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Hey, Answerman! [2008-08-22]


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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:26 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
spoiler[Kurama, Lucy, and Kouta], not so much. spoiler[Kurama survives mainly because he's needed for a key plot point near the end of the story, but he spends most of the time being a haggard old man obsessed over the loss of his daughter, and he verbally bitch-slaps Nana when they first meet up again.]

I'll grant you that that certainly was not Kurama's shining moment. Though I wouldn't say his "character development" has been sacrificed, since he does return to normal (i.e. returns to being the jerk he was before he spoiler[went mad]. Really, I don't recall him making that much progress to begin with).

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Lucy oscillates between being uneasy about killing people and enjoying it.

That's because she has multiple personalities.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
At least the anime didn't have her cackling maniacally willing severing people's limbs.

Maybe it needed that. Lucy is a pshychopathic killer, after all.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
And then there's Kouta, who spoiler[stops just short of wishing death on Lucy for killing his family, then immediately after jumps in front of a bullet for her].

Kouta does this to spoiler[save Nyu], not spoiler[Lucy].

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
(Although it look's like spoiler[_Lucy_] may genuinely be on the way out, as there are only a couple chapters left, and spoiler[she is dissolving into a pile of goo, but I wouldn't be surprised if she magically revived somehow)]

Let me get this straight. You call bull on me when you haven't even finished the manga? Rolling Eyes

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Maybe I'm not expressing my thoughts well, but the anime makes a decent effort at being about something other than boobs and violence, which is increasingly obvious what the manga is about.

Indeed, it does tone the fanservice down quite a bit, and this is certainly a welcome motion. That's irrelevant, though, as it doesn't change the fact that in the anime spoiler[Kouta simply forgives Lucy for killing his family and ruining his life without her even showing an ounce of remorse for her actions].

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
The story needed a villain harsher than spoiler[Bandou] to cast the latter in a heroic light (though it was shortlived, as it should be).

No it didn't. The heroism didn't come from being a step above the scum of the earth, it came from spoiler[sacrificing his life for someone else]. You don't need someone worse than you to redeem yourself from being a massive jerk.

I wasn't claiming otherwise; but Mr Scum was certainly useful in making spoiler[Bandou's sacrifice] more realistic to the audience.
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dangerwhat



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 187
Location: Central Florida
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:30 am Reply with quote
Wow, heated and intelligent debate about....Elfen Lied?! o.O From what I saw, I never got the impression that was really worth seeing. You make it sound like it is, though. So good job lol
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:41 pm Reply with quote
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Lucy oscillates between being uneasy about killing people and enjoying it.

That's because she has multiple personalities.

True, but Nyu never knows about the killing, and thus can't be remorseful for them, so it's the Lucy personality alone that goes through these changes. spoiler[Granted, there is that third unnamed personality that is always encouraging Lucy to kill all humans, but assuming I understood the events and conversation that took place in 100 and 101 correctly, that personality didn't actually take control until Lucy was about to let Kurama kill her.]

Ai no Kareshi wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
(Although it look's like spoiler[_Lucy_] may genuinely be on the way out, as there are only a couple chapters left, and spoiler[she is dissolving into a pile of goo, but I wouldn't be surprised if she magically revived somehow)]

Let me get this straight. You call bull on me when you haven't even finished the manga? Rolling Eyes

You're point was the deaths made it seem like anyone could die. It's become increasingly obvious that there are certain characters that cannot die. The only reason I'm questioning the mortality of one such character now is because I know the series is almost over, not because the author enjoys killing off major characters.

Ai no Kareshi wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Maybe I'm not expressing my thoughts well, but the anime makes a decent effort at being about something other than boobs and violence, which is increasingly obvious what the manga is about.

Indeed, it does tone the fanservice down quite a bit, and this is certainly a welcome motion. That's irrelevant, though, as it doesn't change the fact that in the anime spoiler[Kouta simply forgives Lucy for killing his family and ruining his life without her even showing an ounce of remorse for her actions].

Um, spoiler[he specifically does not forgive her for killing Kanae and his father, but he still cares for her.]

Edit: adjusted quote tags.


Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:28 am Reply with quote
You might want to be careful with those quote tags. Wink

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
True, but Nyu never knows about the killing, and thus can't be remorseful for them, so it's the Lucy personality alone that goes through these changes. spoiler[Granted, there is that third unnamed personality that is always encouraging Lucy to kill all humans, but assuming I understood the events and conversation that took place in 100 and 101 correctly, that personality didn't actually take control until Lucy was about to let Kurama kill her.]

It was my impression that it is, for the most part, this spoiler[third personality] that drives her to killing. If you look at it that way her behaviour does make a lot more sense. The anime makes little mention of this spoiler[personality], using it more to illustrate how she went psychotic in the past than to represent a force she is battling in the present.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
You're point was the deaths made it seem like anyone could die. It's become increasingly obvious that there are certain characters that cannot die. The only reason I'm questioning the mortality of one such character now is because I know the series is almost over, not because the author enjoys killing off major characters.

