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Shai-Lang



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:43 pm Reply with quote
I'd like to open up a discussion about something that is never clarified in the manga but is an important part of Shigure's character. The dream he has of Akito that makes him fall in love with her and want to possess her. Honestly I think it's an ingenious idea and made Shigure even more mysterious than he already was, however I would of liked to know just why exactly he fell in love with Akito in the dream at first sight but none of the others did...... He even says how she seemed so familiar to him and how he wanted to capture that feeling and make it his...... It really makes you wonder just what happened in Shigure's past or if he and Akito were connected in some way in their previous lives....

What's great about this plot element though is that it leaves a lot to work on for us fic writers, it's great fodder for fanfiction and we can come up with any explanation possible as to why Shigure felt the way that he did about that dream of Akito, I'd like to hear what everyone's explanation is for that. For me I find it a great way to crossover Fruits Basket with Sailor Moon since the dreams fit so well with the dreams Mamoru had of the Moon Princess and how they were lovers in a past life. What's your take on it......
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classicalzawa
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:26 am Reply with quote
massive spoilers for everyone btw:

spoiler[Well Shigure, being one of the Zodiac members, clearly had near-worship like feelings for Akito at first much like everyone else in the Zodiac. But Shigure was likely going too far on this, he wanted to have Akito all to himself, and the only way to do that was to break the curse, right?
Ok so who challenged Akito to let Tohru stay with Shigure and not have her memory wiped? Ren. Who slept with Ren? Shigure (probably helps to note that a grown up Akito would look a lot like Ren). Also, who was one of the only four Zodiac members to know Akito was female? Shigure was among them, so if he wanted to fall in love with god, he had less competition if everyone else though Akito was a dude. So it helps than Ren's dislike of Akito caused her to be raised as a guy.
Tohru easily helped Shigure since while Akito may have been the god of the Zodiac by birth, Tohru's healing spirit definitely helped break the curse and was the one treated more like a god by the Zodiac members (well the younger ones at least). Perhaps shifting focus to Tohru was also key to breaking the curse?

So while I still don't get why Shigure loved Akito, it's entirely possible he manipulated an awful lot of the plot in order to break the curse just so he can be with Akito with no interference from other members. But at least he seems to feel sorry for what he did, he doesn't seem to outright regret it, but he does at least feel sorry for being a manipulative bastard. It's possible one of the younger members might have fallen in love with Akito too, except they all though Akito was a guy and by the time they found out they didn't care. Kureno was staying with Akito out of obligation and Hatori and Ayame both fell in love with someone else. So his older competition seemed out of the way. I'm going to go with taking the Zodiac thing too far though, I can't think of many other reasons for a teen to fall in love with a toddler under normal circumstances.]


Well, those are my thoughts on Shigure, though TVTropes' character page pointed out a lot of these to me.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:07 am Reply with quote
classicalzawa wrote:
massive spoilers for everyone btw:

spoiler[Well Shigure, being one of the Zodiac members, clearly had near-worship like feelings for Akito at first much like everyone else in the Zodiac. But Shigure was likely going too far on this, he wanted to have Akito all to himself, and the only way to do that was to break the curse, right?
Ok so who challenged Akito to let Tohru stay with Shigure and not have her memory wiped? Ren. Who slept with Ren? Shigure (probably helps to note that a grown up Akito would look a lot like Ren). Also, who was one of the only four Zodiac members to know Akito was female? Shigure was among them, so if he wanted to fall in love with god, he had less competition if everyone else though Akito was a dude. So it helps than Ren's dislike of Akito caused her to be raised as a guy.
Tohru easily helped Shigure since while Akito may have been the god of the Zodiac by birth, Tohru's healing spirit definitely helped break the curse and was the one treated more like a god by the Zodiac members (well the younger ones at least). Perhaps shifting focus to Tohru was also key to breaking the curse?

So while I still don't get why Shigure loved Akito, it's entirely possible he manipulated an awful lot of the plot in order to break the curse just so he can be with Akito with no interference from other members. But at least he seems to feel sorry for what he did, he doesn't seem to outright regret it, but he does at least feel sorry for being a manipulative bastard. It's possible one of the younger members might have fallen in love with Akito too, except they all though Akito was a guy and by the time they found out they didn't care. Kureno was staying with Akito out of obligation and Hatori and Ayame both fell in love with someone else. So his older competition seemed out of the way. I'm going to go with taking the Zodiac thing too far though, I can't think of many other reasons for a teen to fall in love with a toddler under normal circumstances.]


