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REVIEW: Honey and Clover GN 1-2


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posterior_praiser



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 294
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Veoryn87 wrote:
brightredglow wrote:
Also, she describes Hagu as "a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences." Well, uh, yes. At the start of the manga's story, Hagu is a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. That is where she is at when the manga starts. As the story goes along, she will grow and change.


It only makes sense for the reviewer to accuse her of being a wan, pale child, who hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. She may grow as the series progresses, but this review is only about the first two volumes. What happens later isn't an issue right now.


Um well already by the end of the first two volumes, you see Hagu starting to grow as a character. The reviewer just chose to ignore that completely. Also, knowing that there is more to a series than those two voulmes should give an indication that you can't make broad, defaming statements about characters like that without having read more. I've seen far, far more offensive characters than Hagu (who is actually not offensive at all) not only in manga or anime, but on american tv.
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brightredglow



Joined: 15 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:51 pm Reply with quote
Veoryn87 wrote:
brightredglow wrote:
Also, she describes Hagu as "a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences." Well, uh, yes. At the start of the manga's story, Hagu is a wan, pale child, and she hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. That is where she is at when the manga starts. As the story goes along, she will grow and change.


It only makes sense for the reviewer to accuse her of being a wan, pale child, who hardly ever speaks in articulate sentences. She may grow as the series progresses, but this review is only about the first two volumes. What happens later isn't an issue right now.


Yes, but this is an 11 volume series, not a one or two volume series and Ms Brienza made a blanket statement about the character as if that is the end of it and it isn't. Worse, she accused the writer of being a misogynist for creating a character like Hagu. That was completely unnecessary, insulting and it is flat out wrong.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1305
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:52 pm Reply with quote
What seems really depressing to me is that this is going to be the only review of Honey and Clover that gets itself into the side column. Oh sure, we also have Shelf Life's very positive review of it, but by presenting only one opinion, you're getting only one reviewer's ideas about it, which will always be skewed because everyone has different tastes and different biases. I say this even when they've had reviews I strongly agree with. There ought to be more than one presented.

So this is the same person who reduced xxxHOLiC to the shallow smear word of "liberal"? Oh for crying out loud... thank you for bringing reviews to the lowest common denominator! I'm all for being critical of anime when it's sexist, repetitive, derivative, etc, but I feel that both these reviews were too dismissive, as though the reviewer went into it with a chip on her (this is a woman, I gather?) shoulder.

I can't judge the manga; I've only seen the anime, which I really, really liked. Hagu is a very strong character in it, although it takes time for her to develop. And what I liked about the anime was how much they behaved exactly like college students. Frankly, I felt like I'd met these people (I've known Hagus too, believe it or not). Maybe the manga is different, I don't know. I wasn't particularly planning on reading it because the anime had satisfied me enough (same reason I didn't bother with the live action).

Still, it would be nice to hear another point of view represented here... although there have been good defenses mounted here in the forum.
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posterior_praiser



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 294
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:59 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
I can't judge the manga; I've only seen the anime, which I really, really liked. Hagu is a very strong character in it, although it takes time for her to develop. And what I liked about the anime was how much they behaved exactly like college students. Frankly, I felt like I'd met these people (I've known Hagus too, believe it or not). Maybe the manga is different, I don't know. I wasn't particularly planning on reading it because the anime had satisfied me enough (same reason I didn't bother with the live action).

Still, it would be nice to hear another point of view represented here... although there have been good defenses mounted here in the forum.


Here's a real opinion on the manga: Not as fulfilling as the anime because it lacks the gorgeous soundtrack and supurb voice acting, but definitely worth the read. I personally love Umino-sensei's style, which isn't quite perfectly duplicated in the anime. Also, the anime is very faithful to the manga, so nothing that's in the manga wasn't in the anime

Also, I completely agree with you. It is a shame that people are going to see this review and get the entirely wrong impression of this story. It is not at all sexist like the reviewer seems to believe.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:02 pm Reply with quote
posterior_praiser wrote:
Also, I completely agree with you. It is a shame that people are going to see this review and get the entirely wrong impression of this story. It is not at all sexist like the reviewer seems to believe.


