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NEWS: Judge Compares Anime File-Sharing to Stealing Bread


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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 7207
Location: England, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:24 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
If I steal your car, then you don't have it anymore. You can't drive it, you can't do shit. If I copy your car........then I'm a genius, but you still have your car. You can drive in it and stuff. Only now I also have a copy of your car.
But if I'm selling copies of my car to pay my mortgage and you copy my car without my permission, and then allow anyone to do the same for free, because I need to sell every copy without fail? What have you done? Wink

Last edited by Mohawk52 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Proman



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 947
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:25 pm Reply with quote
That comparison really was a bit inappropriate.
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bradc



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:26 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
Are still on the "downloading is stealing" thing? How is it hard to understand?


downloading = copying something that does not belong to you without paying

stealing = taking something that does not belong to youwithout paying AND depriving somone of that something

Exept for the "something that does not belong to you without paying", how are they the same?

If I steal your car, then you don't have it anymore. You can't drive it, you can't do shit. If I copy your car........then I'm a genius, but you still have your car. You can drive in it and stuff. Only now I also have a copy of your car.


You still want that Honda, Toyota, Subaru or Mitsubishi? Laughing
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DmonHiro



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 1838
Location: Romania, Bucharest

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:31 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Mohawk52"But if I'm selling copies of my car to pay my mortgage and you copy my car without my permission, and then allow anyone to do the same for free, because I need to sell every copy without fail? What have you done? Wink[/quote]

I did a bad and maybe ilegal thing, but I didn't steal. That's what i'm saying
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calawain



Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 192
Location: New York, NY

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:30 pm Reply with quote
Just goes to show that even if you are a judge, it doesn't mean you know jack about technology. Frankly, that's not too far from a lot of older judges here in the States. Most state judges are elected, and they don't have to take a computer class to be voted in as a criminal judge. So it's not too surprising that someone like that would make the silly comparison of making digital copy to thieving a piece of bread.
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:41 pm Reply with quote
testorschoice wrote:

A well-known anime uploader faces prison time from a judge who thinks uploading anime is like stealing and sharing bread. That's boring and not news?


The first part is somewhat newsworthy (but boring), touché. The latter is not.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 6864
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:55 pm Reply with quote
I presume it must be that long and skinny French bread. otherwise how would it fit through the series of tubes?

I expect the defense will likely counter by suggesting that in actuality, it is like taking bread and magically duplicating it and giving it out for free. They will then file a motion to dismiss on the grounds that "if Jesus did it, it must be OK."

The thing you have to keep in mind in all this though is that pursuant to "comparisons v. common sense (1998)" comparisons have been ruled to be "stupid" and therefore irrelevant. In said case, common sense argued that contrary to comparisons assertion, "stuff is not like some other stuff" rather "shit is what it is".

The supreme court later upheld this decision on the basis that while it is very easy to try and make comparisons to something such as stealing (thereby allowing the knee jerk reaction of stealing = bad, this = stealing, this = bad, burn them at the stake!!!) in reality whether something = bad is dependent on its actual effects. Not what semantic term you label it under.

For this reason I would recommend the prosecutors focus on the point that "file sharing hurts the industry" and drop the comparison to stealing since as I said, any such comparisons will likely not hold up in any higher court where common sense is present.
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loka



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 363
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:55 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
DmonHiro wrote:
If I steal your car, then you don't have it anymore. You can't drive it, you can't do shit. If I copy your car........then I'm a genius, but you still have your car. You can drive in it and stuff. Only now I also have a copy of your car.
But if I'm selling copies of my car to pay my mortgage and you copy my car without my permission, and then allow anyone to do the same for free, because I need to sell every copy without fail? What have you done? Wink


ruined your business model. some people would scream move on to you. i'm not quite as obnoxious. not every business model survives the ages.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:13 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
DmonHiro wrote:
If I steal your car, then you don't have it anymore. You can't drive it, you can't do shit. If I copy your car........then I'm a genius, but you still have your car. You can drive in it and stuff. Only now I also have a copy of your car.
But if I'm selling copies of my car to pay my mortgage and you copy my car without my permission, and then allow anyone to do the same for free, because I need to sell every copy without fail? What have you done? Wink


Who says you have the fundamental right to own copies of your car merely because the original was yours? It's an innate part of humanity and the existence of the these things that copying is possible. It's perfectly natural. On the other hand, I think in fairness that copying to the extent profitability and compensation is impossible is equally preposterous.

