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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge
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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:05 am |
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| I just made a post in this thread. |
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grgspunk
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:25 am |
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| DrizzlingEnthalpy wrote: | 'Kay, so pretty much every doujinshi in existence will become illegal?  |
Essentially yes. Assuming it happens, which I highly doubt.
Whether such content is "immoral", "disgusting" or "harmful" probably won't be a factor in determining the outcome of this proposal. I'd say the deciding factors will be "economics" and "money".
A lot of doujins, H-anime, and eroge happen to have loli-type content. If loli were to be banned outright on both the "age" and "appearance" fronts, which is essentially what the UNICEF branch is going for, it would probably shrink the doujin/eroge/H-anime market quite a bit.
Considering the fact that the doujin/eroge/H-anime markets bring in millions of yen into the Japanese economy every year, I don't think the politicians would want to shrink those markets even further than they already have by adding to the list of "banned" content: It'll just mean less money circulating in the economy and less tax revenue. Even if the government thinks such types of content should be outlawed, I'd say the spending power of the Japanese otaku, as well as the unwillingness of Japanese politicians to change, will most likely prevent them from passing such a law.
Regardless of what goes on in the otakus' heads, they do happen to spend a lot of money on various goods, including adult material containing loli content. This means the cash they spend on loli eroge/anime/manga/doujins goes to the companies that produce them, which will help them expand and create more jobs in the economy as a whole. If the companies become even further restricted, they won't be able to reach out to as many people as before, which means less products released, they won't have as many buyers, they won't make as much money, which means they'll have to shrink their business and won't be able to keep as many jobs. You think Japan's government is going to flat-out ignore this side of the equation?
Japan is also feeling the imminent recession kicking in just as much as the United States is. I'd say their government won't be willing to piss off the Japanese otaku if they want to have as much money circulating in their economy as possible.
Last edited by grgspunk on Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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KnightAR
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:33 am |
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| The reason for these types of laws is to protect Children. The law that prohibits the stuff in Manga/Anime is going way too far because there is no "Child" being used in anyway. Loli is Manga/Anime is fiction and so what if someone wants to get off by that type of hentai, let them ... It's not hurting anyone and I doubt anyone who does is going to turn into a paedophile just from that. |
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enurtsol
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Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1310
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:18 am |
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| KnightAR wrote: |
Loli is Manga/Anime is fiction and so what if someone wants to get off by that type of hentai, let them ... It's not hurting anyone and I doubt anyone who does is going to turn into a paedophile just from that. |
Actually, that's the source of many contentious studies still.
If there's any definite conclusion to that, there wouldn't be all these debates. |
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KnightAR
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am |
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| enurtsol wrote: | | KnightAR wrote: |
Loli is Manga/Anime is fiction and so what if someone wants to get off by that type of hentai, let them ... It's not hurting anyone and I doubt anyone who does is going to turn into a paedophile just from that. |
Actually, that's the source of many contentious studies still.
If there's any definite conclusion to that, there wouldn't be all these debates. |
It was just my opinion and I doubt there will be a definite conclusion anytime soon. |
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Garedeas
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:35 am |
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| mistress_reebi wrote: |
Have you read the article? It's about adult porn not child porn.
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Yes. My point still stands. |
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FanFicGuru
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:34 pm |
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| Zac wrote: | | I just made a post in this thread. |
I'm very tempted to go find the "This is a bad post." picture with the snidely whiplash moustache on a fence-post.
>_>
<_<
Anyways, after reviewing the posts I can only say one thing: peoples' desire for underage erotica, including loli manga, will never go away. As long as there have been laws, people have broken them. So, just keep in mind that even if Japan goes through with the virtual aspect of this bill, the people who want to look at this material will just get smarter about it.
Humans evolve that way. Or regress...however you want to see it. |
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BellosTheMighty
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 760
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:16 pm |
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| Zac wrote: | | I just made a post in this thread. |
Careful, boy, pointless one-line posts get you banned. ~_^ |
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Chiaki777
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:10 pm |
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You know guys, I wonder about something.
Child porn, loli, and whether it harms people or not aside.
What gives everyone here the right to tell the Japanese about what they should do about their pornography laws? |
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Mad_Scientist
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 591
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:21 pm |
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| Chiaki777 wrote: | You know guys, I wonder about something.
Child porn, loli, and whether it harms people or not aside.
What gives everyone here the right to tell the Japanese about what they should do about their pornography laws? |
Ehh... I don't see any people here actually expecting the Japanese government to take our opinions into account. But the article was about what the Japanese are considering, and I see no problem with people commenting on it at least. (As long as things remain civil of course.) A message board is generally a place for expressing opinions and discussing things, and I at least so no problem with talking about things that I don't have a direct influence or control on. |
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Chiaki777
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:38 pm |
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| Mad_Scientist wrote: | | Chiaki777 wrote: | You know guys, I wonder about something.
Child porn, loli, and whether it harms people or not aside.