What I'd love would be if they could do something ala Rotten Tomatoes, where they give you a variety of different reviews and you can read multiple ones to get a general idea of what the manga or anime is like. That way you get a spectrum and can avoid having simplistic "OMG GREATEST THING EVER!" and "UGH THIS SUCKS!" I don't know if that's even possible for something as small-market as anime and manga, but it would be the best option.

(Oh, as an added thing: I actually agree that xxxHOLiC isn't worth buying, but not because it's "liberal;" the music isn't that great, its rife with filler, and you'd be better off just buying the manga. So it isn't just "whah! someone hates what I like!")
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posterior_praiser



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 294
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:33 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
(Oh, as an added thing: I actually agree that xxxHOLiC isn't worth buying, but not because it's "liberal;" the music isn't that great, its rife with filler, and you'd be better off just buying the manga. So it isn't just "whah! someone hates what I like!")


I agree. xxxHOLIC isnt worth buying. The animation isnt that great, and the manga is about a million times more interesting. The second season was very good though. And I didn't agree with that review of holic either. It was harsh for the wrong reasons. Much like this one.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:31 pm Reply with quote
brightredglow wrote:
it seemed more like a rant than a review. How many other reviews use the phrases of "overwrought presumption" and "overhyped pabulum" in the same sentence?


Since when has not relying on monosyllabic prose been indicitive of a rant? Rolling Eyes

vashfanatic wrote:
What I'd love would be if they could do something ala Rotten Tomatoes, where they give you a variety of different reviews and you can read multiple ones to get a general idea of what the manga or anime is like.


I don't know about manga but there's certainly a site like that for anime.
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nkaze



Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:06 pm Reply with quote
D+??? You're going to reviewer's hell. The manga is not as good as the anime, mainly because it's missing the awesome "Spitz" soundtrack, but it's still worth at least a B to A-.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:20 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
I don't know about manga but there's certainly a site like that for anime.


Thanks for the link! *bookmarks*

Anyway, I'm pretty sensitive to moe and lolicon (hate 'em), I don't like male or female harems unless their comical (tolerate 'em if the rest is good), and I've only seen one dating-sim-based anime I ever liked (Tsukihime)... but Hagu set off no alarms for me. To me, she was just shy and uncertain of herself, which became a baseline for the growth of her character later on... in the anime, at least, I don't know about in the manga. And whether it was worthy of the Kodansha... that's a whole other issue, isn't it? You'd have to know what the competition was like that year, among other things, and face the fact that Japanese critics may like different things than we do. I mean, my God, they gave the Kobe Animation prize for best movie to the first Pokemon movie!
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brightredglow



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
brightredglow wrote:
it seemed more like a rant than a review. How many other reviews use the phrases of "overwrought presumption" and "overhyped pabulum" in the same sentence?


Since when has not relying on monosyllabic prose been indicitive of a rant? Rolling Eyes


A good review is clear and concise. It doesn't need extraneous adjectives that scream "Look at me and how superior I can write!"

I agree that the series is not for everyone. I agree that the artwork does take getting used to. But I disagree with the extreme tone that this reviewer chose to present her review because in the end, the review itself was more overwrought and overdone than the subject of the review ever was.

That's where her review lost its validity as far as I am concerned. That and the unwarranted "misogyny" insult.

Edit to add: I just realized what bugs me about Ms Brienza's reviews. They remind me of forum posts, instead of being a polished, professional review. In a forum post, I'd overlook charged words like "repulsive" and overuse of adjectives but in a review that represents a website, I expect a little more balance and a lot more polish.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:42 pm Reply with quote
brightredglow wrote:
That and the unwarranted "misogyny" insult.