Well, those are my thoughts on Shigure, though TVTropes' character page pointed out a lot of these to me.


Yeah but it still doesn't make sense because then why did Shigure only commit himself to Akito and didn't make bonds with anyone else outside the family like the others did? Why did he choose to remain with her even after the curse was broken and that feeling he had from that dream was supposedly gone? Why did he feel that way about the dream, when the other three (Kureno, Hatori and Ayame) didn't?

IMO it's a big plot-hole and I find the whole dream aspect of it really similiar to Sailor Moon. By the way are you a fan of Sailor Moon at all^^
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Aylinn



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:18 am Reply with quote
Shai-Lang wrote:

Yeah but it still doesn't make sense because then why did Shigure only commit himself to Akito and didn't make bonds with anyone else outside the family like the others did? Why did he choose to remain with her even after the curse was broken and that feeling he had from that dream was supposedly gone? Why did he feel that way about the dream, when the other three (Kureno, Hatori and Ayame) didn't?

I think you are reading too much into it. You may as well ask why does Y love apples so much when X loves oranges? It's just how it is. Shigure fell in love with Akito. That's all. Even if it seems unconvincing to you that he ends up with someone he dreamt about, you shouldn't forget that he and Akito lived together under the same roof for many years. By the time Fruits Basket takes place, Akito is not just a girl form his dream, which he had many years ago, but someone very real. Someone with whom he shared part of his life and a very intimate relationship.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:12 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Shai-Lang wrote:

Yeah but it still doesn't make sense because then why did Shigure only commit himself to Akito and didn't make bonds with anyone else outside the family like the others did? Why did he choose to remain with her even after the curse was broken and that feeling he had from that dream was supposedly gone? Why did he feel that way about the dream, when the other three (Kureno, Hatori and Ayame) didn't?

I think you are reading too much into it. You may as well ask why does Y love apples so much when X loves oranges? It's just how it is. Shigure fell in love with Akito. That's all. Even if it seems unconvincing to you that he ends up with someone he dreamt about, you shouldn't forget that he and Akito lived together under the same roof for many years. By the time Fruits Basket takes place, Akito is not just a girl form his dream, which he had many years ago, but someone very real. Someone with whom he shared part of his life and a very intimate relationship.


But he himself keeps saying that the reason he's after Akito is because of that dream... And it's kinda hard to believe he or anyone would fall in love with Akito for herself, considering how awful her personality was before she changed.

By the way did you get my PM^^
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Aylinn



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:50 pm Reply with quote
Shai-Lang wrote:

But he himself keeps saying that the reason he's after Akito is because of that dream...

I think it is something like love at first sight. He felt something and he was chasing after that feeling ever since, making their bond stronger, making it go beyond the bounds of the curse.

Shai-Lang wrote:

And it's kinda hard to believe he or anyone would fall in love with Akito for herself, considering how awful her personality was before she changed.

Why not? Shigure is not a paragon of virtue either. He also has his darker side. They are both twisted and I think they make an interesting and ideal couple. I like it that they are so refreshingly different from most couples in shoujo manga.

I have a hard time trying to imagine Shigure with any other girl from Fruits Basket.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Shai-Lang wrote:

But he himself keeps saying that the reason he's after Akito is because of that dream...

I think it is something like love at first sight. He felt something and he was chasing after that feeling ever since, making their bond stronger, making it go beyond the bounds of the curse.

Shai-Lang wrote:

And it's kinda hard to believe he or anyone would fall in love with Akito for herself, considering how awful her personality was before she changed.

Why not? Shigure is not a paragon of virtue either. He also has his darker side. They are both twisted and I think they make an interesting and ideal couple. I like it that they are so refreshingly different from most couples in shoujo manga.

I have a hard time trying to imagine Shigure with any other girl from Fruits Basket.


Yeah I love the couple as well, they're also my favorite couple and characters in all of Furuba^^ It's just that Shigure's reasons for falling in love with Akito as well as his whole character really confuses me and seems like to me it's a huge gaping plot-hole by Takaya-sensei.

It also seems to me like Shigure doesn't truly love Akito for herself, and only loves her because of that dream, like he feels its his destiny or something.

I mean, think about it. Remember in volume 19 he said to Tohru how he wished he could of dreamed about someone like her instead?

