Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - You, The Viewer
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Tiger & Bunny is less than a year old, yet it's already huge. You have no idea how long this thing will last. They haven't even started on videogames yet. I think. Maybe. Anyway, some manga/anime do stick around forever, they just do it slightly differently. America produces confusing crossover stories, Japan gives us embarrasing merchandise. |
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st_owly
 Posts: 5234 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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There are other crossovers in the CLAMP world. Tsubasa and Holic is the main one, but Chobits is a loose sequel to Angelic Layer, alternate universe characters from just about all of their series appear in Tsubasa, Kazehaya and Rikuo from Legal Drug appear in xxxholic, X has characters from Tokyo Babylon. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.
I'm not trying to say that all manga even attempt something on the scale of the DC-verse, but you can't criticise comics for doing it when manga does it as well. Even Osamu Tezuka recycled characters from his works and used them in other works. I could name you a few other manga-ka who recycle characters as well. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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He actually reminds me alot of NON-anime fans who dismiss all anime as "superviolent porn cartoons". It's actually pretty hilarious. |
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EireformContinent
 Posts: 977 Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land) |
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The really funny thing is that he doesn't go to any territory where he could find "violent porn hinese cartoons" guys and illuminate them with his wisdom, but spends time boring anime fans who dared to like anything else.
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Yet you used Evangelion which is over a decade old and still only has the same 26 episode + movie count. I suppose Rebuild adds four more movies, but to say it's the same as the DC/Marvel examples listed is insane, especially when the Rebuild is already established to be it's own continuity and you don't need to see them. Ignoring the fact anything Evangelion is still Evangelion, while you have to read an entirely different character like Superman to get the Batman story. You can't seem to really differentiate between these two concepts very well. Or if you can and are choosing not to, it's the very definition of gasping at the straws to try to put them on the same level when it's fairly clear they are not. And merchandising/video games isn't really relatable at all to the people's common criticism about superhero comics. No one's saying you can't like them, but the whole thing is why the majority of people do not and why the article mentions anime and manga, not comics. Now that people got their answer, it's upsetting them, despite it being the truth. And if people really want to defend the actions of superhero comics, it'd be best if the first post after the statement didn't just agree with everything I said, and from someone who is on the opposing side, apparently. I'm not sure how they can admit superhero comic are impenetrable then turn around and says it's wrong. |
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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Titan, what people are taking issue with are the blanket statements you are making, stating as fact, and basing on personal opinion. No one really cares if you decide you find manga and anime superior over cartoons and comics, but once you start spouting idiotic that anime and manga is vastly superior by dumping a laundry lists of flaws that can go both ways, that's where you run into problems. Both anime/manga and cartoons/comics have their cream of the crop and their utter crap. Anime and manga is not above criticism, and I'd find it laughable if someone tried to convince otherwise. By even starting this argument you're already a mile deep in a can of worms, so in all honesty I think it'd just be better to agree to disagree.
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Drac
Posts: 165 |
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The US Jump magazine was indeed terrible by the time they got around to adding Psyren which isn't even that long of a series in the first place so it would have eventually gone back to being Bleach, One Piece, Naruto, and Yu-Gi-Oh anyway.
There really wasn't much they could do to fix the major flaws a small monthly magazine has compared to its massive weekly counterpart. It had no hope or redemption in its future if it stayed in print. I still don't see why people who have an interest in a series can't just go out and purchase the volumes instead of bumming it with only a few chapters a month or reading it for free at a library. It sure couldn't be one of the "Best" titles of the year if those two lousy options are enough to satisfy you. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Start? It was already in progress and I was merely echoing what Melanchthon said earlier. He pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to superhero comics. So far, no one's really countered those points. In fact, quite a number of people have actually agreed on those points. Those are facts, not opinions. Those are the very reason superhero comics are seen as impenetrable and have even been fully admitted by Marvel/DC plenty of times. If you really have that much of a problem, then counter those points by showing how those points don't apply to superhero comics with some factual evidence to support those challenges. Don't just shout ad hominems or whatnot if you want your point to be taken seriously. Also, reread the article and question actually being addressed, and you'll understand why people are saying these things; it was about which market would be better to get into. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Ah the tried and true Titan formula: 1) Flat out ignore any point you can't easily refute. 2) State in summation that "nobody has countered your points". 3) Wait till someone finally gets sick of this and calls you an idiot. 4) Flail about "Ad Hominems". 
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kakoishii
Posts: 741 |
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Titan, I've read the article, how bout not being insulting, oh wait...I think you just might not be capable of that, so I'll just save myself the trouble. Quite honestly as much as one person can find comics impenetrable another person can find them pretty accessible be it through the comics, the movies, or the many animated series based on the titles. It's silly for me to go back in forth with you on that because, I'm sorry I don't care if some head at Marvel or DC made some claim on why they feel readers might not read their properties, it is all opinion. There is no hard and fast reason why someone should or shouldn't read comics and the same can be said for manga. That said, I find it idiotic that you should think that someone who lives in the west should make an anime simply because you find the stories in anime more appealing. I don't enjoy the stories in the many anime I've seen because it's anime, I enjoy them because they are good stories that happen to be anime. I like to watch good animated entertainment be it from the east or the west. If there was someone who wanted to make a really great animated series and they live in the states, I don't see why they shouldn't go about making a cartoon. There are plenty of great cartoons with great stories, and you my friend are being idiotic by trying to play it off that cartoons are incapable of having good stories. tl dr as much as you claim there are ton of people in this thread that agree with you titan, there are just as many that don't and do in fact believe you are being an ass, and have given reasons why they disagree with you. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Sure, the big superhero comics have been around much longer, so of course DC and Marvel have had more time to really screw up the timeline/universe/whatever and obscure all good entrypoints. Here's the thing though: Japanese companies are willing to do the exact same thing for the exact same reason: money. When I'm talking about NGE, I'm not just talking about the 26 episode tv-series and the two original movies, I'm talking about the whole thing. The (multiple!) manga series, the videogames, the drama CDs, the new movies, even merchandise. Everything that expands, or somehow adds to whole NGE universe.
