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Last edited by RHachicho on Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

Lol hard luck Abunai well you tried.

Personally it all depends on the execution they can be extremely cute and its a personality type that is easy for guys to love. Every guy likes the idea of melting through a rough girls exterior to find the softness underneath it gives us a huge ego trip that we managed to do it. So identifying with such a romance is easy for guys. I can't see this personality archetype appealing to women much though they probably either get annoyed with the girl's initial insincerity or resent the implicationthat no matter how spikey a girl is she always has a soft centre.

Then again just once id like to see the shy girl actually get the guy .. just for the hell of it. Some Tsundere characters recently come across as way to spikey for a romance and frankly I would have a hard time putting up with the likes of Chidori or Shana (quite apart from the fact that she is too young). Maybe it's just because of recent hyper feminist trends in media but it seems that too many female leads are somewhere on the rader between spunky and homicidal. Meh maybe I just haven't watched the right Anime yet.

EDIT : \/ Hehe aint seen that one may look it up.

Then again Busuo Rankin had a good romance and that would probably qualify as a Tsundere type although she never really had a strong dislike of the MC. I thaught that one was quite well done. I guess I have no real objection to Tsundere as long as it isnt Tsundere for Tsundere's sake.

RHachicho wrote:

Then again just once id like to see the shy girl actually get the guy .. just for the hell of it.

What about Clannad, the shy girl gets the guy in that, but I guess the Tsundere also got their own alternate storylines.
And I presume that Sawako is getting the guy, though I am not sure if the rival counts as tsundere or yandere.

DuskyPredator,

Spoiler tags are your friends. Use them.

I think "tsundere" is an unfortunate term borne out of the unconscious sexism of anime fans both male and female. While some people may "like" some tsundere, it is a term that has largely negative connotations.

It pretty much reduces every girl past and present to a "type" and that is fan cynicism at its worst. The complex girl in Ocean Waves? Just another "tsundere." Uran in Astro Boy being bratty? Oh, just her being "tsundere". Madoka in KOR? Kyoko in Maison Ikkoku? Same. It's very annoying. Isn't the word "bitchy" sexist enough for some people?

Anime fans will continue to use the word "tsundere" to describe certain females. I know that and it won't change. But it's not something that I'll do. I'd rather stick to more traditional words and descriptions.

The thing is, you don't see any terms for the "Shinji Ikari" type male character. They're called wimpy and nebbish and "emo" but those aren't terms specifically made up to categorize an entire type of sex.

I know anime traffics in stereotypes. I understand that. But when you ignore all the subtleties and deviations of a character just so you can label her a "type" it pretty much reveals a lack of nuance on your ability to dissect a character. Shame on any anime creators who buy into this trap IMO. I don't want to ever hear someone say, "Yes, we are making a "tsundere" anime."

Ok, from now on I will refer to tsundere-type girls as "that girl who is bitchy on the outside, but has a lovey-dovey side she hates to show and boy I wish someone would invent a catchy word for this trope". If that makes you happy.

Shiroi Hane wrote:

Ok, from now on I will refer to tsundere-type girls as "that girl who is bitchy on the outside, but has a lovey-dovey side she hates to show and boy I wish someone would invent a catchy word for this trope". If that makes you happy.

Or you could just call her by her name? If someone in your family, or one of your friends is a "tsundere," do you call them that? Hell, reading some posts by female anime fans, probably a large percentage of FANS would be considered "tsundere." I'm quite sure they would consider that term a gross oversimplification of their personalities if they were referred to as such.

Honestly, I still don't get why it's only females who gets labels but not males. You have tsunderes. You have lolis. You have moe. All terms used to describe a female "type". 3 labels for 1 sex yet I can't for the life of me think of a single "geek" label for the countless stereotypes of anime males. Oh, so Haruhi Suzumiya is a tsundere. Well, that explains EVERYTHING . But Shinji Ikari? Oh no, we can't classify his type because there are SOOO many variations on the passive wimpy male persona that categorizing them into a catchy label would be a gross oversimplification! Or so otaku would have you believe. I'm not even a feminist and this fact has always amused me.

But carry on. It's none of my business how people refer to other people. I'm just saying I don't care for the term, is all.

bravetailor wrote:

Honestly, I still don't get why it's only females who gets labelled but not males. I'm not even a feminist and this fact has always amused me.

Because it's far more common a personality used for female characters than for males. When people see a male romantic interest in a shoujo series that treats the lead like dirt but they ultimately end up as a pair, he tends to be called a jerk or an asshole, rather than a tsundere.

Uran as tsundere? Have you actually heard people call her that? If so, I understand the point about sexism, as that's nowhere near the original meaning of the term.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

bravetailor wrote:

Honestly, I still don't get why it's only females who gets labelled but not males. I'm not even a feminist and this fact has always amused me.