She ought to save her disgust for something truly deserving, like He is My Master, DaCapo, Kodomo no Jikan, and stuff that honestly is moe, lolicon, and offensive to women. Hagu's just... kinda weird. And if she turns you off to the manga, fine, but not everyone's going to feel that way. The review makes it sound as though if you like Hagu, you're a sexist creep.
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merr



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:56 pm Reply with quote
Maidenoftheredhand wrote:
My main issue with Casey's review is she basically says anyone who likes the manga is wrong (including the commitee that awarded it the 2003 Kodansha manga award) and the only way anyone can possibly enjoy the title is if they were not expecting much in the first place. Casey can think whatever she likes about the manga but my expectations are not low because I happen to enjoy something that she dislikes.

I've gotten this same sense from a lot of Casey's reviews. It's fine to discuss how the depiction of a character is creepy or sexist, but in this case, the discussion in this review is so strongly worded that it comes across as implying that anyone who isn't revolted by the character of Hagu is a misogynist or a pedophile. Similarly, her review of xxxHolic was phrased in such a way that she made it seem as though anyone not offended by the show was somehow not a "real" liberal.

Casey is really an excellent writer, but her reviews are always full of such harsh, powerful, and loaded language that every single title comes across as either a complete masterpiece or an affront all humanity. When I read the words "ignominious" and "deplorable" in a review, the first thing I think is that the work in question must be truly offensive and downright heinous. I sincerely doubt that Honey and Clover is that kind of work. The character of Hagu could very well be stereotypical and sexist (I wouldn't know, since I haven't actually read the series), but I'm willing to bet she's not the absolute epitome of Japanese misogyny that Casey makes her out to be.

I don't necessarily disagree with many of the points she raises, but I do wish Casey would tone down some of her language, because it's making it hard for me to trust her as a reviewer. It's as if she's screaming at the top of her voice in every single review.

Last edited by merr on Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:58 pm Reply with quote
brightredglow wrote:

A good review is clear and concise. It doesn't need extraneous adjectives that scream "Look at me and how superior I can write!"


Ah yes, the "dumb it down!" cry I get every time I publish a review that has big scary words in it. Not everyone with a big vocabulary who knows how to use it is trying to make you feel inferior, little fella.
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brightredglow



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:00 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
brightredglow wrote:
That and the unwarranted "misogyny" insult.


She ought to save her disgust for something truly deserving, like He is My Master, DaCapo, Kodomo no Jikan, and stuff that honestly is moe, lolicon, and offensive to women. Hagu's just... kinda weird. And if she turns you off to the manga, fine, but not everyone's going to feel that way. The review makes it sound as though if you like Hagu, you're a sexist creep.


That might be part of what made me shake my head over that remark.

Heck, I enjoy NANA but Yazawa is far more "misogynistic" and regressive in the way she treats her female characters than Honey & Clover ever came close to being so the inference of misogyny seemed uncalled for and baseless to me.

Granted, the point that the characters are weird is valid because they are weird. And Hagu is a tough sell. I found Hagu to be perplexing when I first read and watched the series. But calling the character "repulsive" is extreme and heavyhanded.

Zac wrote:
brightredglow wrote:

A good review is clear and concise. It doesn't need extraneous adjectives that scream "Look at me and how superior I can write!"


Ah yes, the "dumb it down!" cry I get every time I publish a review that has big scary words in it. Not everyone with a big vocabulary who knows how to use it is trying to make you feel inferior, little fella.


I beg your pardon but I'm not a "little fella", thank you very much and I can handle big words just fine.

This isn't about "dumbing it down". It is about a review that was heavyhanded and overdone in my opinion.

I enjoy the reviews of Mr Martin and Mr Santos. Sometimes I've agreed with them and sometimes I haven't, but I've always found them interesting.

I don't enjoy the reviews by Ms Brienza. This just happens to be the first time I've ever wrote about why.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:37 pm Reply with quote
Zac: The review doesn't need to be dumbed down, since it already came off idiotic. This isn't a college thesis, this is a manga review.
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