Whether or not they actually die is beside the point, though, as the aim of this device is to build tension by making the reader fear that the character has actually died. If you found it ineffective, then so be it, but it did work on me a couple of times – I was fretting the entire second half of the story that spoiler[poor Nana might not make it].

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Um, spoiler[he specifically does not forgive her for killing Kanae and his father, but he still cares for her.]

This paradox touches on the subject that puts me off the most about the anime. He says he doesn't forgive her, and yet his actions contradict this. I mean, spoiler[they share a kiss]? She spoiler[killed his family and destroyed his life], and even then was still killing people. The closest thing she has shown to remorse is displaying dread that ger her only "friend" might reject her now that he has spoiler[regained his memory]. spoiler[Fighting Mariko] is no way or repenting, as it's just another action Lucy took to protect herself. And yet he seems to just accept her?

Undoubtably, the anime has many strengths over the manga. However, my main gripe is its ending (and the general distortion of Lucy's personality that goes with it). The manga ending was much more meaningful to me. Perhaps you should finish the manga yourself before attempting to compare the two.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:22 pm Reply with quote
Ai no Kareshi wrote:

This paradox touches on the subject that puts me off the most about the anime. He says he doesn't forgive her, and yet his actions contradict this. I mean, spoiler[they share a kiss]? She spoiler[killed his family and destroyed his life], and even then was still killing people. The closest thing she has shown to remorse is displaying dread that ger her only "friend" might reject her now that he has spoiler[regained his memory]. spoiler[Fighting Mariko] is no way or repenting, as it's just another action Lucy took to protect herself. And yet he seems to just accept her?

At such a point in the series I didn't once consider these to be detracting elements. The fact that spoiler[despite her actions Lucy shows how much she loves Kouta] was itself highly touching for me. As for him spoiler[not showing so much resentment towards the murderer of his family], I myself like to think that spoiler[he still sees her as a victim, and can't help but care for her even in face of his past and his existing romantic engagement].
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
You might want to be careful with those quote tags. Wink

Ah, thanks.

Ai no Kareshi wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Um, spoiler[he specifically does not forgive her for killing Kanae and his father, but he still cares for her.]

This paradox touches on the subject that puts me off the most about the anime. He says he doesn't forgive her, and yet his actions contradict this.

How is this different from what I said about the manga?


Ai no Kareshi wrote:
Undoubtably, the anime has many strengths over the manga. However, my main gripe is its ending (and the general distortion of Lucy's personality that goes with it). The manga ending was much more meaningful to me. Perhaps you should finish the manga yourself before attempting to compare the two.

I'm working on it. As far as I've found, the last two chapters aren't translated yet, although they should be soon.
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:20 am Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
The fact that spoiler[despite her actions Lucy shows how much she loves Kouta] was itself highly touching for me. As for him spoiler[not showing so much resentment towards the murderer of his family], I myself like to think that spoiler[he still sees her as a victim, and can't help but care for her even in face of his past and his existing romantic engagement].

That's fair enough. This ending seriously didn't work for me, but obviously a lot of people found it touching.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
This paradox touches on the subject that puts me off the most about the anime. He says he doesn't forgive her, and yet his actions contradict this.

How is this different from what I said about the manga?

If you're talking about him spoiler[taking a bullet for her], I believe I have already explained that he does this to spoiler[save Nyu], not spoiler[Lucy].
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:36 pm Reply with quote
Ai no Kareshi wrote:
If you're talking about him spoiler[taking a bullet for her], I believe I have already explained that he does this to spoiler[save Nyu], not spoiler[Lucy].

So why doesn't that also apply to the anime?
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:09 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
So why doesn't that also apply to the anime?

I would say that she was unmistakeably in her Lucy personality during the anime's spoiler[kiss-and-make-up] scene. If you want to believe Kouta's spoiler[hugging and kissing] Lucy because he has feelings for Nyu, that's your business, but I don't buy it. Wink
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:30 am Reply with quote
Blasted subtle distinctions foiling my argument.
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:47 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Blasted subtle distinctions foiling my argument.

I would say the distinction between Lucy and Nyu is more than a subtle one, my friend.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:44 pm Reply with quote
I wasn't referring to the difference between the characters, but the situations. spoiler[In the manga, Kohta has to save Lucy despite hating her because she and Nyu share the same body, but in the anime, the comparison doesn't quite hold because, as you have pointed out, he's expressing romantic feelings towards Lucy, because it wouldn't to have him express his feelings towards Nyu through Lucy, as Nyu doesn't share Lucy's memories.]

Can't you accept victory gracefully?
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:37 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
I wasn't referring to the difference between the characters, but the situations.

Oh sorry, my mistake.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Can't you accept victory gracefully?

Confused
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