I'll follow you this far, it isn't necessarily beneficial to copy in every single circumstance. I'll agree that because the original copy requires so much effort and work it deserves sufficient return to recoup the investment of time and resources and all of that. The question, then, is what is the best and most efficient way of providing fair compensation for the investment, to allow reasonable profit on the part of the entity (person/company) who created the original copy. At one time, the system of copyright made some sense for this purpose, and it still does work to some extent. The problem is that things have changed drastically. The amount of people who can copy is literally millions of times higher than what would have been capable to have done so in the past. A system that formerly prevented the freedom of a few hundred now does so for millions.

I know some say this is no big deal, and that the freedom should go on being prevented for the benefit of everyone, but I question the judgment of that because I think there is more value in the world we have in place now than people realize. What we need to do is concentrate on finding a reasonable replacement for copyright that doesn't require the restrictions. Yes there will be some costs associated with that, and a bit of trial. But I think the cost to overall freedom of society is much much higher from trying to maintain copyright in a modern world. The amount of people restricted, the necessary requirements to ensure restriction, etc are simply far too high.
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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 1039

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:18 pm Reply with quote
maichips wrote:
I think a more accurate comparison (involving bread) would include actually stealing bread/food from animators and their families, ne?


This is one that makes more sense, but it always goes into a duplication argument, which is NOT the point. >_>;
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testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 465

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:25 pm Reply with quote
omoikane wrote:
testorschoice wrote:

A well-known anime uploader faces prison time from a judge who thinks uploading anime is like stealing and sharing bread. That's boring and not news?


The first part is somewhat newsworthy (but boring), touché. The latter is not.


Most people don't think facing more than a year in prison is "boring." Smile Having a defense lawyer criticize a judge's flawed rationale is also definitely newsworthy in Japan. It's one reason why the newspapers in Japan reported on it.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:27 pm Reply with quote
tygerchickchibi wrote:

This is one that makes more sense, but it always goes into a duplication argument, which is NOT the point. >_>;


Yes, but the point that is being made is contingent on the downloader and what they would/would not have done had a fansub been unavailable. An analogy needs to be applicable in every case in order for you to be allowed to ram it down everyones throat and tell them how guilty they should feel.

You simply cannot say that all downloaders would otherwise be buying anime if fansubs did not exist. You can say that some downloaders would, but certainly not all or even most. A significant number? Perhaps, but the fact is your point would only apply to that group.

I'd think a better job would be done convincing people that they should buy, than that they should stop downloading, or that others should stop doing what they like by supplying a show to other fans who in many cases can't buy (either due to lack of availability in their area, or finances, or simply because they would prefer to preview before a purchase... something that anyone who gets to watch the shows on TV has a chance to do).

Whenever one throws about words like "stealing" or analogies about taking food off tables, it is far more likely that most will shut down, or avoid argument, or ignore the statement than for it to accomplish the goal. If the analogy isn't agreeable to the other side, why continue using it? It's only preaching to the choir.
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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 1039

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:55 pm Reply with quote
I didn't expect you to write me a novel on that, but thanks for sharing.


xD No, I'm not trying to be arrogant, I suppose I didn't expect a rebuttal, but meh, even so, positive methods are being tried out now.

I'm not talking about fansubs in particular, in fact, I don't even know where this topic came up. I just meant in terms of the judge saying that to the defendant, I guess, and the analogy that someone pointed out that I agreed with, and just acknowledged it.

Anime is still a business, and people do need money to keep creating. And sadly, no one cares about that...and it kinda gives me the feeling that the anime industry has become a bit of a slave drive.

xD Sorry, I'm not on the same boat with you on this, I think were in two different ones.
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hikaru004



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2302

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:00 pm Reply with quote
testorschoice wrote:
omoikane wrote:
testorschoice wrote:

A well-known anime uploader faces prison time from a judge who thinks uploading anime is like stealing and sharing bread. That's boring and not news?


The first part is somewhat newsworthy (but boring), touché. The latter is not.


Most people don't think facing more than a year in prison is "boring." Smile Having a defense lawyer criticize a judge's flawed rationale is also definitely newsworthy in Japan. It's one reason why the newspapers in Japan reported on it.


Well the attorney has to do something to gain public opinion because his client is toast.
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DarkMirage



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:49 pm Reply with quote
When someone commits murder, we don't have to say that he is stealing a life.

When someone commits rape, we don't have to say that he is stealing carnal knowledge.

When someone drinks and drives, we don't say that he is potentially stealing the personal safety of those around him.

When someone defames a person, we don't say that he is stealing the person's reputation.

There is a reason why copyright infringement has its own section in the law. Copyright infringement is not theft. Theft involves lost of property. If copyrights were real properties that could be stolen, then they should be taxed. But they aren't, and for good reasons.

Whether or not you believe that copyright infringement should be considered a crime, and whether or not you support fansubbing, it is simply intellectually dishonest to claim that copyright infringement is theft. It is a fallacious appeal to emotions.
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