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REVIEW: Honey and Clover GN 1-2


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cally-chan



Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:45 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
cally-chan wrote:

And I never said someone was supposed to be swayed by my oppinion. A review is supposed to be unbias and at least I can say that other than the reviewer who basically said "I don't like it, so it sucks"

I'm not the reviewer, I'm just stating what I think. Bias or not.


First of all, opinion is spelled with one P.

Secondly, you're not asking the reviewer to be "unbias" (you mean to say "unbiased") you're asking them to either agree with you or present their opinion in such a fashion where it is obvious that they believe they could be wrong, which is a silly thing to demand.

Reviews are opinions. They are not simply plot summaries or an attempt to sell the product to people who might like said product.



LOL Sorry Mr. English teacher that I made a mistake and misspelled a couple words Wink

What I'm saying is that yes some of a review are opinions, but her WHOLE review was HER opinion. You have to also state facts as well. I'm not asking that she like it, because ofcourse she doesn't have to(we all have our likes and dislikes) but to say that whoever likes H&C doesn't expect much, is quite the insult to it's fans. The whole review was more like a rant than stating it's bad and good points.
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ArielTsuki



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:58 pm Reply with quote
Acinom wrote:
Dedication, not ambition. It's the only quality that I can think of that would slightly redeem Hagu's character. But just because she's dedicated, doesn't mean she's ambitious.


You don't have that much dedication without some sort of ambition with it. Hagu does have ambition that reveals later in the story. spoiler[Her ambition to create all the many ideas swimming in her head into physical form as much as she can in her lifetime, and a lesser one, is to show how she sees the world through her eyes. A simple artist's ambition, yes but nonetheless it is one.]

Zac wrote:
Reviews are opinions. They are not simply plot summaries or an attempt to sell the product to people who might like said product.


True, true. But this review wasn't even a proper negative review and I think that's why fans of it was heavily disappointed in it. When fans of the series who didn't like Hagu saw how the reviewer shut down Hagu like that actually defend Hagu's character, something's wrong. And the reviewer totally bypassed the other characters, leaving with only one line of description, even for Takemoto, who is the main character for this part of the series for just to get her (?) thoughts on Hagu, which was a paragraph long.

Oh and that she said that it didn't deserve its award was too extreme.

Honey and Clover isn't a masterpiece or anything, and I can point out flaws about it, but it seemed she didn't hit any except that it's slow to start for some.

I've read her Switch review and find it was too negative as well (and not to mention she made comparison the manga to titles that came after the manga where she believed it took from).
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domino



Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 236
Location: ponta can

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:07 pm Reply with quote
I guess there really are more people out there who think Hagu is more creepy than cute, which is okay. I know people like Hagu in real life, so she was easier for me to accept. But hating her out of perceiving her as a short over-submissive sex object just seems so very, very wrong to me. She's never in any kind of fanservice situation and the boys are never LUSTING after her -- they're in love out of a quiet admiration.

Not liking Honey and Clover is perfectly fine and I'm all for people defending their opinions, but when the bottom line of a review on a site that's supposed to have a professional air is "I hate this show because it's popular and because the main character is short and pours tea and that's sexist", it has me twitching. The entire review could have been replaced with the words "this sucks because it's boring I give it an F-" and I would have been more satisfied.
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Orange_Popsicle



Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:17 pm Reply with quote
Wow.

This is probably the first time I have strongly disagreed with a review.

I really like Honey and Clover. I mean, sure, it can be a little slow sometimes, and I can understand that it's not for everyone, but still.
And, well, I can't quite figure out why you think Hagu is repulsive. I mean, at first she is a little odd, but her kind of odd personality does get less... odd as the story goes on. I mean, I guess her shortness is a little creepy, but some of my best friends are as short as she is, so I really pay it no heed.

I mean, to some extent, it isn't as deserving of all the hype it's gotten as other shoujo titles like Nana, but it's still good for what it is.
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Kyokat



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:31 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
For all the complaining, Casey's review has inspired what is probably the most intelligent discussion we've had about an anime or manga series in a long while.


Are you sure it's her review and not the fact that Honey & Clover's audience naturally skews older and more emotionally mature?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 4298
Location: Death Star Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:40 pm Reply with quote
Kyokat wrote:

Are you sure it's her review and not the fact that Honey & Clover's audience naturally skews older and more emotionally mature?


If you want to suggest I'm giving her review too much credit you might want to make that argument without giving way too much credit to Honey & Clover fans.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1008
Location: Nottingham (UK)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:42 pm Reply with quote
championferret wrote:
I'm a female, and I do not find moe (or at least, the moe I watch/enjoy) sexist at all.


Well, if you entirely ignore the cultural subtext, I can see how you might think that...

