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Otakon 2008 Fansubs and Industry Panel


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Who Is This Guy!?



Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:19 pm Reply with quote
Yay. Now I can't WAIT for everyone on here to jump on the bandwagon, and starting bitching out of their asses. Wink

However, here are my two cents: I shamelessly download a fansub. If I like it, I proudly purchase the DVDs. I've been doing it that way for a while now, and I'm quite happy as it stands. Anime smallmouth

Everything else...is, well, just "politics." And we already have too much of that to begin with.
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Kyogissun



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Who Is This Guy!? wrote:
Yay. Now I can't WAIT for everyone on here to jump on the bandwagon, and starting bitching out of their asses. Wink

However, here are my two cents: I shamelessly download a fansub. If I like it, I proudly purchase the DVDs. I've been doing it that way for a while now, and I'm quite happy as it stands. Anime smallmouth

Everything else...is, well, just "politics." And we already have too much of that to begin with.


I'm on the opposite purchasing spectrum. If it's a DVD... I can't be bothered with it. I owned a full collection of .hack//SIGN at one point but... Now I just can't find half of the DVD's.

Put it on digital download and I'm all for it. Again, I love what Bandai and Manga Entertainment are doing with Gurren Lagann on iTunes, I seriously just LOVE it. Sure it's been over a year since it first began airing but it's a lot sooner than some others, right?

*cough* CODE GEASS *cough*

ANYWHO, I am with the whole purchasing the DVD thing. I fully downloaded and watched Air TV 3 years ago, 2 or 3 months after it had premiered and LOVED it.

I then immediately freaked once ADV got their hands on it and had the promise of a great quality for it. I was so excited, I pre-orded volume one immediately.

The same happened with Higurashi.

And will definitely happen with Clannad as well.

Back on the focus of the whole views, I gotta say that whole americanizing is... Pointless to some degree. There are some I see it appropriate for, though I can't name any other than Shin-chan off the top of my head...

Maybe Case Closed? =/

But then again, I can't see many where the americanization has truly ruined the quality... I mean even if you count some of the stuff done by 4kids, does the factor of the japanese influence in something like Pokemon or Yugioh really need to remain in tact? I get their statement, I just think like with all statements, it needs to be backed up with examples.
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Kamenriderfan555



Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:35 pm Reply with quote
When it comes to Case Closed, the only 'justifiable' Americanization I can remember is when one of the clues was a name that was being rewritten by other people after the victim had written it. Being a visual word-based clue, it didn't translate all that easily.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 12650
Location: NZL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:38 pm Reply with quote
Finally, an intelligent and civilised discussion regarding fansubs and fansubbers. Yelling, pointing fingers, and overt hostility don't get us anywhere. I'm glad to see the various factions involved have realised this, and are willing to talk it about it. I suppose that mysterious force known as "sanity" (AKA "common sense") is not as elusive as first thought.

I was also impressed with the neutral tone of the commentary.



Praise be.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12545

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:40 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
GetFresh actually “retired” as a fansubber, but returned once Macross Frontier began airing, since, in his view, no Macross series will ever be released commercially in the U.S. as long as Harmony Gold retains the rights to the original.


I think you're confused there, buddy. It's the other way around; it's the Japanese licensors who are keeping us from seeing more Macross with their stupid back-biting and overpriced music fees.

Quote:
Heiskell's firm stance against streaming sites found easy support all around the table.


Funny that your buddies at Gonzo seem to feel completely different about the subject, Lance. And if it weren't for the mass exposure of DBZ on the internets, FUNimation would probably be as niche as 4Kids, since the demand for better translations was what enabled the company to expand beyond the crappy "before kids wake up" timeslot.

Quote:
At this point, as the talk turned to some of the specific ways in which both anime companies and anime fans can react to unauthorized distribution, Heiskell also revealed that his company had recently been retained by the Japanese anime production house d-rights to "pre-emptively" take down fansubs of a slate of anime that have currently aired in Japan, including Nabari no Ou, Hitman Reborn, Bamboo Blade, Monochrome Factor, and Cazador de la Bruja. He emphacized, however, that Funimation does not hold a license to distribute any of these, and in fact, may not necessarily end up licensing all of these series.


So if you're not interested, what's the point of taking them down? You're not really doing those on the Japanese end any favors, since they're just going to assume that only pirates would have an interest in said series.

