specious rebuttal.

Actually, there doesn't appear to be anything specious about it. At worst, it is rhetorically weak -- but einhorn303 is clearly making his point, that he believes an interest in lolicon can be separate from actual paedophilia. Calling his rebuttal specious does not address his point, it is merely partially sidestepping his argument by refusing to admit its validity.

But you do address his point -- let's look at why you think his argument might be "specious":

blind_assassin wrote:
Lolicon is legally recognized as child porn in a growing portion of countries that includes America and Canada.

Hmm. Without getting into the specific debate about lolicon, I will say this: do not be so quick to hold up the United States (or Canada) as exemplars of morality.

What North American law "recognizes" as sinful or immoral has varied greatly over time, and encompasses a slew of practices which are not only moral but commonly accepted in these (for the time being) more enlightened times.

For instance, the United States is the only country in the world that has ever been foolish enough to go so far as to enshrine a prohibition against alcohol into its constitution. It is also a country where religious freedom is commonly lauded, but upheld only with regard to theists. Not to mention the veritable morass of different local and state legislations governing the acts of consenting adults in their own homes, or the many annual cases of hate crimes versus people of nonstandard sexuality. Hardly a record to be proud of, let alone hold up as a standard of excellence.

Feel free to argue the merits of the matter, as long as you can keep it civil -- but arguing from the position that "X is against the customs and practices of my country, hence it is against Universal Law" will only make you appear foolish. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that all of humanity has always held that something (in this case, illustrations depicting lolicon -- which should not be conflated with actual child pornography photographs) is immoral, you will be hard put to demonstrate that universality applies.

My gut feeling with regard to lolicon is perhaps not so far from yours, but I have the sense to realize that, given an absence of convincing proof that it is linked inextricably to paedophilia, there is no solid moral argument against it -- as opposed to actual child pornography, which is among the most vile of crimes. All arguments that I have seen so far are based in the concept of "thought crime" -- that it is an actionable offense in itself to have impure thoughts -- whereas a civilized court of law will recognize that thoughts are free, and only actions matter.

- abunai
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einhorn303



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1140

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:30 pm Reply with quote
blind_assassin wrote:


That's a specious rebuttal. Lolicon is legally recognized as child porn in a growing portion of countries that includes America and Canada.


I meant it a bit flippantly, I was thinking of putting a "Razz" or something after that.

A better rebuttal might be "Yaoi is legally recognized as evil material that deserves the death penalty in a growing portion of countries that includes Iran and Lebanon"?

(I do know that creating live gay porn and being gay are death penalty offenses...I'm not sure about possessing Yaoi, but I imagine it must be rather harsh, if not the death penalty)
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8JF



Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:18 pm Reply with quote
einhorn303 wrote:

There is the classic "guy rapes loli, then loli/loli's relative takes violent bloody retribution on guy on last page" story. I guess that definately supports the "it's only a fantasy!" argument for lolicon. You don't want to get shot/struck dead by god/get AIDS/other various BAD ENDS I've seen.

That sounds an awful lot like the German folklore that was recorded by the Brothers Grimm.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:19 pm Reply with quote
People in my mind tend to associate it with child porn, obviously. But I have seen no direct evidence that links it to child porn. Some of the stuff I have seen though has been somewhat explicit and after a few pages I have actually stopped reading and closed the book, because it may have been intense. I don't know, but people are just not accepting of it yet and licensees aren't willing to take the chance yet. Just look at the results of the KnJ license. That's my opinion only though.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7030
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:26 pm Reply with quote
Okay, let me just try and cut through some of the rhetoric here for a minute.

You like lolicon but you claim you're not a pedophile. Lolicon presents characters who are children in a sexual way. If you aren't attracted to children, why would you have any interest in lolicon?
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Pinkwings



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 234

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:38 pm Reply with quote
I think he is just trolling or trying to start a flame war. Anime smile

I hope loli manga never gets more popular. Kids shouldnt be lusted after. They are kids.

That is all.
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blind_assassin



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 755

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:12 pm Reply with quote
Stop acting like a pompous know it all mother ****er abunai. Your rambling is completely pointless. "Laws change over time" really? I had no clue about that. I thought that Moses came off ****ing Mount Sinai with the Canadian Criminal Code on the back of the Ten Commandments. Lolicon has recently been made illegal. End of story. Whether or not you think it's moral or not has no bearing on reality.

I never even made any connection to it being a universal law. I said it's illegal in two countries. I know for a fact that it's illegal in those two countries and I know it's illegal in several more and it's becoming increasingly restricted. And because he's posting on a North American based forum the logical assumption is that he's from either America or Canada. If his profile said "Location: Ethiopia" I'd have said something along the lines of "Most publishers don't want to touch lolicon with a 100 foot poll because most people think it's disgusting."

And yes, specious makes sense in the way I used it. He implied that reading gay comics makes you gay. Which is based on flawed logic despite being seemingly logical.
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Miho



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:34 pm Reply with quote
To the topic starter: It's probably best that loli manga doesn't get licensed here because the last thing anime/manga fans need is to be associated with pedophiles. I suggest you stick with imports and try to learn Japanese if you want to read it.
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Psycho 101
Thread KillerThread Killer


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 8631
Location: Omega Markets

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:45 am Reply with quote
I normally try to stay away from this topic anymore as it never ends well. I do however feel the need to mention one important thing. The idea that loli manga is linked or helps cause pedophilia is simply unfounded and honestly not true. In any form of deviance, which pedophilia is considered a form of sexual deviancy, a person who suffers from it (pedophile, gerontophile, etc.) are not simply set off by some manga or any one source. Be it a rapist, pedophile, mass murderer or whatever else they all have these thoughts constantly. These kinds of people have these thoughts all the time and no one source is to blame for their actions. A certain source on any given day could set them off. And if it was not that particular object that day it would be another on another day. Simply blaming loli manga is just a cop out and unfounded anyway. People like that don't instantly change and suddenly want to touch children cause they saw it in a manga or whatever else. It simply does not work that way nor does the human psyche. And just in case anyone wants to say I have no idea what I'm talking about my college degree is in criminal justice and my specialty was criminal profiling. I will concede a loli manga might set someone off in one specific instance but if not for the manga that day it might be a commercial or a news article the next day. Of course a particular playboy spread might cause someone to go rape someone. Are we going to outlaw Playboy now? Or how about the Grey Goose Vodka ad that causes a man to go drink and become an alcoholic. Should we outlaw vodka now? You want something to blame for a pedophile then blame the person simple as that. It's a choice to do something like that and the person makes that choice. No one and nothing else can make it for them or force them to do it.
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Miho



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:42 am Reply with quote
Unfortunately some people are too quick to blame violent/explicit video games/anime/manga/etc. for someone's crime and not the person or parents. Like you said chances are the person was already messed up to begin with.
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