Because it's far more common a personality used for female characters than for males. When people see a male romantic interest in a shoujo series that treats the lead like dirt but they ultimately end up as a pair, he tends to be called a jerk or an not-so-nice-person, rather than a tsundere.

Uran as tsundere? Have you actually heard people call her that? If so, I understand the point about sexism, as that's nowhere near the original meaning of the term.

I'm not so sure about your first point. There are as many male "types" unique to anime as there are female types. The Shinji Ikari type, as I've mentioned. The "I have no personality, please give me a unique face" type embodied by Keiichi Morisato of OMG! Neither of them have their own otaku-label "terms."

Yeah, I was at an anime screening for an episode of the newer Astro Boy anime series and Uran was acting like a brat in a scene or some such and like 15 geeks in the room (male and female) started yelling "stop acting tsundere!!!" I rolled my eyes. It was then that I truly realized how annoying some of these "cute" otaku terms really sounded to objective ears. It doesn't even matter if the term was misused. I just finally got an inkling as to why so many hardcore fans annoy people outside of the fanbase when they talk like that.

Another example is this: I'm talking with someone about why Rikaku in Ocean Waves acts the way she does. Is it because she's never been close to anyone that she holds people at a distance? Has her past conditioned her to be so distrustful and cynical of people that she only uses them as stepping stones?

Then some guy comes over to us and says, "Oh, she's just a tsundere."

And if I venture that her behaviour actually isn't entirely illogical, I just get: "Doesn't matter. She's a tsundere."

Now, how many times have we seen that happen online? How about...A LOT! To me it's a conversation-stopping term used to neatly simplify characters so that when we "review" the show we can minimize it to 1 or 2 soundbites.

It's not that I'm saying "Hey everyone! STOP DOING THIS!" I'm no fool. I'm just pointing out that these terms originate from an inherently male point of view, and a view I think that reeks of sexist undertones. And then you look down the list and see words like "moe" "loli" and you start to see a trend emerge. And it's not anime creators making these terms, it's the fans. By giving these terms life they're just making it easier for lazy anime studios to pander to us.

Of course, that's my opinion only. I know most don't share it and that's totally cool.

bravetailor wrote:

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

Because it's far more common a personality used for female characters than for males. When people see a male romantic interest in a shoujo series that treats the lead like dirt but they ultimately end up as a pair, he tends to be called a jerk or an not-so-nice-person, rather than a tsundere.

I'm not so sure about your first point. There are as many male "types" unique to anime as there are female types. The Shinji Ikari type, as I've mentioned. The "I have no personality, please give me a unique face" type embodied by Keiichi Morisato of OMG! Neither of them have their own otaku-label "terms."

It took me a moment to figure out what you meant by this, until I realized I thought you originally were only talking about why only female characters were labeled as "tsundere" when instead you were talking about why only female characters were labeled. My mistake. (Although I believe it's not uncommon that characters like Keiichi Morisato, or say Keitaro Urashima, are typically labeled as "generic losers". Granted, it's not nearly as memorable or unique a phrase.)

I think I understand your larger point, though. The use of these simplistic and dismissive terms for female characters shut down discussion about potential depth and motivation. That it's not inherently wrong to have a convenient label to quickly explain something, but to never expand understanding of the character beyond the label is at least a little offensive.

Tailor, dude/girl, for the love of God stop mentioning "Shinji Ikari" =)) u did in 3 different consecutive posts =D

On the other hand ... intruding on a very interesting conversation I would like to point out that from the example u gave it was not as much the "tsundere" term that got u upset as it was the teenager-ish behaviour of over-using it ... u gotta understand that people at that age tend to over-use some terms or expressions and that makes them relate to a certain group because humans are social animals that die if left alone Twisted Evil

Anywayz that kind of behaviour could at some times prove really phun (if u're in on it and really-really drunk/or not) Embarassed

... and not necessarily relating to anime or stuff ... I meant the feeling of belonging that teenagers need ...

The term "tsundere" I find useful because it shortens an otherwise unneeded long explanation of a char archetype ... whether it's understood or not correctly that also depends on the party u're having the debate wif Rolling Eyes

Cheers and dun hate terminology ... it is not alive Wink

Perhaps the reason there are few male terms is because most Otaku are male? And if i read right from the previous posts that's where term like this originate. Seriously though there is no reason to cry sexist over categorisation. Women do it all the time and OHSHC even has examples of this. It's just that women are far more subtle about it.

Besides it's about time we dropped the whole sexism banner please? Most women don't want a man who has no masculinity or dominance. And men without such traits have little chance of pleasing one (and im not just talking about the bedroom here). It's about time we just accepted that men are men and women are women and as long as theres no violence/professional discrimination/harassment going on it's perfectly all right for men to be men. Because at the moment I would almost say sexism works the other way round. You can't portray a classic alpha male any more he has to have a massive sensitive side and total respect for women. To fulfill the "anti-sexism" policy to it's utmost means complete sexual equality that means no more Chidori Kaname - a - likes beating up men because it's sexist. Also no more potrayal any man who can't hide his sexuality as having an IQ less than 80. No man has ever complained about this ... because we don't care as long as a character is funny and likeable we don't care what sexism induced stereotypes get plonked on it.

