Forum - View topicChicks on Anime - Sep 2nd, 2008
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| einhorn303 Posts: 369 |
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| So, is ANN's next column going to be a panel of straight men reviewing the latest yaoi manga and anime? | ||||||||||||||||||
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| michizure Posts: 8 |
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Bamboo:
Point of order: that girl is subsequently shown to be spoiler[ violently insane.] Bamboo:
Robin:
There is a central conceit at work here to support the plot, however. If they girls have lives of their own, outside the harem setting, why do they keep coming back? If they don't come back, what happens to the story? Tenchi Muyo addresses this directly in several versions, as does (e.g.) Happy Lesson and the Love Hina manga: the cast disperses to follow their own interests, but ultimately decides they'd rather have the closeness and competition. The best of these shows portray the entire cast as an extended family, whose ties to one another are more important than the individuals' separate goals. That's not unknown in the real world -- google for "primary group" -- but is unusual outside of specialized, high-pressure environments (military, exploration, maybe sports teams) and, ultimately, perishable. The show focuses on the relationship while it lasts. Unreality creeps in when the story is extended again and again, due to its popularity. One series that does go on to show what happens after the cast breaks up is Paradise Kiss. That was pretty gut-wrenching, but satisfying in its own way. The Lyrical Nanoha franchise, on the other hand, managed a much happier "happily ever after." Neither of these is a harem anime per se, though, which may be significant. |
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| Zalis116 Moderator  Posts: 4812 Location: Tana Village |
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Contrast those with secondary male characters like Kentaro Sakata (Love Hina; anime-only) or Kazuharu Fukuyama (Girls Bravo) who are attractive, confident, and outgoing enough that females might realistically like them. Of course, they don't even get the time of day because they made the mistake of being in true harem anime. Heck, you'd think even somebody like Taro Yamada (Sister Princess) would have a fighting chance if all those girls weren't so obsessed with their Big Brother. RE: Wish Fulfillment -- Love Hina was one of the first anime I saw, as well as the first harem-type anime I saw. While I'm squarely in the target audience for the kind of fantasy fulfillment these shows present, I don't quite feel that vibe. Like the first time I saw LH, the main wish fulfillment operant with me was the main Keitaro/Naru relationship, not the "surrounded by beautiful women" component. I barely even realized it was a harem setup until I got to Love Hina Again and later read the manga. I just thought of the other girls as "wacky obstacles" to the main relationship, not as romantic rivals. There have been some series where even I had to at the level of wish-fulfillment. Like with Sekirei, where an exotic, attractive girl quite literally falls out of the sky onto yet another Keitaro Urashima clone. But is that going to stop me from watching it? No  |
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Shadowrun20XX Subscriber Posts: 908 Location: Las Vegas ~Hardcore Otaku |
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 just want to see the newest girl.I'll use myself as an example from now on.  |
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| Zalis116 Moderator Posts: 4812 Location: Tana Village |
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Last edited by Zalis116 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| GATSU Posts: 8419 |
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It elicits annoyance from me.
I don't really consider OMG a harem title, since there are-at the moment in the U.S. edition-only two girls who are interested in Keiichi, and one who's more interested in manipulating him for her own gain.
That's cus he is lame and bland. 
I'm guessing 'cus the guys tend to be dimwitted and/or unathletic.
Let's not get too ethnocentric, considering our President wants to equate birth control with abortion.
I think the idea is that, in spite of their powers, they're just as vulnerable as the guy, and that's what makes them appealing: that the guy can open up to them without being overwhelmed.
Judging by these shows, I think the ideal woman in Japan is someone who compliments and/or compensates for these guys. Robin:
That depends. There are female fans of these shows, as you yourselves admit, so maybe you can relate in the sense of having to deal with these clueless idiots, too.
I personally think it's their work ethic. Over here, even though it's evened out a bit, there are higher expectations on men to have it all than women. In Japan, waiting for someone else to make you happy might be considered "lazy". Even in Nana, a shojo-themed manga, Hachi is not considered to be doing her part in the relationship, by staying at home. |
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elreicht Posts: 37 Location: Inside a weird apartment... |
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Wow. I've been lurking for quite some time now and I must say that this column is really doing good and a lot of people are talking about it here in the forums. I'm just glad that the discussion is not deviating into a gender inequality issue like last time. 
I also thought when I first saw Love Hina that the other girls were just obstacles and not love rivals. I didn't feel any strong competition among the girls for Keitaro. I still don't know where to place Love Hina exactly but I can say that I could identify with Keitaro at some part of my life. As for O!MG, I don't think that it's a harem anime at all. And Keiichi is not really a loser like all of the usual protagonists in the genre. I think it's a good love story actually. But what of Video Girl Ai manga? Is it a harem manga? I don't really know how to place it but I really like the story and I think it was a bit realistic in spite of Ai Amano being a video girl...Or am I just deluding myself?  |
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Case Posts: 990 Location: Iowa City |
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| I'm a little disappointed. Since the panel chose the topic of harem anime to discuss, I was hoping the girls would respond to one (I felt) major point that someone brought up in the discussion of last week's column: Female "wish fullfillment" anime.
