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Mindless Watcher
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 68
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 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:02 am |
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| Moomintroll wrote: | | you do realise there was entertainment long before there was an internet ... |
... or copyright. |
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bradc
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Location: Aizen's Pants
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:52 am |
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| Moomintroll wrote: | | bradc wrote: | | I guess entertainment will become utterly moot. Without 1) Audio 2) Video 3) Visual 4) Graphics. Everything gone with the wind like for every censorshipping and taking away what entertainment is and become the ultimate Internet Blackout. |
I'm not taking a stance on whether or not this is a good move but...you do realise there was entertainment long before there was an internet on which to illegally distribute it?
Also, "censorshipping" isn't a word and even if it was, you'd be misusing it in this context.
| Quote: | | Business companies now a days just sum up one word of: Greedy. |
Whereas in the good old days the business world was all about altruism and philanthropy?  |
Censorshipping of what they can control what we can watch and what we can't watch being Internet Nannys. Pretty much sums up about the situation where they only allow certain videos on Youtube to be watchable and what are the fans are going to now? Because they are not allow to make AMV and mix Anime Parody videos and not knowing what content is allow to be uploaded without remove automatically from the website.
Fans and customer are base that built itself from the ground up from buy, sell, trade, and everything commerce. I guess when you take away the ground and everything; it's just going collapse, including what the business and companies are made up that are buy, sell, trade and everything commerce.
When a person who's a government or president of company are too busy worrying about their own business income; they forget that everything else exist and wiping it out. With now a days with the global economical slow down and high inflation, I guess we have companies and presidents to blame for these causes. |
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Moomintroll
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1007
Location: Nottingham (UK)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:01 am |
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| bradc wrote: | | Censorshipping of what they can control what we can watch and what we can't watch being Internet Nannys. |
"Censorshipping" still isn't a word.
| Quote: | | Pretty much sums up about the situation where they only allow certain videos on Youtube to be watchable |
Saying that a corporation's refusal to host the intellectual property of other companies without permission is "censorship" is...flawed.
If a government, company or other organisation ever stops you from accomanying your own animation with your own music and distributing it on the internet, you'll have a point.
| Quote: | | and what are the fans are going to now? |
I'd like the answer to be:
"Find something better to do with their time."
I predict, however, that the answer will be:
"Carry on distributing the same pointless, derivative, self-congratulatory rubbish through other streaming services, torrents or whatever other channels they can find."
| Quote: | | Fans and customer are base that built itself from the ground up from buy, sell, trade, and everything commerce. I guess when you take away the ground and everything; it's just going collapse, including what the business and companies are made up that are buy, sell, trade and everything commerce. |
You think AMVs are the ground upon which the anime industry rests? The industry must be in even worse health than I thought...
| Quote: | | When a person who's a government or president of company are too busy worrying about their own business income; they forget that everything else exist and wiping it out. With now a days with the global economical slow down and high inflation, I guess we have companies and presidents to blame for these causes. |
Okay. So most companies put profits above all else and governments and corporations are largely to blame for the state of the global economy. I'm with you so far.
I just don't understand what you think has changed since the dawn of the industrial revolution a couple of centuries ago? |
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zargas
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Nebula M78
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am |
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When a media corporation stomps out MADs, it is a betrayal of their obligation to their shareholders that they maximize profit and minimize operating costs.
Fan-created MADs do not compete with official products. They don't give you the original story, nor the original music, nor the original experience. Rather, they are free advertisement for, and thus increase the profitablility of, the products involved in the MAD. Furthermore, simply doing nothing and letting MADs exist is a passive effort, and does not increase operating costs of the business.
On the other hand, without MADs there is less advertisement and thus less profitability. Furthermore, stomping out MADs is an active effort that increases operating costs, cutting into profitability even more. And then there's also the bad PR that goes with being in an adversarial relationship to your core audience.
As publicly owned corporations, these companies have an obligation to maximize shareholder value and minimize their operating costs. If only the businessmen would realize that MADs are a great source of easy profit, and that trying to stop MADs is wasting money, in direct violation of their obligation to their shareholders. Just because MADs are technically copyright infringement doesn't mean that it's in their best interests as a business to stop them. |
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BellosTheMighty
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 760
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:52 am |
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| Moomintroll wrote: | | bradc wrote: | | Censorshipping of what they can control what we can watch and what we can't watch being Internet Nannys. |
"Censorshipping" still isn't a word.
