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Being an English-speaking fan of lolicon manga really sucks

It obviously has no bearing on your reality

I certainly know more than you.

I caution you not to repeat this mistake, unless you want to start building up a new post count on a different forum.

Not so. You completely missed the original point (later elucidated by Psycho 101) that there is a difference between thought and action, and that reading material which deals with a topic does not necessarily imply that one is in any way eager to devote one's real life to it.

I notice that your public anime list titled "Currently Watching" shows that you are watching Mnemosyne - Mnemosyne no Musume-tachi, the first episode of which contains a violent torture scene charged with sexual sadism. Should I then expect you to rape and torture women? Do you download guro pornography and drool over it?

It's not my business what you read or write or think. Whether you sit in front of your monitor masturbating to pictures of Pikachu getting it on with a Mudkip, I don't care. Whether your tastes run to torture porn, I don't care. Die Gedanken sind frei, so long as you don't act on them. Once you act on them, your actions may or may not break the law.

Nor is it your business what others do, in the privacy of their homes, so long as they cause no harm to others -- and it has yet to be demonstrated (no matter what the legislators of Canada and yourself think) that there is a causal link between lolicon and actual paedophiliac behaviour. The current Canadian legislation is not born in reason and logic, but in outrage -- and outrage is seldom a good basis for legislation.

I find lolicon revolting, but I see no reason why it should be illegal. It harms no one, as opposed to real child pornography, and if it can somehow satisfy those urges in people and keep them away from the genuine stuff, I can see no reason to ban it.

That the politicians in Canada and elsewhere have stampeded to legislate, in defiance of a general principle of law that governs Western jurisprudence -- namely that of freedom of thought -- does not alter the fact that what goes on inside people's heads is their own business.

But I remind you that the forum rules are quite explicit on the subject of what happens to posters who start using pointless profanity in lieu of reasoned arguments.

It obviously has no bearing on your reality, which appears to consist of frothing at the mouth and speaking in tongues.

and while I don't know all, I certainly know more than you.

Being incapable of the latter, as in your case, does not excuse the former.

Do you download guro pornography and drool over it?

Whether you sit in front of your monitor masturbating to pictures of Pikachu getting it on with a Mudkip, I don't care.

I feel that I am wasting my time saying this, because you are obviously incapable of understanding it, or even responding to it with arguments that transcend spitting and baying at the Moon.

Of course, you failed to grasp the irony, since you had no interest in being receptive to any argument against your own close-minded position. You fail massively at the task of reasoned debate

If this were a course in rhetoric or formal logic, you'd be flunking.

This isn't supposed to be a "ranting debate" thread as much as a "discussion on the English manga market from the perspective of a lolicon fan" thread.

You've never tried discussing lolicon on the internet have you?

This has got to be a joke. :/ I read his post in the Elfen Lied topic and now I really hope it is.

I understand thinking a loli is cute. That I understand. But from what he said in the other topic it seems he is thinking in a different way. *shudders*

Personally, I loved Elfen Lied. Any series with loli incest rape and girls peeing on the floor gets an automatic B+ in my book.

Lolicon is illegal on the grounds that it can be a potential catalyst for pedophilia and that there is potential harm done in it's creation (people using real life models being the main concern).

blind_assassin wrote:

Lolicon is illegal on the grounds that it can be a potential catalyst for pedophilia and that there is potential harm done in it's creation (people using real life models being the main concern).

This book has been read by several prominent killers, including "presidential" ones. By your logic, it should be regarded as a potential catalyst for murder, shouldn't it?

I am a 17 year old kid that lives in a relatively small town outside of Toronto. Why do you and abunai think that I'm writing the Canadian Criminal Code?

I've already said that I don't care that lolicon is illegal and it's not like i contributed in any way to that fact.

I really don't understand why I'm actually being harassed over this.

The Canadian Criminal Code is neither a moral code nor a truth. It is a product of political compromises, as of any modern-day code of law. Fortunately, neither abunai nor I have to obey it.

The way you replied said otherwise. You did care about its illegality.

Then stop replying to this thread and just go away. That would be the easiest method.

And don't call a little quarrel over the net as "harassing." I've been using the Internet before you can walk on your own feet; there are still many things for you to learn, kid.

dormcat wrote:

Then stop replying to this thread and just go away. That would be the easiest method.

How about no? Until I break a big enough rule to get modded I don't have to do anything you say and I can post where I want.