Quote:
So when people get all "this is sexist, you shouldnt watch this', it's like... gee, telling me what I can and can't watch isnt sexist?


a) I don't recall the review telling you "this is sexist, you shouldnt watch this".

b) A reviewer telling you what you can and can't watch (which Casey didn't) would be problematic for all sorts of reasons but, no, sexism wouldn't be one of them. Not unless said reviewer restricted their prohibition to viewers of one sex or the other at any rate.

championferret wrote:
Okay, so now you're calling me 'patronizing' towards one of my best friends for thinking she's cute.


You say she's charming and enormously intelligent. But she's short, cute and Asian so you reduce her to the level of an otaku cliché - a sort of walking, talking lifesize plushie - by constantly refering to her as "moe". And you don't think that's patronising?

So, based on what you said, yes - I think that's enormously patronising. If I misunderstood what you said, I apologise. Otherwise, I stand by my remark.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 8418

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:11 pm Reply with quote
Moomin:
Quote:
How is whether or not something is as good as its peers not a reasonable criteria for a reviewer? That just doesn't make sense.


It's not a reasonable criteria, when the only thing they have in common is being in the same genre. It's like comparing Hulk to Godzilla.

Quote:
As for political viewpoints, a review is the reviewer's largely subjective take on a work. It's asinine to think that political persepctive wouldn't play into that subjective take.


If they have a political opinion, fine, but don't insert it into a review of a story which is apolitical.

Quote:
You thought Short Cuts was overly serious? We must have been reading different books.


I didn't say it was overly serious. It just took the subject more seriously than necessary. There is a difference.

Quote:
In any case, with regards to culture (technology not really being relevant), it embraced it a lot more fully and openly post-war than pre-war.


It's embraced Western culture at about the same rate, actually.

Quote:
I'm really not at all sure what you mean by that.


I mean that they're analyzing themselves within the context of their place in the world, not whether they've "caught up" with the Europeans.

Quote:

Well, if you entirely ignore the cultural subtext, I can see how you might think that...


Oh, and Hello Kitty is a step back for feminism, too. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
a) I don't recall the review telling you "this is sexist, you shouldnt watch this".


She just said that it fits a Japanese male type of sexism.

Quote:
But she's short, cute and Asian so you reduce her to the level of an otaku cliché - a sort of walking, talking lifesize plushie - by constantly refering to her as "moe". And you don't think that's patronising?


She's using the term in an ironic way.

Kuri:
Quote:

While I didn't have any problems with Hagu herself as a character, it was her age and thus the sudden romantic feelings expressed for her from guys that really turned my stomach.


She's the same age as everyone else. And love works in mysterious ways.

Quote:
Being shy and small is one thing, but she is protrayed as an overly submissive woman, and much more than that, as a child.


I'm not really sure how she's submissive, since she doesn't do things for other guys.

Acinom:
Quote:
Her behavior is actually a bit worrisome. She’s never the one to initiate any form of communication. Any character that does attempt to talk to her will either get a creepy, intense stare or a head movement. A word or two if you’re lucky. Shy doesn’t act like she’s shy.


A lot of people act like that.

Quote:

The attraction to her is creepy. She appears to have a mental disability and she physically looks like she’s five. What is there to be attracted to?


How about the way she expresses herself artistically and the way she stays positive?
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Mushiko



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:28 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Hagu is, in short, every gross stereotype of the ideal Japanese woman—silent, subservient, and small—come to life, the logical conclusion of Japan's incomplete modernization that the moé and lolicon genres make repulsively manifest.


This bit really made my hackles rise. I must confess, the first thing that came to my mind were images of buxom, scantily clad sexpots from American super-hero comics and the thought "so that is then the image of complete modernization for women, hurrah for feminism indeed." Modernization and female objectification in entertainment have, unfortunately, nothing to do with each other.

The thing is, Hagu as a character seems to me hardly objectified. Yes, Takemoto and Morita fall for her, and at first certainly for her outward cuteness - an occasion as objectifying as any "falling in love at first sight" is. However, on the story level Hagu is developed as a character of her own right, not as a love object or a wish-fullfilment fantasy, and here lies the crucial difference in my opinion.

In fact, it seems rare to find characters like Hagu and Takemoto take center stage in manga or any entertainment - characters who are weak, shy, awkward or just plain ordinary. There seems to be an obsession that everyone must be active, assertive, outward-going, brave and spirited, or at least brash and mysterious. If not, magic comes to aid. If someone starts out weak and shy, at the end of the first chapter at latest they get a magic wand or find out they are the anticipated hero of a parallel world. And the awkward, ordinary guy gets a magical girlfriend or four. In this story, there are no magic wands or out-of-the-blue wish-fulfillment, and the characters must grow up and learn to live with their weaknesses and insecurities the (gasp!) ordinary way. I found this very refreshing and endearing, and especially Takemoto grew on me.