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It does sound kind of like a genre of fanfiction, though... |
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Kiyoko
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:54 am |
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| zargas wrote: | When a media corporation stomps out MADs, it is a betrayal of their obligation to their shareholders that they maximize profit and minimize operating costs.
Fan-created MADs do not compete with official products. They don't give you the original story, nor the original music, nor the original experience. Rather, they are free advertisement for, and thus increase the profitablility of, the products involved in the MAD. Furthermore, simply doing nothing and letting MADs exist is a passive effort, and does not increase operating costs of the business.
On the other hand, without MADs there is less advertisement and thus less profitability. Furthermore, stomping out MADs is an active effort that increases operating costs, cutting into profitability even more. And then there's also the bad PR that goes with being in an adversarial relationship to your core audience.
As publicly owned corporations, these companies have an obligation to maximize shareholder value and minimize their operating costs. If only the businessmen would realize that MADs are a great source of easy profit, and that trying to stop MADs is wasting money, in direct violation of their obligation to their shareholders. Just because MADs are technically copyright infringement doesn't mean that it's in their best interests as a business to stop them. |
I think out of all the posts here, it couldn't have been said better.
And just to prove a point, if it weren't for AMV's and MAD's, I would not have become a fan and invested money in the following:
Evanesence
Chrono Crusade
D.Gray-Man
King of Bandit Jing
Linkin Park
Nightwish
The Blues Brothers
Shaun of the Dead
Tsubasa Chronicles
Nightwalker
And probably many more I don't remember. If I hadn't seen fan-made productions featuring those anime/music artists, I may never have been exposed to them otherwise, and not have purchased their DVD's/CD's/Manga.
And you have to admit, most of the time, official trailers for anime series really suck and don't give you as good of an impression. |
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HeeroYuy135
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:13 pm |
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| BellosTheMighty wrote: | | They're not going after Hatsune-chan, are they? There will be some serious unpleasantness if they do, I can tell you that... |
According to the AnimeNation Podcast released today, they're not. |
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Hon'ya-chan
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:40 am |
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| zargas wrote: | When a media corporation stomps out MADs, it is a betrayal of their obligation to their shareholders that they maximize profit and minimize operating costs.
Fan-created MADs do not compete with official products. They don't give you the original story, nor the original music, nor the original experience. Rather, they are free advertisement for, and thus increase the profitablility of, the products involved in the MAD. Furthermore, simply doing nothing and letting MADs exist is a passive effort, and does not increase operating costs of the business.
On the other hand, without MADs there is less advertisement and thus less profitability. Furthermore, stomping out MADs is an active effort that increases operating costs, cutting into profitability even more. And then there's also the bad PR that goes with being in an adversarial relationship to your core audience.
As publicly owned corporations, these companies have an obligation to maximize shareholder value and minimize their operating costs. If only the businessmen would realize that MADs are a great source of easy profit, and that trying to stop MADs is wasting money, in direct violation of their obligation to their shareholders. Just because MADs are technically copyright infringement doesn't mean that it's in their best interests as a business to stop them. |
I have never seen such arrogance from the fandom in all my life. Wow. |
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zargas
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Nebula M78
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:14 am |
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| Hon'ya-chan wrote: |
I have never seen such arrogance from the fandom in all my life. Wow. |
Yes, your ad hominem dismissal is quite arrogant. Please drop the personal attacks and stick to the issues, instead of acting like the very arrogant fans you so decry. |
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Chiaki777
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:37 am |
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| at least there's Touhou |
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Raiden Kitsune
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:21 am |
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Several years back, I found a Kenshin AMV online, when I was first getting into anime in general. I had no idea who this "Ayumi Hamasaki" person who did the song in it was, but the song was amazing, so I looked her up, and yes, I downloaded a ton of her stuff to check it out.
At this point, between my girlfriend and I, we have every major release Ayu has put out, at least a dozen remix CDs, nearly every one of her concert DVDs, and tons of other random goodies, all of them legally (and expensively) imported.
There was this other video I found, to Balder Force, that used "Face of Fact" from KOTOKO. I'd also never heard of her. I have every one of her CDs now, several concerts, as well as tons of stuff from the other I've girls I discovered through her.
Then there's the Rasmus, Nightwish, Imogen Heap, Vienna Teng...dozens upon dozens of artists I'm in love with now, and willing to buy anything they put out, that I never would have even known existed if I hadn't found them in an AMV first.
