Forum - View topic
Scoot Pilgrim Vs. Tokyopop


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Manga
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BellosTheMighty



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 767

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:13 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
I can see what you're saying here. You're absolutely right that fans are often pretty dumb and way to quick to jump on companies for anything and everything. But pick your battles. Do you really have to be a lawyer to recognize that there are some pretty obviously questionable parts to this contract? I think this is probably a case where the fan reaction is really relatively appropriate. If anything what seems a little over the top is how you seem hell bent on defending them. First you say it must not be true because it's so terrible and then when you find out it is, you start rationalizing it and explaining why it isn't really that bad after all. Yeah, fans jump on companies prematurely a lot. But there are certainly also times when companies do screw up. This seems to be one of them.


Yes, I know, and I apologize for being a bit of a ranting ass myself. But it's over with now- the reasonable objectors seem to have won out in the end.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:14 pm Reply with quote
BellosTheMighty wrote:
but he provided backup that was more than just another blogger saying "this is wrong"-

Because, from my perspective, a person should not entrust his career to any random prick with an internet connection.


Well, except this random prick is an established comic artist, and has been since 2003. He has won the Doug Wright Award as well as the Joe Shuster Award, nominated for three Harvey's, two Eagle's and an Eisner Award. One might say he knows something about the workings of the industry.

I don't know if you have had previous "forum battles" with people in this thread and are just bringing it in here with you. Or if you just enjoy being a pompous snatch, and telling everyone how right high and mighty you are and how wrong everyone else is, which you've stated repeatedly. If it is the first, please leave disparagement's in the related threads. If it's the second, it isn't working, and I can tell you right now it sounds like you have more of an axe to grind, than declaring any great points as you claim.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
CorneredAngel



Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 736
Location: New York, NY

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:52 pm Reply with quote
The opinions expressed in this post are the writer's own, and do not reflect any official policy or stand of the Anime News Network.

It's really interesting that the people who are bitching about this whole affair are also the people who have long since made it in comics - in many cases, after ten or more years of gruntwork.

Tokyopop's program is *not* a money-making opportunity for the artist/writer. It's never intended to be. What is is, really, is basically an internship with a stipend, comparable to the thousands of other unpaid summer internships that every high school and college career office will tell you that you NEED to have in order to then get a better chance at a real paying job. Once you prove that you can do this, then maybe, either Tokyopop or another publisher will consider you when looking for someone to bring on for a full-length project.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
tasogarenootome



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 572

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quote
CorneredAngel wrote:

Tokyopop's program is *not* a money-making opportunity for the artist/writer. It's never intended to be. What is is, really, is basically an internship with a stipend, comparable to the thousands of other unpaid summer internships that every high school and college career office will tell you that you NEED to have in order to then get a better chance at a real paying job. Once you prove that you can do this, then maybe, either Tokyopop or another publisher will consider you when looking for someone to bring on for a full-length project.


I think that's a fair assessment. It's a good chance for exposure, just use your best judgement on what you submit (if you have something you're so afraid of TP thieving from you, don't submit.)

I don't like the language or the moral rights thing, but I can see treating it like an internship or just like being a writer who works on the staff of an existing property (s)he doesn't own before getting to pitch their own. The rate of pay I have seen in some blogs is still disappointing though and if people really are bothered by it, the best thing to do is not to submit to Tokyopop. Speak with your actions, I suppose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tasogarenootome



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 572

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quote
Sorry I accidentally double posted.

Last edited by tasogarenootome on Thu May 29, 2008 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:24 am Reply with quote
Tom Spurgeon is the former editor of The Comics Journal, coauthor of a biography of Stan Lee, and longtime respected peer of Heidi MacDonald. Bryan Lee O'Malley and Lea Hernandez are professional cartoonists who have been known figures on the market for years. They can't be dismissed out of hand.

As for Tokyopop's pact, calling it an internship is praising with faint damnation. A good internship doesn't demand total control of your original work on a work-for-hire basis for a measly $20 per page pay rate. That's nuts. Image, Oni, Dark Horse, Slave Labor, Fantagraphics, Picturebox... they all offer better deals than that. Spurgeon, MacDonald, O'Malley, Hernandez and Journalista all speak from experience and context; put together they have more years of experience in the comics biz than anyone on this thread, myself included, is likely to have lived. When they all thunderously denounce a contract, take that seriously. Unless and until someone with equal or greater credibility in this matter (hint: no one on this thread, myself included) launches an informed counterargument, there is no informed counterargument.


Last edited by Aaron White on Thu May 29, 2008 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:29 am Reply with quote
BellosTheMighty wrote:
Aaron White wrote:

Saying that a fledgling creator should go ahead and sign this crappy contract is like saying "No one likes their first job, so you might as well take a job where you get paid a dollar a day and your boss gets to pee on you."


Yep, there it is. I knew the ridiculous analogy was coming sooner or later.


It's not all that ridiculous. A horrible, below-minimum-wage, cynically exploitive "offer" should be called for what it is. The metaphor was chosen with care. Extreme examples are appropriate in the face of extreme cases.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:37 am Reply with quote
Here's Bill Randall. He's a regular contributor to The Comics Journal on manga biz. He's looking to talk with anyone who's actually published with Tokyopop, whether their experience was good or bad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
jgreen



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1324
Location: St. Louis, MO

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:44 pm Reply with quote
Aaron White wrote:
Unless and until someone with equal or greater credibility in this matter (hint: no one on this thread, myself included) launches an informed counterargument, there is no informed counterargument.


Publishers Weekly's Heidi MacDonald steps in to show the other side, but she still concludes it's a pretty raw deal.

Heidi MacDonald wrote:
In the end, we regret not a whit of our righteous anger. The contract is written in an offensive way and the pay is so low that you might as well do it yourself.

...

And yet, reading the responses over on the Tokyopop message board where this is being discussed, it’s hard not to see, as Kiel Phegley put it in the comments here, the young aspirants who really don’t have a [expletive] clue how to do this. We flash back ourselves to our own first published writing, when a penny a word seemed like a king’s ransom, and just the idea of getting published had the whole family, from Tucson to Nyack, excited. It’s easy to imagine young Eloise “Bonzai Trooper”Jones excitedly telling her parents that Toykopop, the #1 American manga publisher, has accepted her “No, teacher! It’s sore!” manga pilot and the family beaming with pride. They don’t care about $20 a page. They just want to see Eloise in print or on a phone or whatever.

Everyone has to learn their craft somewhere. Some young folks may well learn from the Manga Pilots program. They may learn how to get better at their craft, or they may learn what it feels like to get screwed. Everyone will have a different story, we imagine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Tom Spurgeon offers more links (including to Tokyopop's defense) and some more criticism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Manga All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group