| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
|
VORTIA
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:15 am |
 |
|
First the ban drawing it, then they ban writing about it. Then they ban talking about it and thinking about it. All must submit to conformity! In fact, let's not stop here, let's ban representations of other undesirable things, like rape of adults, and graphic murder. Oh, and how about muggings? Nobody likes muggings. Seeing one could inspires someone to mug someone. Oh! I know! Let's outlaw talking about Communism! And Unions! And Criticizing your government! Let's prevent people from complaining about the lack of effective policing in their area because it just emboldens criminals, and let's prevent people from commenting on human rights violations, because, seriously, it's just going to work people up for nothing.
Slippery slope people, slippery slope.
No matter how disgusting or wrong, what someone says, or expresses by non-verbal means, is their basic right to expression. If we start taking that away, it's back to dictators & dark ages for all of us. |
| Back to top |
|
|
Shadowrun20XX
 Subscriber
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 908
Location: Las Vegas ~Hardcore Otaku
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:19 pm |
|
|
| Chiaki777 wrote: | You know guys, I wonder about something.
Child porn, loli, and whether it harms people or not aside.
What gives everyone here the right to tell the Japanese about what they should do about their pornography laws? |
Wha? Posting in a forum,doesn't get things done? We police the world,we make it our business. |
| Back to top |
|
|
mistress_reebi
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:36 pm |
|
|
| Gamen wrote: | Lord Almighty, are you seriously suggesting a documentary as a source for factual information? I mean, they almost always mistake correlation for causation, which is a big no-no.
|
Because journalists who spend their lives researching subjects must know nothing. I guess we can ignore biographies on people, even this website because journalists know nothing! 
| Rika-chama wrote: |
It's different because it's fantasy. Many people enjoy slasher films but not real life murder. Lolis are fantasy and are drawn and therefor no children are harmed. The same goes for guro which I've met the nicest people on guro and loli sites. So should horror movies be outlawed because the viewer is getting entertained by murder? Reality and fantasy are two different things. I know people who love violence in movies but detest it in real life and the same goes for loli. Most of us are not pedophiles and only like the drawn stuff. No one is hurt, no one is exploited, I see no harm. |
That's a bad point since one man in Quebec was so engrossed in violent content (had owned banned video games, anything that would make average violent movie fans hurl) that he went to Dawson College and shot anyone in site. Sometimes, fantasy isn't enough. The difference for people who watch CP (explains it better on Doc Zone) is that it isn't enough. Take an alcoholic for example, if they are surrounded by alcoholic they will take a drink. If paedophiles (those who are arroused at seeing children, even if it's drawn there is still the arrousal) are surrounded by CP they are more likely to snap than paedophiles who aren't invovled in CP. How do you know no children were harmed, what if they used children as models are references?
| Quote: | | Yes. My point still stands. |
Explain
| Quote: | | I also get the feeling that many anti-loli's felt that lolicon is nearly the same thing as real CP (or at least close to equally wrong), and anyone who likes one likes the other even if they don't admit it. Well then WHY ON EARTH would any of these people look at lolicon when they could just effortlessly download the real CP off the internet? Because if lolicon is just a fix for pedos, wouldn't videos of the real thing be better? It's illegal, but it's out there in full force and we all know it. |
Downloading CP will get you into a lot of crap. In some countries, they are labeled a sex offender even with one picture. It's not something you wanna download. So, paedophiles download loli-hentai in order to get the same result but without the consequence. By your logic, regular hentai isn't concidered pornography. People are jerking-off to loli-hentai as well as the real thing. How is that different? They may be two different formats but it creates the same result: aroused at children in sexual situations.
Edit:
| Quote: | | Considering the fact that the doujin/eroge/H-anime markets bring in millions of yen into the Japanese economy every year, I don't think the politicians would want to shrink those markets even further than they already have by adding to the list of "banned" content: It'll just mean less money circulating in the economy and less tax revenue |
Just because it's good for the economy doesn't make it moral. That's like saying if we burn all trees to build things is the right thing because it helps the economy.
| Quote: | | Slippery slope people, slippery slope. |
Now you're exaggerating. That's like saying if we ban cellphones in cars cellphones will be banned in the near future. |
| Back to top |
|
|
Gamen
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 19
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:46 pm |
|
|
| mistress_reebi wrote: | | Gamen wrote: | Lord Almighty, are you seriously suggesting a documentary as a source for factual information? I mean, they almost always mistake correlation for causation, which is a big no-no.
|
Because journalists who spend their lives researching subjects must know nothing. I guess we can ignore biographies on people, even this website because journalists know nothing! |
Actually, I do distrust biographies and articles to a great extent (Though this site mainly calls attention to and reiterates press releases, so I trust it more than I do other sources), however that's not what I meant. Journalists' and documentarians' jobs are to report facts, not make conclusions or do studies. Since you were sourcing Doc Zone, I assumed that the study and conclusion came from Doc Zone and not a reliable source. Was I wrong in my assumption and Doc Zone was actually citing a real study?