Quote:
Some 30% of anime fans, in his opinion, will simply never spend money to watch Japanese animation.


Though it goes down to 10%, if you only count moe and generic teen action shows instead of the good stuff. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Similarly, Japanese companies are - and will likely remain - reluctant to directly use fansubbers' expertise during production.


And they'll come off more amateur than the bootleggers as a result. *cough* Toei *cough*

Quote:
embrace the Blu-Ray format more fully,


Blu-Ray has nothing to do with it. If people want it, they'll see it, and that's all there is to it. But the home video format isn't the issue. In fact, as many have pointed out, the wave of the future is legally downloading on the go, not BD.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 7749

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:44 pm Reply with quote
As others have said, a lot of fans just simply aren't collectors and don't want to own the DVDs, they just want to see the shows maybe once and be over with it.

That's how it is for me, I like a lot shows, but I just don't feel the need to actually own it, even if it is a good price because I don't feel that I'll ever want to really watch it anytime in the near future. Like I'm looking a few inches up and seeing the Black Lagoon Season one coming available, that's something that I would want to order though because it has a high re-watch value.

And as always stated with the expensive Japanese prices, that's because Japan just has an expensive living cost, and it's highly visible in anime. But again, they can see it on TV and DVR it, and should they want to own it, they can go out and purchase. And to them, paying the high prices is a status symbol, they even enjoy and pride themselves on it. They're just more serious than we could hope to be, and god bless them for having no lives and spending their paychecks on it. Then again, they usually don't have car expenses.

Also, the way of the world is about the present. Many people don't favor the fact of being two years behind on a show, and to see the show doesn't mean to need to own it.


Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Panon



Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:47 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
I think you're confused there, buddy. It's the other way around; it's the Japanese licensors who are keeping us from seeing more Macross with their stupid back-biting and overpriced music fees.


Chicken, meet egg.

Japanese's blockages of Macross coming over are entirely because of Harmony Golds presence and continued insistence they they own it and deserve a cut from everything. If you think the Japanese are in the wrong for not just rolling over and handing over perpetual ownership to an outside foreign company you're not going to find a lot of people agreeing with you.

Quote:
Funny that your buddies at Gonzo seem to feel completely different about the subject, Lance.


He very obviously means unauthorized streaming sites.

Come on, try a bit harder here.
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2616
Location: Out.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:59 pm Reply with quote
I'm glad I got out of the sick bed to check this site.

Finnaly, a reasonable talk with fansubbers that doesn't end in them being called the hounds of hell. I'm really excited that Funi and Media Blasters sat down with them. I started to wonder where ADV was, but then I remember their comments from earlier this year? and where they are now. I kind of wish they had of been there, i'd love to see if they're still on their former positions now that they're hanging by a thread.

I think this article made me love Dattebayo more now. I rely on them for Naruto Shippuden and Bleach in a timely manner, but as i've said before if a R1 or R2 company decided to do the same i'd fully support them. I also took part in their survey, and i'm somewhat shocked at the amount of response.

I'm glad to see those subbers being honest, with the ceasing of their distribution. Also giving the points that if someone is going to stop them don't f-it up releasing it. I hope that more of these types of panels can go on, and maybe they can get some japanese reps involved. It's time for a change, the old way isn't going to cut it anymore.

I wonder what Tofu has to say about this, and I also wonder what all those anti-subbers are going to say. I'm sure they'll find a way to spin this, when it was actually something positive.


Last edited by britannicamoore on Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 467
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:00 am Reply with quote
I'll go back through the article later, but I had to jump on this now:

Panon wrote:
GATSU wrote:
I think you're confused there, buddy. It's the other way around; it's the Japanese licensors who are keeping us from seeing more Macross with their stupid back-biting and overpriced music fees.


Chicken, meet egg.

Japanese's blockages of Macross coming over are entirely because of Harmony Golds presence and continued insistence they they own it and deserve a cut from everything. If you think the Japanese are in the wrong for not just rolling over and handing over perpetual ownership to an outside foreign company you're not going to find a lot of people agreeing with you.


