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Maid in the USA - A Visit to Royal/T


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Jadress



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 746
Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:36 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Ah, but you are forgetting the newer phenomena of "Butler" cafes that are becoming more and more popular in Tokyo. Another 3 or so just opened in Ikebukuro. So now it's perfectly fair, right? It's still equality if everyone is exploited the same amount, after all.


Actually I was under the impression that "Butler cafes" employed older men and were usually made to create an atmosphere that allowed the female clientelle feel like wealthy princesses or something like that. So really, there's no exploitation or hot bishounen waiters in outfits that suggest fetish or subservience as far as I know.
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2419
Location: The morally challenged land of cheap guns and expensive health care.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:17 am Reply with quote
midori kou wrote:
We only think poorly of the situation because we think their maid cafe may be like the ones in Japan.

I've been to a maid cafe in Japan and it was more amusing that provocative. Stockings with bows on top that stop just above the knee create the initial appearance of lewdness, but in reality you don't see that much. It's pretty covered up compared to the French maid stereotype and downright conservative compared to what even regular Japanese girls wear to the beach. And don't even get me started on those nipple-proof tops. Japan is the kind of country where every question answered seems to just lead to yet more questions.

Jadress wrote:
So really, there's no exploitation or hot bishounen waiters in outfits that suggest fetish or subservience as far as I know.

If I had the money I'd start one for all the YOWIIIIIIII! fangirls with too much time and money. Yeah, I went there.* Men love to be exploited, so why not? I mean, the reason we don't call men sluts is because there are only a small handful who aren't. >> Wink <<

*Just to clarify, "yeah I went there" refers to the slang phrase, not actually going to a butler club. LOL.

Last edited by daxomni on Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 7336
Location: Hsinchu City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:34 am Reply with quote
Jadress wrote:
Actually I was under the impression that "Butler cafes" employed older men and were usually made to create an atmosphere that allowed the female clientelle feel like wealthy princesses or something like that. So really, there's no exploitation or hot bishounen waiters in outfits that suggest fetish or subservience as far as I know.

Well... while Swallowtail has all its well-trained butlers in formal suits, they are still bishonen (mostly), and many yaoi fangirls find men in suits sexy. While there's no photo on the official website, here is a news coverage. Look how popular it is: all 22 sessions fully booked.

Not to mention that mustached man can be *coupled* with that skinny boy... Embarassed
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:57 pm Reply with quote
There was one here in Toronto but it was shut down because the owner didn't pay the rent. There's also a cleaning service that has sexy maids both male and female. I agree that maid cafés are degrading. I was watching Kelly Osbornes' Turning Japanese show and she was a working at a maid café. Part of her job was to massage men upstairs and she felt too uncomfortable to do it. She asked a woman at the café if she liked her job and she didn't. Most women who do work at Hooters or as strippers have low self esteem and think dressing sexy is the only way to get a man's attention. However, this café doesn't look like one of those maid cafés. It looks Americanized and trying to bring Japanese culture. I wouldn't mind wearing a maid outfit at work because I like the outfit but maid outfits are a sexual fettish and I wouldn't want men starring at me in a lustful way.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-11-29/maid-cafe-in-canada-shuts-down
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2419
Location: The morally challenged land of cheap guns and expensive health care.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:39 am Reply with quote
mistress_reebi wrote:
I wouldn't mind wearing a maid outfit at work because I like the outfit but maid outfits are a sexual fettish and I wouldn't want men starring at me in a lustful way.

As a man myself, I can assure you that we look at women with lusty eyes all the time, in many cases regardless of what they're wearing or doing. The only way I know of to keep that from ever happening is to wear one of those burka things. I mean it's hard to get worked-up over a vaguely defined Halloween costume.

I'm not sure why being viewed as an attractive waitress is supposedly such a horrible thing. I wish I could claim women were looking at me with lust in their eyes! I'd probably start a blog and recap every event in which a girl winked or did a double-take or glanced for an extra moment or anything else that might give away her attraction to me. I'd brag to no end about all the girls who wished I was theirs. The idea of intentionally dressing frumpy just to avoid lusty eyes is simply incomprehensible to my simple masculine mind. Wink
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:02 am Reply with quote
Jadress wrote:
samuelp wrote:
Ah, but you are forgetting the newer phenomena of "Butler" cafes that are becoming more and more popular in Tokyo. Another 3 or so just opened in Ikebukuro. So now it's perfectly fair, right? It's still equality if everyone is exploited the same amount, after all.