Edit: I should probably clarify what I'm looking for. I can't think of a way to do such a study that would get accurate numbers. Since possession of child porn is a victimless crime (no party to the crime is the victim), you can't know who's committed the crime unless they do something stupid, which tells you nothing of how many people have child porn. Therefore, you can't really say that possessors of child porn are X more likely to molest children. If Doc Zone or whoever it's citing found a method to get accurate statistics, I would be very interested.
One, it would help the argument that banning lolicon hentai is appropriate, since a significant number use it as a substitute, and thus it would in fact result in harm to children.
Second, I develop software, and it would affect the decision of what software I work on if I knew one application was more likely to result in harm to children than another. |
| Back to top |
|
|
VORTIA
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:03 pm |
|
|
| mistress_reebi wrote: |
Now you're exaggerating. That's like saying if we ban cellphones in cars cellphones will be banned in the near future. |
Not at all. Precedent is a major influence in law. If you set the precedent that someone's expression may be limited because it might encourage criminal activity, then very quickly you open up to discussion whether or not to ban this or that speech, art, or expression. In the United States, uprotected speech is only that which can cause direct harm. Unless the Lolicon artist is raping little girls for inspiration, there is no direct harm from the lolicon artist expressing himself. Guys everywhere aren't raping adult women just because there is porn readily available, so I fail to see how this is an argument in the case of lolicon. |
| Back to top |
|
|
Hon'ya-chan
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 905
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:03 am |
|
|
Okay, time for a guessing game.
Here is a picture of a "schoolgirl."
If I told you she was over 21, would you believe me? |
| Back to top |
|
|
hontoka
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:34 am |
|
|
21, at least.
Although, I'm usually pretty bad with ages. |
| Back to top |
|
|
Ramadahl
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 323
Location: MK, UK
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:32 am |
|
|
| Hon'ya-chan wrote: | Here is a picture of a "schoolgirl."
If I told you she was over 21, would you believe me? |
Oh man, think I've seen that one... and that ain't no girl! 
(  )
Also, oh wow, mistress-reebi is posting her views on cp/loli/porn. Again. Like that other time. And the one before that, and the one before that...
And some things never change, huh?
Just a word to everyone debating the matter with her, you may be wasting your time on this one.
Keeping my post short... I'll say that enforcement of social crime is just a step on the road to dystopia, and as such potentially far more dangerous and horrific than a few people gettin' jollies off to some drawings. |
| Back to top |
|
|
tygerchickchibi
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 795
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:49 pm |
|
|
| Hon'ya-chan wrote: | Okay, time for a guessing game.
Here is a picture of a "schoolgirl."
|
"schoolgirl" is right.
Definitely a trap. |
| Back to top |
|
|
hontoka
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:30 am |
|
|
| mistress_reebi wrote: | | Downloading CP will get you into a lot of crap. In some countries, they are labeled a sex offender even with one picture. It's not something you wanna download. So, paedophiles download loli-hentai in order to get the same result but without the consequence. By your logic, regular hentai isn't concidered pornography. People are jerking-off to loli-hentai as well as the real thing. How is that different? They may be two different formats but it creates the same result: aroused at children in sexual situations. |
That's a good point. I was looking at it from the eyes of a loli-fan, and not the eyes of a pedo. I gotta say, that helped me get a better perspective on this. So I rephrased my point below, after the quote from Hon'ya-chan:
| Hon'ya-chan wrote: | Okay, time for a guessing game.
Here is a picture of a "schoolgirl."
If I told you she was over 21, would you believe me? |
I don't know if you were trying to make a point or not, but it did get me thinking.
First of all, I don't find it hard to believe that, that's a boy. It reminds me of a show in Japan that takes males and dresses them up to look like females. Example below:
Now, if a straight male were to find any of the males in those images sexy, would that make him gay? Even if he knew they weren't really women?
Would that mean he would actually want to pursue men in real life?
Actually, would he even still think they were sexy in real life?
I would think that it would become unignorable that whatever the fantasy or thoughts were from the images, just don't exist face-to-face. For one, they make look girly, but they're voices sure aren't. They're height sure isn't. And neither is their facial hair, muscle structure, etc.
If you can't see how this relates to lolicon, I can partially understand. They aren't the same thing at all. But in this example, they have two VERY similar points.
The fantasy is instantly killed when it meets reality, because reality isn't anything close to what that persons fantasy was like.