So long story short enough with the Tsundere = Sexist argument because it isn't it's a rough label for a certain personality archetype and it certainly does not describe every facet of a character and never pretend's to.

RHachicho wrote:

So long story short enough with the Tsundere = Sexist argument because it isn't it's a rough label for a certain personality archetype and it certainly does not describe every facet of a character and never pretend's to.

Hmmm can't quite agree on this ... I dun believe the term is sexist or diminishes in any way the quality of a woman char ... sure most women will prolly be upfront and reject this type but me thinks the reason why the term got so popular ain't just the over-popularisation or the excessive use in animes ... in the end if the majority of fans dun like smth then it dies out by itself so long-story short : a real feminist (not the man-haters > Very Happy

) would not have any probs wif the term and neither should "alpha-males" because u can be a strong-willed man that cries at love-stories, for me a man's actions are more important than the facade ... like Mark Twain said : "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Wink

Hmm quite shorthand but I think I get where you are coming from. And I do agree it's hardly a derogatry term. I don't remember saying that men should be completely insensitive though .. just that they shouldn't gush out their emotions at every whim. It's about pride and about radiating that sense of calm assurance that women seem to love. Anyway this aint a man vs woman thread this is about Tsundere's. And like I said before there's nothing sexist or wrong about simple catagorisation. Personally I don't mind em but I do think there are a few too many of them about recently. Time to let other personality archetypes have their time in the sun.

Tsundere - Japanese word mangled by English - noun
Definition (1): slang A female character in an anime or manga often having negative attitudes to a male interest, often referred as a "bitch".

Definition (2): A term used by "otaku" to separate themselves out from other anime viewers as know-it-alls who can't agree on what truly defines the term but will vehemently argue points to those who offer a differing version. It's a common belief those "otaku" using the term pine to be the male lead, regardless how badly he's treated.

Did I get those right?

As for the topic question, I've no opinion on the "type" of anime featuring women who can't convey their emotions. There are good series and there are bad series, and how these are delivered can erase this type of female portrayal instantly.

Take, as an example, The Familiar of Zero. Here we have Louise, who's a noble magi, who conjurs up a human as her familiar. What ensues is a relationship built on being around each other. For better or worse, these stories can be found in real life, though we don't rush to use the term "tsundere" while discussing them.

I loved this series and never gave it a second thought on how Louise acted towards Saito. Why would I? I was more interested to see how the two worked together. Anyone watching these types of series should expect (even if it's not delivered) the two leads will eventually wind up together.

Some of you may be too young, but there was a series called Moonlighting on ABC starring Bruce Willis (yep, it's true) and Cybil Sheppard. The series' entire dynamic was based on the "feud" the two had with each other.

However, the moment they became a couple, the series was canceled as people changed the channel.

The irony here is that never once have I heard the term "tsundere" describing this show, but anime fans can clearly relate this live-action series with a number of anime series.

I'm curious to know if many of you sit and watch a series, pen and paper in hand, then jot down every conceivable term (in Japanese no doubt) so you can rush to a forum and announce what you've witnessed or do you actually just sit back, relax, and try to enjoy what you've invested time and/or money in.

Before someone rushes out to start a new thread on what we think about "moe", "loli", and "fanservice", note my answer here applies to those idiotic terms as well.

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's time to watch another series covered more by labels from fans than what can be printed on the back cover.

Enjoy your day.
Smile

I am definately of the just friggin enjoy it club. Sure I might have preferences but in the end if something is good I will watch it. I know most of these terms simply because someone has said it and I have asked what it meant. Most of the time they don't have much relevance however a few to serve to classify certain trend's in Anime and serve as easy referral.

I am certainly not going OMG its TSUNDERE! i must therefore never watch/watch to death because i love/hate tsundere's. However I use the term to express my dislike for the same character mold being used time and time again and I believe it is justified to do so. Some stuff like the loli trend I am vehemently apposed to simply because it comes dangerously close to promoting sickeningly criminal behavior.

I can't really imagine anyone would actually sit at an Anime with a pen making up terms but frankly I have been proved wrong in this regard by Otaku behavior before. Still I kind of get that you can't really classify an Anime simply by its female lead. That's definately Otaku behavior still it's a major factor. I wouldnt be put off if a female lead was not the type i like but I would be attracted to an Anime that was compatible with my views. However it's just one standard of many I use to rate/judge wether an Anime is worth my time.

I would disagree that such naming conventions are solely the province of eastern animation though. Almost all media types have the same thing to a greater or lesser degree. Indeed many of these terms have becaome commonplace in our society. I don't know enough about this field to give examples however I was assured by a friend of mine that this is so. And he gave me ones I can't remember so your just going to have to take my word on that one.

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