Actually I was under the impression that "Butler cafes" employed older men and were usually made to create an atmosphere that allowed the female clientelle feel like wealthy princesses or something like that. So really, there's no exploitation or hot bishounen waiters in outfits that suggest fetish or subservience as far as I know.

To be perfectly honest, I've never been to one, so I couldn't say.
It's not like what works for a maid cafe would work for a butler cafe, anyway, women have very different ways in which they are "turned on", and if it's not the pure hotness of the guys, it's in the way they are treated. Either way, it's appealing to the more banal desires of either sex. Perhaps the butlers are less exploited because men naturally are more attracted to exploitation of the opposite sex than women? That in itself might be construed as sexist Smile.
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:51 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
mistress_reebi wrote:
I wouldn't mind wearing a maid outfit at work because I like the outfit but maid outfits are a sexual fettish and I wouldn't want men starring at me in a lustful way.

As a man myself, I can assure you that we look at women with lusty eyes all the time, in many cases regardless of what they're wearing or doing. The only way I know of to keep that from ever happening is to wear one of those burka things. I mean it's hard to get worked-up over a vaguely defined Halloween costume.

I'm not sure why being viewed as an attractive waitress is supposedly such a horrible thing. I wish I could claim women were looking at me with lust in their eyes! I'd probably start a blog and recap every event in which a girl winked or did a double-take or glanced for an extra moment or anything else that might give away her attraction to me. I'd brag to no end about all the girls who wished I was theirs. The idea of intentionally dressing frumpy just to avoid lusty eyes is simply incomprehensible to my simple masculine mind. Wink


It makes us feel low and uncomfortable when a men looks at us in a perverted way. I have more respect for myself than to be viewed as a sexual object. Double-takes are different since people are thinking, "whoa, who's this person?" and smiles are like, "hey, you're cute." Creepy looks are give the impression, "I wanna rape you," which makes us feel horrible. I've been stalked before and way too many men have been given me lustful looks so I find it scary.
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
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Location: The morally challenged land of cheap guns and expensive health care.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:22 pm Reply with quote
mistress_reebi wrote:
It makes us feel low and uncomfortable when a men looks at us in a perverted way.

I understand what you're saying but how does dressing up like a maid change this? You really think most guys would go from ignoring you or smiling at you to wanting to rape you simply because you put on a maid outfit? Putting on a tiny bikini is one thing, but these outfits are pretty tame IMO. Anyway, sorry if this is offensive, I was just curious why the maid theme is given so much weight.
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Jadress



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 746
Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
mistress_reebi wrote:
It makes us feel low and uncomfortable when a men looks at us in a perverted way.

I understand what you're saying but how does dressing up like a maid change this? You really think most guys would go from ignoring you or smiling at you to wanting to rape you simply because you put on a maid outfit? Putting on a tiny bikini is one thing, but these outfits are pretty tame IMO. Anyway, sorry if this is offensive, I was just curious why the maid theme is given so much weight.


It's because our culture views maid outfits as a sexual fetish. It's not that the clothes in and of itself is bad, and often times they are not even necessarily revealing. It's because history and culture have placed a lot of meaning in the image of a french maid outfit, and it is an image associated with fetish and sexual subservience. Thus if one were to wear clothes that contain are imbued with such cultural meaning, they may get looked at or treated differently.
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
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Location: The morally challenged land of cheap guns and expensive health care.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Jadress wrote:
It's because history and culture have placed a lot of meaning in the image of a french maid outfit, and it is an image associated with fetish and sexual subservience.

You almost make it sound as though the history of sexual innuendo involving unrevealing maid outfits in contemporary America would fill a book. My view is that it's a vague, general connection at best. If I met a girl who dressed up as a maid in a cafe but did nothing beyond bringing the food to my table do you honestly think I would assume she was lose with her ethics and had a penchant for unusual sexual practices? Sorry, but the outfit alone doesn't even come close to selling me on such a conclusion.

Jadress wrote:
Thus if one were to wear clothes that contain are imbued with such cultural meaning, they may get looked at or treated differently.