For the vast majority, all lolicon fans see and know this. Which is why (at least from my understanding of the loli-fans out there), people can enjoy lolicon, and at the same time be disgusted by any kind of real-life alternative. Because to a pedo, there is no difference, but to the vast majority, there is.
The difference, as I already said is fantasy. If a person can't seperate the two, or comes at it from the opposite direction (ie. enjoys the reality, and thus the fantasy is seen completely differently), THEN I CAN SEE not allowing lolicon, FOR THOSE PEOPLE (in the same way guns are allowed, except not to those who shoot people).
And since everyone else actually sees the world differently, it's not dangerous or harmful for the rest of the world, so banning it from those who do see the difference won't help. And certainly just banning it "just to be safe", or "because I see no benefit from it" are even worse reasons ---- I can explain my reasons for that if anyone wants.
On a seperate note, after seeing people say "slippery slope people" like 10-20 times, I just can't resist commenting on that.
I definitely agree with it being a bad direction for the law to go in. Once the assumption/decision is made that actions/fantasies should be treated the same then laws like this one will begin to apply to anything/everything with similar logic.
Be it murder, robbery, or whatever else you might find in entertainment.
Why would one law now effect/create more laws?
Well, why the hell not?
To the law, sexual fantasies and killing fantasies, don't have enough of a difference to NOT be plopped into the same category. Because as I just tried to explain to a criminal, they don't see the difference between fantasy/reality. So the same logic still applies (even if it's a different group of criminals), right?
Again, if anyone finds a problem with anything I said, I'd love to hear it. I don't have in interest in changing your mind, I'm really just here to learn about myself (even if it's makes me look stupid to the rest of you and if 99% of what I say never even gets acknowledged). |
| Back to top |
|
|
Hon'ya-chan
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 905
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:35 am |
|
|
| Ramadahl wrote: | | Hon'ya-chan wrote: | Here is a picture of a "schoolgirl."
If I told you she was over 21, would you believe me? |
Oh man, think I've seen that one... and that ain't no girl!
( ) |
| tygerchickchibi wrote: | "schoolgirl" is right.
Definitely a trap. |
Stop browsing 4chan, she has all the female parts. Your trap-dar is going wonky.
| hontoka wrote: | | Hon'ya-chan wrote: | Okay, time for a guessing game.
Here is a picture of a "schoolgirl."
If I told you she was over 21, would you believe me? |
I don't know if you were trying to make a point or not, but it did get me thinking. |
The point is can you seriously without a doubt tell me thats someone under the legal age or not? And if I provided proof, would you still believe me??
It's like this image I saw on 7chan once. Guy posts a pic, and several other guys claim it's Child Porn. SURPRISE, guy provides the link that yes, the pic is legit (And from a public site as well, because who would be stupid enough to post something illegal on a public website that has tons of hits a day?). The mods delete anyway. |
| Back to top |
|
|
mistress_reebi
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:02 am |
|
|
[quote=Ramadahl]Also, oh wow, mistress-reebi is posting her views on cp/loli/porn. Again. Like that other time. And the one before that, and the one before that...
And some things never change, huh?
[/quote]
lol, I'm from Canada and we take CP very seriously so it's a culture shock to see people defending virtual CP when in our minds it's the same thing. Whenever I tell my friends their reactions are so disgusted, which was the same reaction I had when I learned about loli-hentai.
| hontoka wrote: |
I don't know if you were trying to make a point or not, but it did get me thinking.
First of all, I don't find it hard to believe that, that's a boy. It reminds me of a show in Japan that takes males and dresses them up to look like females. Example below:
Now, if a straight male were to find any of the males in those images sexy, would that make him gay? Even if he knew they weren't really women?
Would that mean he would actually want to pursue men in real life?
Actually, would he even still think they were sexy in real life? |
No, the man wouldn't be gay because those photos represent women. Yes, they are men but they are dressed up as a woman. I'm hetrosexual but I have homosexual friends and if you ask a homosexual they will say there is more to being gay than liking a person of the same gender. In this case, it's not even liking someone the same gender because that's a photo of someone who looks like a woman. Just like loli-con the drawing represents a child.
| hontoka wrote: |
If you can't see how this relates to lolicon, I can partially understand. They aren't the same thing at all. But in this example, they have two VERY similar points.
The fantasy is instantly killed when it meets reality, because reality isn't anything close to what that persons fantasy was like.
For the vast majority, all lolicon fans see and know this. |
Have you proof? Can you ask every single loli-hentai fan in the world if they just like the drawings?
| hontoka wrote: |
Which is why (at least from my understanding of the loli-fans out there), people can enjoy lolicon, and at the same time be disgusted by any kind of real-life alternative. Because to a pedo, there is no difference, but to the vast majority, there is.