The Harmony Gold boogey man was and still is a scare tactic. Macross II has been available since almost when it was released in Japan and Macross Plus made it over not too long after it were released in Japan, with the proper fees paid to Harmony Gold. If anything, two releases of the Macross TV series have been made stateside with HG's logo as well as their respective publishers who did the real work on it. Macross 7 has explicitly been stated that the music is holding it back and ownership chaos with the remaining titles are probably holding them back from being released here, if there is any licensing issue holding more Macross from North America.

If anything, it's market conditions that are probably more responsible for a lack of Macross coming over anytime soon than any Japanese cluster-love-making or Harmony Gold rightfully holding North American rights to the name "Macross".
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:01 am Reply with quote
Panon wrote:
Come on, try a bit harder here.
GATSU is trying. . . to be annoying.

Interesting article. Certainly not the typical article on this subject. I was surprised by how cordial things seemed to be. (Heck, I may be wrong but the fansubbers actually seemed kind of pro-industry. Shocked .)

Not surprised though that they still don't actually seem to fully grasp that it's not their anime to do with as they please but hell, they'll never get that one.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12545

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:08 am Reply with quote
Panon:
Quote:
Japanese's blockages of Macross coming over are entirely because of Harmony Golds presence and continued insistence they they own it and deserve a cut from everything.


That's because they do own it, since it's in their contract. The Japanese companies don't like it, they should learn to negotiate better deals. It's the same posturing which has kept CPM from being able to release any more yaoi, and which forced ADV to cancel one of its Shinkai titles, and that's all there is to it.

Quote:
If you think the Japanese are in the wrong for not just rolling over and handing over perpetual ownership to an outside foreign company you're not going to find a lot of people agreeing with you.


They handed perpetual ownership of Macross DYRL, Yamato, Gatchaman, and Astro Boy to foreign companies, and they didn't seem to be complaining back then. They're only fronting now, because they think they can squeeze out more money from these licenses; it's total bs, and it just hurts them in the long run, because they're missing out on residuals from the American market, and hurting the name recognition of these shows in the process. So, for example, if Gundam Wing and Ultimate Muscle were released ten years from now, instead of a few years ago, there's no way they'd make the same money they did back then, since people would be watching Big O, Code Geass, and Baki instead of those two shows, and thus not have the same interest in the latter titles, as a result. Why? Because they're tied to very old shows which require an interest in anime in general, and not just anime meant for casual viewing. So if Bandai Visual and Big West really want Macross Frontier and Zero to suffer the same sort of irrelevance as the Gunbusters, then mission accomplished.

Quote:
He very obviously means unauthorized streaming sites.


Crunchyroll was unauthorized for a while, though.
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Who Is This Guy!?



Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:17 am Reply with quote
Hah. You guys are being more civilized than I anticipated. BUT...it IS starting to get rather hot. Anime catgrin
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belisarius



Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 203
Location: Concord, NC

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:26 am Reply with quote
Good write up on a very interesting panel, thanks to all involved at ANN.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 7749

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:29 am Reply with quote
I like how they mention that they go after the devices and not the people. Maybe they know if they go after the people, they'll hurt the tiny industry. Good stuff to hear though.

And wow, the FUNi guy said they're making their decision on 1 or 2 episodes of whether or not to license. Real bad practice in my opinion, as shows can either get dramatically better or dramatically worse at any time. Meaning they license anime A when they should have been licensing anime B. Interesting. And having to pre-license before the show even airs in Japan? Talk about ouch, I feel sorry for the companies, because they could easily end up with a piece of crap.


Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2616
Location: Out.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:37 am Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I like how they mention that they go after the devices and not the people. Maybe they know if they go after the people, they'll hurt the tiny industry. Good stuff to hear though.

And wow, the FUNi guy said they're making their decision on 1 or 2 episodes of whether or not to license. Real bad practice in my opinion, as shows can either get dramatically better or dramatically worse at any time. Meaning they license anime A when they should have been licensing anime B. Interesting.


Going after people individually is a waste of time and effort. You scare or fine 10 people and not only will 50 more people pop up in their place but the other billion (<---way over exaggerated) keep going. And then the site gets new technology so it becomes even harder to find one person.

I'd prefer if they created their own devices instead though. That way its a win win for both sides. Wink

As for Funi picking by 1 to 2 episodes they've been lucky then. They, like the 3000 dvd owner have money to throw around. Hopefully they don't get burned in the process or over pay for something thats not worth it.
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