Especially since it seems Shigure really doesn't get along with Akito all that well before the curse is broken (I know its due to the whole Kureno and Ren issue but still...)

And I don't know... I just felt like that dream was something different for Shigure than the other 3, like he saw something different from them but Takaya just never got around to explaining it. It really felt like it was something meant to be explained though.
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Aylinn



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:54 am Reply with quote
Shai-Lang wrote:
Yeah I love the couple as well, they're also my favorite couple and characters in all of Furuba^^ It's just that Shigure's reasons for falling in love with Akito as well as his whole character really confuses me and seems like to me it's a huge gaping plot-hole by Takaya-sensei.

It also seems to me like Shigure doesn't truly love Akito for herself, and only loves her because of that dream, like he feels its his destiny or something.

I got a completely different impression. I think that Shigure loves Akito despite her flaws, not because she is some idealised goddess of purity and innocence. And the dream only provided a stimulus to their relationship.

Quote:
I mean, think about it. Remember in volume 19 he said to Tohru how he wished he could of dreamed about someone like her instead?

Maybe he said those things to Tohru because Akito has a difficult personality and he sometimes gets a bit tired. I think you really over-analyse that situation. If Shigure wanted to be with someone else, he would be with someone else. (I feel a bit awkward to write such things about a fictional character Laughing)

Quote:
Especially since it seems Shigure really doesn't get along with Akito all that well before the curse is broken (I know its due to the whole Kureno and Ren issue but still...)

But Shigure got along with Akito before the whole Kureno and Ren issue.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:38 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Shai-Lang wrote:
Yeah I love the couple as well, they're also my favorite couple and characters in all of Furuba^^ It's just that Shigure's reasons for falling in love with Akito as well as his whole character really confuses me and seems like to me it's a huge gaping plot-hole by Takaya-sensei.

It also seems to me like Shigure doesn't truly love Akito for herself, and only loves her because of that dream, like he feels its his destiny or something.

I got a completely different impression. I think that Shigure loves Akito despite her flaws, not because she is some idealised goddess of purity and innocence. And the dream only provided a stimulus to their relationship.

Quote:
I mean, think about it. Remember in volume 19 he said to Tohru how he wished he could of dreamed about someone like her instead?

Maybe he said those things to Tohru because Akito has a difficult personality and he sometimes gets a bit tired. I think you really over-analyse that situation. If Shigure wanted to be with someone else, he would be with someone else. (I feel a bit awkward to write such things about a fictional character Laughing)

Quote:
Especially since it seems Shigure really doesn't get along with Akito all that well before the curse is broken (I know its due to the whole Kureno and Ren issue but still...)

But Shigure got along with Akito before the whole Kureno and Ren issue.
I guess what I'm trying to understand is why did Shigure continue to love Akito and put up with her even after she betrayed him like that with Kureno.
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Kelly



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:44 pm Reply with quote
Shai-Lang wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to understand is why did Shigure continue to love Akito and put up with her even after she betrayed him like that with Kureno.


I guess the same reason real life people put up with things - as the saying goes, love is blind. Shigure saw something beautiful in her, buried by Ren's abuse and the curse, that he wanted to save. Unfortunately, he was so blinded by that that he let alot of other people get hurt to achieve his goal - and sometimes even instigated the crisis in some cases like the Summer House incident involving Tohru and Momiji to get what he wanted. It's also notable that there's no sign in the manga that he's ever going to be punished for what he did and/or allowed to happen. At least it seemed like Akito herself realized the weight of what she's done, wants to redeem herself, and will probably get the chance being that she's dealing with some remarkably forgiving people like Yuki and Kureno.

As for the dream, the curse is a very mysterious thing that we're perhaps not meant to fully understand. We may never know the reasons for Shigure's dream, the same way we'll never know why three of the Sohmas were released from the curse before the others, as there seems to have been no particular pattern; or why some of the Zodiac members were able to overcome their biological predisposition to adore Akito and tell her what she could do with herself but others were not. Maybe it was the God in Akito instinctively calling out to the person it sensed was her soulmate, as twisted as their relationship was.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:24 am Reply with quote
Kelly wrote:
Shai-Lang wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to understand is why did Shigure continue to love Akito and put up with her even after she betrayed him like that with Kureno.