In my opinion if there is a problem with drooling men then it isn't with the outfit on the woman, but with the views of those who are drooling. If we followed your view to its logical conclusion then perhaps women would be better off if they all dressed just like men. By putting so much weight into the clothes it almost seems like you're taking all the responsibility off the men and putting it entirely on the woman. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Jadress wrote:
It's because our culture views maid outfits as a sexual fetish. It's not that the clothes in and of itself is bad

Clothes aren't bad and neither are fetishes. Nearly everyone seems to have some sort of kink in their desires, yet we pretend we abhor fetishes whenever we're discussing them in mixed company. It's a silly situation that I've never fully understood. I tend to support most of the feminist mantra, but when it comes to viewing fetishes as wrong I simply do not agree. Variety is the spice of life and exploring our fetishes, within reason, helps keep it from getting mundane and ordinary.
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Zin5ki
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:16 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:

Clothes aren't bad and neither are fetishes. Nearly everyone seems to have some sort of kink in their desires, yet we pretend we abhor fetishes whenever we're discussing them in mixed company. It's a silly situation that I've never fully understood. I tend to support most of the feminist mantra, but when it comes to viewing fetishes as wrong I simply do not agree. Variety is the spice of life and exploring our fetishes, within reason, helps keep it from getting mundane and ordinary.


In the case of maid cafés, I find no problem with the clientele embracing their fetishes together, provided the waitresses do not mind being instrumental to their desires. If, as I expect is the case, the maids dislike being viewed as sexual objects, then the sociological state of affairs (i.e a degrading job being the only way to avoid becoming a housewife, as dormcat mentioned) may perhaps be to blame along with the "fetishistic" men who fund the business. I really don't have a strong opinion on this matter however, so feel free to retort.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1007
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:52 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
My view is that it's a vague, general connection at best.


If it were a vague, general connection they wouldn't be dressed as maids. They'd be dressed as waitresses.

Quote:
In my opinion if there is a problem with drooling men then it isn't with the outfit on the woman, but with the views of those who are drooling.


Indeed. But in this case the outfits are specifically designed to attract those men most likely to drool.

Quote:
If we followed your view to its logical conclusion then perhaps women would be better off if they all dressed just like men.


It's one thing for a woman to choose to wear any outfit she wants but quite another thing for that same woman's employer to require her to wear an outfit that sexually objectifies her.

Quote:
Clothes aren't bad and neither are fetishes.


That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint...but context is key. I have no problem with people dressing up in bondage gear (for example) and heading down to their local S&M club. Hell, I don't care if people want to dress up in bondage gear when they go to the post office. But it would be pretty outrageous if the women who worked in a particular bank or supermarket or whatever were obliged to dress in bondage gear (and hired on their ability to look good in it) in the hopes of getting a few more customers through the door.
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Jadress



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 746
Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:25 pm Reply with quote
Dax, you misinterpreted my post. I was simply answering (without any of my personal opinions) what you asked Mistress Reebi, which was essentially "why are maid outfits a big deal/ why would men look at a woman wearing such an outfit any differently than if they wore regular clothes?"

Nowhere did I say that maid outfits or fetishes were "bad." They're not and I believe I expressed this in my post. But it's simple cultural knowledge that if you show *most* people a picture of a girl in a maid outfit, other than thinking of "maid" and "servant" people might also think of "sexy" or "fetish." And nowhere did I say that this lets men off the hook if they act inappropriately towards a girl in maid outfit, so I'm not sure how you saw that as my conclusion. Basically even if you don't personally view maid outfits as sexual, I'd wager that most people in the Western world (and Japan) do. Why else would they sell those outfits at sex shops?

In a perfect world, no one would judge people by the clothes they wear. But the sad fact is that there are still a LOT of people out there who go as far as to literally blame rape victims for their own assault because they were wearing revealing clothes, and that they must have been "asking for it." Anyway, this is getting off-topic, but I just wanted to clarify that I was not saying that maid outfits or fetishes were bad, but I was simply stating that maid outfits are viewed as sexual.
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gyrbot



Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:05 pm Reply with quote
Patachu wrote:
Kotaku's comment on it is still my favorite:

"Since this café is based on places where Japanese nerds go sip milk tea and play paper-rock-scissors, we've decided to add pretentious artsy-fartsy shit to appeal to American hipsters."

I think it really depends on one's perspective which part is the actual gimmick. Razz


It was just what I thought about when I had an idea for maid cafes. An french like atmosphere to it as the hipster culture takes a hold.
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gyrbot



Joined: 26 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:07 pm Reply with quote
Just what I expected. An hipster geared cafe for those who are into the imported french culture
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