What gives everyone here the right to tell the Japanese about what they should do about their pornography laws? |
Ehh... I don't see any people here actually expecting the Japanese government to take our opinions into account. But the article was about what the Japanese are considering, and I see no problem with people commenting on it at least. (As long as things remain civil of course.) A message board is generally a place for expressing opinions and discussing things, and I at least so no problem with talking about things that I don't have a direct influence or control on. |
True, however, I do feel that some some people really should get their facts straight before they go about talking about this issue. Simply blurting out "all child porn is bad, ban it all" isn't quite discussing anything. Why is it bad? What builds your opinion of such?
Further, I notice that people don't quite make a distinction between American law and Japanese law. Some posters expressed that it should be allowed because the US courts ruled that it harms no real children, and as a right held in the 1st Amendment. Well, the sad truth is, the Japanese don't have as powerful of a "1st Amendment" and same frame of reference. The Japanese allow the censorship of obscene materials and can move to ban whatever media they deem "unsavory."
So again, how do we have the knowledge and say in what the Japanese government does? |
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Sethimothy
Subscriber
Exempt from Grammar rules
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:55 pm |
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| All this talk about legislation banning CP, drawn or otherwise, must have John Oppliger mighty nervous... |
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tygerchickchibi
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 795
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:11 pm |
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| Zac wrote: | | I just made a post in this thread. |
I'm 24 but I look like I'm 12/13...
So, does that make me a live action loli girl? xD
To be honest, I don't know what else to say about it. Personally, I have a high distaste for loli. But I won't be surprised about fetishes that I consider to the extreme. >.>;
I don't personally care if loli gets exterminated, but then they would have to be rid of Yaoi, because you know...That's just so offensive. |
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hontoka
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:05 am |
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Sorry this ended up so long....
I don't have much of an interest or desire in loli, but It certainly doesn't bother me. The same way that when someone dies in a hollywood movie, it doesn't bother me. It's not real, and It doesn't feel real (and I would think this is because it isn't).
But if it's going to be said that loli will lead someone into hurting children, then why is the same NOT said for things much worse than that (such as murder)?
Really. In movies, TV shows, cartoons, video games, comics, plays, and books, people aren't just killed on a regular basis, but in almost everyway possible. Many shows, such as ones like Dexter actually glorify it.
How is it different to be entertained when a character you don't like in your favorite TV show gets "killed of"? By the logic of those who hate lolicon, this will surely make you become a real-life cold blooded killer.
I also don't understand how people can say lolicon is wrong, not in and of itself, but because it COULD eventaully lead SOME people to harm real people. But if this is true (which I find very hard to believe because of examples like I gave above) why not just label those people criminals once they actually commit (or attempt to commit) a real crime? Don't you have to commit a crime to be a criminal? And doesn't it have to cause harm (or at least cause great risk) to be a crime?
I also get the feeling that many anti-loli's felt that lolicon is nearly the same thing as real CP (or at least close to equally wrong), and anyone who likes one likes the other even if they don't admit it. Well then WHY ON EARTH would any of these people look at lolicon when they could just effortlessly download the real CP off the internet? Because if lolicon is just a fix for pedos, wouldn't videos of the real thing be better? It's illegal, but it's out there in full force and we all know it.
I've also heard comments that if the character is a child, then the viewers feelings would be the same towards a real child. But there's a few things about this I also don't understand:
There's no question in my mind that there are attractive anime/manga characters out there. The thing is, to me, it's only because they're a drawing that they're attractive. If you actually took some of these characters and made them real......well that's just a scary thought right there. Let's imagine that for a second:
-- A real person with eyes 2-4 inches in height!!
-- No nostrils (and possible no nose whatsoever)
-- A completely disproportionate figure (and I don't mean like people with dwarfism or other growth issues)
-- They have Vocabulary of someone out of the 1700s
-- (If it's a manga) They have no skin color, and are just white with borders
-- They fall over when someone says something surprising
-- They can transform they're face/body to look "chibi like" at will
Do I need to keep going? Does this not just seem ridiculous?
Well, I think I could keep going on this all day, there's just so many points to make that no one seems to be bringing up (maybe I have odd logic or something -- or maybe I haven't read enough of the loli topics). Oh well.
Hopefully someone who thinks loli should be a crime can explain some of these things, because It just doesn't make sense to me. Thanks! |
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Richard J.
Subscriber
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 2931
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:13 am |
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| Zac wrote: | | I just made a post in this thread. |
Ironically, this poster has almost certainly read "teh rules." He may, in fact, have helped to write them. (They don't apply to exalted beings such as him though.)
Just messing with you Zac, I'm only 46.8% serious.
Well, I've expressed my views on issues like this before. I see no reason to ban fictional depictions of fictional characters regardless of what they are doing or what is being done to them. I don't subscribe to the "it makes people do things" theory for a number of reasons, the main one being that the evidence isn't conclusive enough to codify what is, in my opinion, a crime of thought.
It's the Japanese people's decision (through their government representatives) to make but if I were in charge I wouldn't chose to pass a ban on non-real depictions of any crime, so long as they are reasonably distinguishable from the real thing. There's a difference between the clearly not-real characters in manga and real children/people as hontoka pointed out.
Of course, it's probably best that I'm not in charge since that would lead to socialized anime and real criminals getting harsher penalties. (Feel free to indulge in fantasy all you want. Step over the line and you will be deleted.) |
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