You keep trying to say that I'm a psychotic moron for stating the fact that lolicon is illegal in wide range of places.

You respond with circumlocutory and overdressed insults and then entirely fail to address the point with moralistic grandstanding about not banning lolicon.

abunai wrote:

I caution you not to repeat this mistake, unless you want to start building up a new post count on a different forum.

Thus we come to the ultimate end of any argument with mods. Arguing with people that you can't convince is frustrating but when it's someone who has unlimited power of whatever facet the argument stems from/is expressed through and is not accountable in the least to anybody it begins to border on masochism.

My point was that it's legally child porn. Morality is the basis of the law but it has nothing to do with the objective fact that the law exists.

Lolicon is illegal on the grounds that it can be a potential catalyst for pedophilia and that there is potential harm done in it's creation (people using real life models being the main concern).

The law is based on somewhat shaky reasoning but because it's a publicly despised subculture that is a wart on a wart on society it's easy to justify it on junk reasoning that will likely save very few people even if it lead to the elimination of lolicon.

abunai wrote:

I find lolicon revolting, but I see no reason why it should be illegal. It harms no one, as opposed to real child pornography, and if it can somehow satisfy those urges in people and keep them away from the genuine stuff, I can see no reason to ban it.

Given the choice, I would not go out of my way to make it illegal without any personal gain to be had for myself. Cracking down on lolicon is attacking pedophiles by proxy and since everyone hates pedophiles it scores points for whoever gets rid of them so it's a gimmie for any politician that makes the law. Obviously, the fact that lolicon is illegal has no bearing on my life and since any potential harm done by the law won't either I don't mind at all that it's banned.

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen, ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen, ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten, habe ich geschwiegen, ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.
Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

When the Nazis came for the communists, I was silent, for I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats, I was silent, for I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists, I was silent, for I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me, there was nobody left to protest on my behalf.

abunai wrote:

That the politicians in Canada and elsewhere have stampeded to legislate, in defiance of a general principle of law that governs Western jurisprudence -- namely that of freedom of thought -- does not alter the fact that what goes on inside people's heads is their own business.

Again, there are limits. Allowing people to masturbate to 8-year olds because they aren't real people is seen as less important than protecting an incalculable number of children from being preyed upon as a result of allowing those people that freedom. When it comes to a choice of allowing one person to praise Hitler publicly and another to say that Bush is a moron or having all political opinions labeled as treason I'd rather put up with the skin-head. In this situation it's not really even a one or the other situation. I'm not into any bizarre form of porn so having lolicon banned doesn't take any liberty from me.

I've been called a pompous mother ****er in angry responses before too but I think given the fact that you came up with a list this long I think you telling me not to use profanity is pretty hypocritical of you. Just because you don't do it in four letter words doesn't excuse the fact that you're being abusive and disrespectful, which is the point of banning excessive profanity in the first place.

Oh come one, you can't seriously think thats an applicable comparison. I didn't say these people molest children. (and thats just one of the flaws.)

Now without a doubt, as with anything there are exceptions. Certainly there may be the odd case where someone finds some other benefit to reading loli. However, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of these exceptions. They tend to come off like the guy who says he just reads playboy for the articles. Yeah, I guess there must be some people out there somewhere that this is true for, but in the overwhelming majority of the time it just seems like a weak and transparent excuse.

So it's all right to persecute a subculture, if it is publicly despised by a sufficient majority?

Does the name George Klippert mean anything to you?

Whoever diminishes the rights of any citizen, diminishes the rights of all citizens

You really haven't grasped the most fundamental principle of civil liberties, have you? You don't understand that it is like the motto of the Three Musketeers: "One for all, all for one."

The moment you single out a subgroup and deprive it of some or all of its rights, you have lost the whole ballgame. It's only a matter of time before it becomes your turn to lose your rights.

Being interested in a subject in fiction doesn't make a person interested in that same subject in real life. I find the study of serial murder fascinating, the reasons, the nature of the crimes, everything about it strikes me as intriguing. Outside of a cold text book study of the subject, I doubt I could deal with the reality.

Whoever diminishes the rights of any citizen, diminishes the rights of all citizens

fudge off, Jefferson, it's going in there! All citizens are hereby given the right to objectify children and support the growth of the horrifying industry surrounding it as long as they martyr themselves and claim that only supporting it indirectly does not make them a part of that community. No, YOU eat a dick, Franklin!