The difference, as I already said is fantasy. If a person can't seperate the two, or comes at it from the opposite direction (ie. enjoys the reality, and thus the fantasy is seen completely differently), THEN I CAN SEE not allowing lolicon, FOR THOSE PEOPLE (in the same way guns are allowed, except not to those who shoot people).
And since everyone else actually sees the world differently, it's not dangerous or harmful for the rest of the world, so banning it from those who do see the difference won't help. And certainly just banning it "just to be safe", or "because I see no benefit from it" are even worse reasons ---- I can explain my reasons for that if anyone wants.
On a seperate note, after seeing people say "slippery slope people" like 10-20 times, I just can't resist commenting on that.
I definitely agree with it being a bad direction for the law to go in. Once the assumption/decision is made that actions/fantasies should be treated the same then laws like this one will begin to apply to anything/everything with similar logic.
Be it murder, robbery, or whatever else you might find in entertainment.
Why would one law now effect/create more laws?
Well, why the hell not?
To the law, sexual fantasies and killing fantasies, don't have enough of a difference to NOT be plopped into the same category. Because as I just tried to explain to a criminal, they don't see the difference between fantasy/reality. So the same logic still applies (even if it's a different group of criminals), right? |
You just proved my point: it's a fantasy. Let's read the definition of Fantasy:
(Cambridge Dictionary)
| Quote: | fantasy
noun [C or U]
a pleasant situation that you enjoy thinking about, but which is unlikely to happen, or the activity of thinking itself:
Steve's favourite fantasy was to own a big house and a flashy car.
|
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in loli-hentai and there are children in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to see children in sexual situations. They become aroused at seeing children in sexual situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since sexually abusing children is very real. |
| Back to top |
|
|
zargas
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Nebula M78
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:45 pm |
|
|
| mistress_reebi wrote: |
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in loli-hentai and there are children in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to see children in sexual situations. They become aroused at seeing children in sexual situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since sexually abusing children is very real. |
You know, a crap argument deserves a crap response. So let's bring out some simple search-replace with copy-paste. This doesn't deserve any more brainpower and effort than that anyway.
Argument to ban bloody media:
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in bloody slasher movies and there are knives and people in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to see people in bloody situations. They become excited seeing people in bloody situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since stabbings are very real.
Argument to ban romance media:
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in scandalous romance movies and there are people in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to see people in adulterous situations. They become excited seeing people in adulterous situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since adultery is very real.
Argument to ban high-speed car chases in the media:
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in dangerous car chase scenes and there are cars in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to see cars in dangerous chase situations. They become excited seeing cars in dangerous chase situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since car chases and dangerous car accidents are very real.
Argument to ban food in the media:
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in a restaurant scene and there is food in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to see food in appetizing situations. They become excited seeing food in appetizing situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since food and the health risks of obesity are very real.
Argument to ban shouting in the media:
The reason why a fantasy is unlikely to happen is because there isn't the opportunity. (ie. winning the lottery) However, if someone enjoys what they see in a loud shouting scene and they have voices in reality, who is to say that they can't make their fantasy a reality. After all, they want to hear voices in loud situations. They become excited hearing voices in loud situations. They have that desire. Explain why wouldn't this happen in real life since shouting, disturbance of the peace and hearing loss are very real.
EDIT: let's throw in a little bit extra, just 'cause I feel like it.
| mistress_reebi wrote: |
lol, I'm from Canada and we take CP very seriously so it's a culture shock to see people defending virtual CP when in our minds it's the same thing. Whenever I tell my friends their reactions are so disgusted, which was the same reaction I had when I learned about loli-hentai.
...
| hontoka wrote: | The fantasy is instantly killed when it meets reality, because reality isn't anything close to what that persons fantasy was like.
For the vast majority, all lolicon fans see and know this. |
Have you proof? Can you ask every single loli-hentai fan in the world if they just like the drawings? |
His argument actually carries more weight than yours, since by your own admission you and all your friends don't deal with that kind of stuff at all, and in fact cannot due to the laws of your country. Therefore he probably has a more accurate assessment of the situation than you do. He can't do the impossible and personally ask every single fan out there, but you can't even do what is possible and personally ask one. |
| Back to top |
|
|
Hon'ya-chan
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 905
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:14 pm |
|
|
| mistress_reebi wrote: | | lol, I'm from Canada and we take CP very seriously so it's a culture shock to see people defending virtual CP when in our minds it's the same thing. Whenever I tell my friends their reactions are so disgusted, which was the same reaction I had when I learned about loli-hentai. |
And I ask: Who's getting hurt by virtual reality?? |
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Anime Castle
Robert's Anime Corner Store
AAA Anime Distribution
Big Bad Toy Store