Going back to the review, I'm starting to see a slightly unpleasant trend in Casey's (negative) reviews, namely to measure things with a decisively US-centered ideological yardstick. The "military conservative libertarian" line in the xxxHolic review made me both grimace and reach for the Wikipedia, as that particular strand of ideological debate has almost no relevance or press on this side of the Atlantic, and as far as I know, neither in Japan. Stamping such overarching ideological labels on products of a culture, where such concepts don't even exist or they are viewed in quite a different context, smacks to me of cultural chauvinism. Not to mention using a character's stature and personality as an indication of said culture's level of modernization. Modern as defined by who? I really hope buxom babes are not the universal gold standard here.

I admit that these are only a couple of sentences in two reviews, but they do colour the overall impression left by said reviews and the reviewer. Perhaps a bigger problem is that, as someone already said, Casey's negative reviews tend to be so centered on the things that she has chosen to criticize that it is hard to get a general picture of the title itself and its contents, something that hasn't been a problem with other ANN reviews.
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Dragynstorm



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:32 pm Reply with quote
Now, I haven't read much of the manga (I've been pretty behind in a couple series), but this review really does seem harsh. It feels like most of the review is accentuating the negative points and blowing them out of proportion. Is this series perfect? No, not at all. But from what I've read, it's an honest look at art students in college. There are slow times, there are awkward times, and there is a lot of pressure to "grow up."

Negative reviews are fine, but it makes it easier to swallow when some positive aspects are explored as well.


Also: I'm behind in the manga and so I can only base this off of the anime, but isn't a lot of the first part of the series spent at school? I mean, they aren't shown in class, but they seem to always be in Hanamoto's office. Plus, Morita does spend a lot of time working on art projects that he uses Hagu with... or is it different in the manga?
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Grico



Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 189
Location: Lansing, MI

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Orange_Popsicle wrote:
Wow.

This is probably the first time I have strongly disagreed with a review.



Really? I disagree with reviews all the time, although they don't matter to me much. For a series I like it doesn't really matter if a reviewer hates it, I like it and will continue to like unless a reviewer has brought up something I had never considered that really does effect how to look at the work.
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shoujogirl



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 32
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:32 pm Reply with quote
I really liked the Honey and Clover anime, but I really hated the manga's art, and both the anime and mangas' repetiveness. I have to agree with the reviewer.
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brightredglow



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:39 pm Reply with quote
On the one hand, I agree with the reviewer that this is not a series for everyone. Not everyone is going to like it and not everyone is going to "get it".

However, I do feel like the reviewer goes overboard in her language and by the time the review is complete, it seemed more like a rant than a review. How many other reviews use the phrases of "overwrought presumption" and "overhyped pabulum" in the same sentence?

Also, she describes Hagu as "a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences." Well, uh, yes. At the start of the manga's story, Hagu is a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. That is where she is at when the manga starts. As the story goes along, she will grow and change. This is an 11-volume series. Where a character is at in volume 1 may not be where they are at in volume 11 so for Ms Brienza to infer that Ms Umino is a misogynist for creating a character like Hagu is unfair and insulting and I think that Ms Brienza crossed a line at that point in the review.

Another thing that the reviewer fails to take into account when she remarked that the award and accolades won by the series was somehow undeserving is that the attention was given for more than 2 volumes of work. By the time it won the Kodansha award, the series was several volumes into the story.

As such, her disdain for the award and attention that the series garnered is a bit premature.

Overall, the review had some valid points, but Ms Brienza devalues those points by turning the review into a rant that bordered on a personal attack.
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posterior_praiser



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 294

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Okay. I firstly have to say I feel this review missed the mark. What makes Honey and Clover great is the fact that the story has characters you get emotionally involved with. The anime especially does a very good job at achieving this, perhaps more so than the manga. They all have their quarks (esp. morita) but they come together as friends and there are alot of moments that are very true to life, and touching.

And on the subject of Hagu. Hagu is ALOT more than she seems at first. Hagu is NOT a sexualized character in the least, nor is she supposed to be some kind of mary sue or ideal japanese woman. She really grows as a character, has real issues, and is far, far from perfect. In fact, she suffers from high anxiety due to the presure constantly placed on her and her art. There is nothing about her that is repulsive in the least, if you had even given her character more than a obviously critical first glance. She is innocent, but it isnt supposed to be in a degrading way, and you come to see that she does in fact have real feelings of love, and is conflicted over it. Also, the other female characters in H&C hardly fit any kind mold, and Hagu is supposed to debunk the moe stereyotype. She is far from 1 dimentional.

I can defintiely understand why this series would not appeal to someone who isnt into slice of life, or who finds more down to earth stories boring though. For me personally, the story hit home in a real way. Perhaps the reviewer is only looking superficially at the story, which has much more depth than it might seem at first IMO.
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Veoryn87



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 791

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:43 pm Reply with quote
brightredglow wrote:
Also, she describes Hagu as "a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences." Well, uh, yes. At the start of the manga's story, Hagu is a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. That is where she is at when the manga starts. As the story goes along, she will grow and change.


It only makes sense for the reviewer to accuse her of being a wan, pale child, who hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. She may grow as the series progresses, but this review is only about the first two volumes. What happens later isn't an issue right now.
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