I guess the same reason real life people put up with things - as the saying goes, love is blind. Shigure saw something beautiful in her, buried by Ren's abuse and the curse, that he wanted to save. Unfortunately, he was so blinded by that that he let alot of other people get hurt to achieve his goal - and sometimes even instigated the crisis in some cases like the Summer House incident involving Tohru and Momiji to get what he wanted. It's also notable that there's no sign in the manga that he's ever going to be punished for what he did and/or allowed to happen. At least it seemed like Akito herself realized the weight of what she's done, wants to redeem herself, and will probably get the chance being that she's dealing with some remarkably forgiving people like Yuki and Kureno.

As for the dream, the curse is a very mysterious thing that we're perhaps not meant to fully understand. We may never know the reasons for Shigure's dream, the same way we'll never know why three of the Sohmas were released from the curse before the others, as there seems to have been no particular pattern; or why some of the Zodiac members were able to overcome their biological predisposition to adore Akito and tell her what she could do with herself but others were not. Maybe it was the God in Akito instinctively calling out to the person it sensed was her soulmate, as twisted as their relationship was.


Yeah of course, we all know how selfish Shigure is and that he'll do whatever it takes to get what he wants, even hurt innocent people. Again, what I don't understand is how could he still have wanted Akito after what she had done to him? He should of just been done with her after that kind of betrayal! It's amazing how he still managed to love her.

As for the dream Shigure had, put it anyway you want but the fact it was never explained was a big gaping plot hole. Again, it seemed Takaya-san was going to explain more about Shigure and the dream but me thinks she was probably still recovering from that arm injury and thus wanted to end the manga as soon as possible, even if it meant not tying up loose ends.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Shai-Lang wrote:
Kelly wrote:
Shai-Lang wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to understand is why did Shigure continue to love Akito and put up with her even after she betrayed him like that with Kureno.


I guess the same reason real life people put up with things - as the saying goes, love is blind. Shigure saw something beautiful in her, buried by Ren's abuse and the curse, that he wanted to save. Unfortunately, he was so blinded by that that he let alot of other people get hurt to achieve his goal - and sometimes even instigated the crisis in some cases like the Summer House incident involving Tohru and Momiji to get what he wanted. It's also notable that there's no sign in the manga that he's ever going to be punished for what he did and/or allowed to happen. At least it seemed like Akito herself realized the weight of what she's done, wants to redeem herself, and will probably get the chance being that she's dealing with some remarkably forgiving people like Yuki and Kureno.

As for the dream, the curse is a very mysterious thing that we're perhaps not meant to fully understand. We may never know the reasons for Shigure's dream, the same way we'll never know why three of the Sohmas were released from the curse before the others, as there seems to have been no particular pattern; or why some of the Zodiac members were able to overcome their biological predisposition to adore Akito and tell her what she could do with herself but others were not. Maybe it was the God in Akito instinctively calling out to the person it sensed was her soulmate, as twisted as their relationship was.


Yeah of course, we all know how selfish Shigure is and that he'll do whatever it takes to get what he wants, even hurt innocent people. Again, what I don't understand is how could he still have wanted Akito after what she had done to him? He should of just been done with her after that kind of betrayal! It's amazing how he still managed to love her.

As for the dream Shigure had, put it anyway you want but the fact it was never explained was a big gaping plot hole. Again, it seemed Takaya-san was going to explain more about Shigure and the dream but me thinks she was probably still recovering from that arm injury and thus wanted to end the manga as soon as possible, even if it meant not tying up loose ends.
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willag
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:03 am Reply with quote
Something that I always wondered about was how Shigure was like a dog, and how much the cursed Zodiac member's personalities were affected by their animal. Tohru was often trying to figure out which animal the Zodiac members turned into based on their personalities. Isuzu was stubborn, Momiji was hyperactive, Kyo liked high places and liked his independence in the beginning, etc. According to many pet-lovers, one of the most well-established qualities of a dog is loyalty. And all throughout FB I didn't think Shigure really showed much of that quality until the end when he was still willing to dedicate himself to Akito despite their troubled past.

But then I realized something - he was a lot more loyal in the past, before the relationship got rocky. He was the one most obsessed with her, most seeking of her attention, and those are dog-like qualities. That might be a reason for his initial dedication and "love" for her - his dog-like zodiac qualities were shining through. And that's probably the reason for his reaction to the dream - he's the dog and the others aren't, therefore, he's the most loyal and seeking the most attention from her.