They must be really upset about all the advertising, hmm? |
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Hon'ya-chan
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:09 pm |
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| zargas wrote: | | Hon'ya-chan wrote: |
I have never seen such arrogance from the fandom in all my life. Wow. |
Yes, your ad hominem dismissal is quite arrogant. Please drop the personal attacks and stick to the issues, instead of acting like the very arrogant fans you so decry. |
I am. Your advocating what amounts to personal entitlement. "I made this MAD/AMV, so the companies have to bow down to me and thank me for keeping them afloat thru my efforts of using their IP and another persons IP." Well it doesn't exactly work that way. In the eyes of the law, the company is in the right, and those MAD/AMV are illegal. |
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zargas
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Nebula M78
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:17 pm |
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| Hon'ya-chan wrote: | | I am. Your advocating what amounts to personal entitlement. "I made this MAD/AMV, so the companies have to bow down to me and thank me for keeping them afloat thru my efforts of using their IP and another persons IP." |
No. You are projecting feelings into my statements where there are none. When did I ever say anything about being thankful and bowing down, or any sort of personal entitlement? I was talking entirely in terms of profitable and unprofitable actions, because in the end it is those actions that determine whether or not a company survives or goes bankrupt. Feelings of gratitude (and any other feelings such as arrogance and entitlement) are irrelevant and don't figure into this.
| Quote: | | Well it doesn't exactly work that way. In the eyes of the law, the company is in the right, and those MAD/AMV are illegal. |
Yes, they are technically illegal, and it is the company's right to prosecute if they so choose. But an equally applicable portion of the law that is often overlooked in online discussions on copyright infringement is that the act of prosecution remains at the discretion of the company (since copyright infringement is a civil matter, not a criminal matter). What this means is that companies prosecute not only based on legality, but also on profitability. For example, numerous incidents of copyright infringement occur all the time via forum avatars. A company could choose to prosecute, especially in countries with no Fair Use clauses. However, is it in their best business interests to prosecute against such a thing?
I am not saying that the anime companies do not have the right to prosecute against MADs. They quite clearly have the legal right to do so. But the legal right is only half of the matter. What I am questioning is whether or not prosecuting against MADs is the best business action for them. Companies are not perfect and make poor business decisions all the time (the anime industry is actually quite notorious for having poor business sense, especially with the recent rash of cutbacks and bankruptcies), so it is not unreasonable that every now and then that their judgement be questioned. |
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Steroid
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 324
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:03 pm |
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The problem I have is that some of these MADs are good, or if not good, take a lot of work. On Youtube, you can see one of the MADs comprising around thirty songs, but where the video is from Super Mario World, only the levels are edited so that the sound effects are in time and harmony with the songs. So to break it down:
Work not done by the MAD creator(s):
Writing the lyrics
Recording the bgm
Programming the basics of Super Mario
Work done by the MAD creator(s):
Singing the songs
Making the medley
Mixing the bgm/sung parts
Editing the Super Mario game
Harmonizing SMW with the songs
By my view, more work goes into creating the video from the amateurs than the owners of the copyrights. If that's wrong, we should turn around and say that the songs used in the video are wrong, since the people who made them didn't invent musical instruments and singing.
But even if we do find a difference, it's still a lot of work willingly done by amateurs for no purpose other than having a nice video to watch and impress people with. Where do we allow them an outlet for that work if we have to maintain the copyright holders' rights?
I hate to be the anti-corporate conspiracy theory guy, but I can't help suspecting that it may not be protection of their works that they're after, but squelching competition. I get the feeling that if they could force removal of all Youtube videos, even the ones filmed at home with a cam-corder, they would, since time spent watching them is time lost watching the companies' products. You can get a pretty good spate of entertainment from free content like on Youtube, and advertising-funded content like on Hulu, and never have to actually spend cash. I think that's causing some sleepless nights. |
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Moomintroll
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1007
Location: Nottingham (UK)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:47 am |
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| Steroid wrote: | | By my view, more work goes into creating the video from the amateurs than the owners of the copyrights. |
That's probably the single most stupid thing I've heard all week. And I've heard a lot of stupid things this week.
| Quote: | | Where do we allow them an outlet for that work if we have to maintain the copyright holders' rights? |
If they're as talented and industrious as you say, they can create their own content and distribute it through their own outlets. I mean if, as you seem to think, editing video and music clips is more difficult than creating video games then producing original animation, recording original music and building a streaming audio-visual website should be a walk in the park. |
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