That's just because American comic publishers are using videogames in the same way as the Japanese yet. It's not uncommon for a videogame based on a manga/anime to feature a new storyline and new characters. American companies prefer to go for adaptions.
Now you're acting like all American comics have to be superhero comics. That's stupid. In fact, it's probably more difficult to launch a new superhero comic than it is to get any other genre published. Marval and DC aren't really comic publishers anymore, they handle IPs. Publishing comics is just a small part of the job, for them the real money is in movies. They don't need new superheroes and the competition is well aware that the superhero market is saturated. There are however more than a few other publishers who publish different kinds of comics. Think Top Shelf, Drawn & Quarterly, Oni Press or even Dark Horse. Promoting your work to them as manga is a bad idea, because it will look like you're desperately trying to fit a format. Which you probably are, because you're using manga as a buzzword. They want something more genuine. Be honest about what influenced you, but don't go for something as vague as 'manga'. Mention actual authors and/or series if they ask.
I'm sure even most superhero fans will agree that some universes aren't designed to welcome newcomers. But here's the thing: those are just part of the genre. And the superhero genre is just a part of the entire American comics industry. Sure, Batman and Superman are very recognisable characters, but how would you react if someone assumed the whole manga industry revolved around Dragonball Z or Naruto? You would correct them, right? Well, we're trying to correct you and your blanket statements. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I don't know Robert McKee, but Joseph Campbell was interested in myths, comparative mythology, comparative religion, and stuff like that. At least that is what I gather from the few books written by Campbell that I have read. His books are not concerned with the question 'How to write a commercially successful story?' |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I agree. There are lots of great comic book writers/artists, especially newer generation ones, who have obviously been influenced by manga. You can see it in their work and that's fine. In fact, it's good. It's good to have unique or unusual influences. If you're so desperate to imitate manga though that you actually insist on calling it manga or for that matter reject the idea of an American publisher...well jeez, I really can't think such a person is anything more than a shallow imitator which really just leads me to conclude that they have no real business being a writer. |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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*sigh*
*heavy sigh* I'm tired of this constant arguing over the merits of Western and Eastern franchises that degrades into eventual name-calling and the same people saying the same crap over and over. If there was an actual reasonable debate going on, maybe it wouldn't be so annoying. But these threads seem to end up going the same direction each time. I had hoped that since these two threads (on top of others) were created in the Anime forum that people would keep these circular arguments over there. Please do so. Now, could someone recommend me some good Western comics that are self-contained and/or have an ending? And also some good comics that aren't superheroes? There have already been some listed in this thread, but I'd really like to hear more. Honestly, I'm kind of a n00b when it comes to the American comics franchise. I loved watching the Marvel and DC cartoons when I was younger, but the comics side of things always seemed like a daunting task to get into. The nice thing that manga provided at the time when I was first getting into it was a self-contained story with no continuations/off-shoots/reboots, etc, so I ended up following that route. I have, however, borrowed comics from the library that I enjoyed (I think Mause (sp?) was one of them). A while ago, someone mentioned a comic being released in America that was a horror series (this is a vague memory so forgive me if I'm incorrect over details). I think something about a house or bar being a meeting spot for different people across the universe and that a person couldn't leave until a task was completed? Does anyone know what I'm talking about and could provide me a name. That series sounds really interesting. I've also recently gotten into webcomics. I'm really loving the "Trying Human" webcomic - especially the art style. |
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 2606 Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City |
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Oh, how nice of you to provide me with a way to procrastinate grading 400 research papers! 
Ahem. Locke and Key is an excellent horror series written by Joe Hill about a house full of mysterious keys that open a variety of doors - including inside your head. I'm not entirely certain that it's done, but it is very self-contained. Amulet by Kazu Kibuishi is an American comic that is most definitely not finished but is imaginative and fascinating. It's about a girl named Emily who discovers that her grandfather was hiding some pretty big secrets in his (mechanized) house. Kibuishi also edits the Flight anthologies, which are good if you just want a taste of the more avant-garde American/Canadian works out there. They have a very nice variety. Ruse, written by Mark Waid, a guy better known for his superhero work, is a neat mystery set in an alternate Victorian era that pokes a bit of fun at the Sherlockian style mystery. CrossGen's original two volumes are out of print and Marvel just restarted it. I haven't read the new volume yet, but Waid is still the author, so that's a good sign. Fables by Bill Willingham is long-running and intimidating, but the single short story volume, 1001 Nights of Snowfall, is worth reading and presents a neat look at fairy tales. As for the major series, I'd say the first 8 make up a pretty decent and vaguely conclusive series, and the spin-off, Cinderella: From Fabletown with Love is a lot of fun. (Incidentally, a lot of fans seem to think that ABC ripped off Willingham's work for "Once Upon a Time.") The Courageous Princess is sadly unfinished, but the one volume that exists is absolutely worth reading. It is a charming fantasy and maybe if enough people buy it, the author will write more. His four volume series Neotopia is pretty good too. |
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