However, he was a selfish, manipulative man (not due to being one of the Zodiac, but because that is what his true personality was like), and as his desire to break the curse grew more, so did those qualities. His disloyalty to Akito was both his way of punishing her (after cheating on him with Kureno), but also as an active way to fight the curse, I believe. Because the dog would demand loyalty, he would fight to remain disloyal.

And as for his reason for staying with her in the end and fighting so hard to be with her? I think he genuinely fell in love with her over time and wanted to be with her as Shigure the man, not Shigure the loyal dog. And I think Akito felt the same way about Shigure. It's a twisted relationship given their personalities and how they were abused and abused each other, but they still wanted to be together and work beyond it. Their relationship was definitely one of the most passionate and most intriguing to watch. I quite liked it.
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Shai-Lang



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 pm Reply with quote
willag wrote:
Something that I always wondered about was how Shigure was like a dog, and how much the cursed Zodiac member's personalities were affected by their animal. Tohru was often trying to figure out which animal the Zodiac members turned into based on their personalities. Isuzu was stubborn, Momiji was hyperactive, Kyo liked high places and liked his independence in the beginning, etc. According to many pet-lovers, one of the most well-established qualities of a dog is loyalty. And all throughout FB I didn't think Shigure really showed much of that quality until the end when he was still willing to dedicate himself to Akito despite their troubled past.

But then I realized something - he was a lot more loyal in the past, before the relationship got rocky. He was the one most obsessed with her, most seeking of her attention, and those are dog-like qualities. That might be a reason for his initial dedication and "love" for her - his dog-like zodiac qualities were shining through. And that's probably the reason for his reaction to the dream - he's the dog and the others aren't, therefore, he's the most loyal and seeking the most attention from her.

However, he was a selfish, manipulative man (not due to being one of the Zodiac, but because that is what his true personality was like), and as his desire to break the curse grew more, so did those qualities. His disloyalty to Akito was both his way of punishing her (after cheating on him with Kureno), but also as an active way to fight the curse, I believe. Because the dog would demand loyalty, he would fight to remain disloyal.

And as for his reason for staying with her in the end and fighting so hard to be with her? I think he genuinely fell in love with her over time and wanted to be with her as Shigure the man, not Shigure the loyal dog. And I think Akito felt the same way about Shigure. It's a twisted relationship given their personalities and how they were abused and abused each other, but they still wanted to be together and work beyond it. Their relationship was definitely one of the most passionate and most intriguing to watch. I quite liked it.


Ahh so you don't think that that dream Shigure had of Akito that made him fall in love with her was a plot-hole? Because I was always confused as hell by that part^^
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Serieve



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:55 pm Reply with quote
Here is my interpretation:

I think that they did all love Akito--but not in the same way. They definitely did not all feel a romantic love. Kureno gave her a sort of pity-love, like the way that Kagura loves Kyo. Hatori seems to love her as a child or someone to take care of (I'm thinking of how he held her in vol. 17 after the fight with Ren).

Shigure, however, loves her romantically from the beginning. If you recall, at one point he says that he's "the most cursed of all"--because he loves her truly. His love is not forced (or if it was, it was only in the beginning), unlike with Kureno (who is forcing himself to stay with her despite not wanting to--you could see why that would make Shigure angry) and the others. Even if Shigure were not cursed, he would still love her--and that's why he says he is perhaps the most cursed. He's bound even beyond the curse.

I don't know that I would say he loves her just because of the dream, though. If you argue that the dream was just a plot-hole to make him love her, then the curse could be considered a plot-hole as well, which I don' t like, since it's part of the premise of the series.

I think what Shigure is actually talking about when he talks about the dream is a feeling of yearning--which I think is a feeling common among dreams. You have this sad, beautiful, poignant dream--one that fills something you didn't know you were missing--and then you wake up and it's gone. Shigure and the others all felt that way, but Shigure was the only one who kept feeling that way. The others realized that they were cursed and their feelings were forced, and their feelings became conflicted. Shigure had the opposite reaction; he wanted to keep that feeling, to deepen his bond with Akito, but she flitted away.

Shigure as a whole is a fascinating character to me, and I've been trying to puzzle him out for a while now.

Quote:
Remember in volume 19 he said to Tohru how he wished he could of dreamed about someone like her instead?


I would also really like to know what he means by that. My only guess so far is that he realizes that his personality is wrong and twisted in ways, and maybe if he had yearned for Tohru, he wouldn't be the way he is now... but I'm not really satisfied by that answer.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to puzzle him out.
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