Bamboo says she'd like to see harem girls be more progressive. What about Boy Love characters? Does that genre inspire the same sense of negative regressiveness? I think it's an important question because the panelists have more in common with that target audience and should have more of an "insider" perspective? Any of the panelists reading this thread and feel like commenting? |
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Dorcas_AureliaSubscriber Posts: 3075 Location: Philly, PA; stupid Yankees. |
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Say what? Well, yeah there are three girls who have romantic feelings for Ayato (four if you count Quon), but considering that Asahina has zero interaction with the others, it doesn't really meet the competition requirement, which leaves a love triangle that is heavily stacked against Megumi. |
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ArthurFrDent Posts: 197 |
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Heh, my brain kinda crashed on this one:
'because yeah, you could make almost anything where there is more than one person interested in the protagonist a harem if RahXephon is [so what does that make EVA then?] In my own little poity head the definition goes something like: At least one purpose of the Harem Anime is to show the interactions and rivalries between a group of love interests and the main protagonist, and this is the main or co-equal plot point. It's not really the main point of RahXephon to look at the interactions between the females interested in Ayato... The Ixtli [Reika] doesn't view Haruka as a threat for example. Quon and Megumi never throw things at each other... On the other hand, I'd say that Tenchi Muyo GXP is very much about the Harem, because it is always concerned about the rivalry and interaction of the harem within themselves. It ends up being a total of 8 wives after all, 4 against 4 and the interaction of the first 4 with each other, and with Seina. In true style HE is also conflicted about who he likes the most, while his sempei Tenchi is just tired of his own Harem, for the most part. YMMV |
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SuperOnizuka Posts: 421 Location: When I look At the World- New Jersey |
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| I am enjoying this column! I think it is great read! | ||||||||||||||||||
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gynocrat_rex Posts: 54 Location: Texas |
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Could be, enough straight guys are reading the stuff. |
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Mohawk52 Posts: 3858 Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK. |
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| There is another Tenchi like harem series that no one seems to remember here. El- Hazard. It was even produced by some of the original Tenchi production team at AIC.
I think you guys are looking at this with eyes that are too western. The concept of one man with several wives has been imbedded (no pun intended) in eastern cultures for millenniums. and still practiced in some parts today. Also you all seem to be missing the point of these fantasies. It's escapism for lots of Japanese boys, and men who actually have no confidence, or experiences with girls, or women, because of their being the only child, also because of their strict adherence to polite protocall. therefore are shy to the point of being physically sick and disabled at the thought of actually having a relationship with any partner what so ever. In short, Hikikomori. Watch "Train man" and you'll get what I'm on about. Keep up the good work ladies. You got a winner here with this column. |
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stuckinfresno Posts: 171 Location: Fresno, CA |
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| Interesting to get the panel's opinions on harem. (Even though I CANNOT believe that Love Hina was left out - isn't that one of the oldest harem works out there?)
I think that all that can be said on harem has been . . . well said. I can't see haren working with progressive females types but yeah it does irk you to know that cooking competitions are the height of female talents in these types of works. Then again if you used some of the progressive ideas put forth by the panel it would ruin the male fantasy. Which is what harem really is. I liked the interesting note on reverse harem. I personally never cared for it because the girl tended to be rather weak and indecisive. (Example Fushigi Yuugi) That I don't know many reverse harem works - be it manga or anime. I guess this would be an interesting follow up for the panel. Does reverse harem work? |
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| Rednal Posts: 59 |
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| In defense of Shuffle, Kaede literally lives for the protagonist for more reason than that it's interesting; she's mentally unstable. Other than that, the show IS mostly wish fulfillment, but I do think it's important to note that the show is based off of a Visual Novel, and to please the original fans kind of has to have some of all the girls.
I don't believe harem-type shows are meant to be taken very seriously most of the time. That is, why not just sit back and enjoy it? Consider Seto no Hanayome; the main character is drowning in the ocean, and gets saved by a mermaid. If they are both to avoid death under mermaid law, then they have to get married. However... the female lead is the daughter of a mermaid yakuza family, the "idol" character is an intensely jealous slaveowner, the "rival" has a pathological fear of open spaces, the "shy girl" never gets her name mentioned... and there are at least two dozen different art styles used throughout the series... probably more. And the ending isn't particularly harem-esque, despite the number of girls that like the male lead. Not like Kanokon... which was just blatant wish-fulfillment. In other words, some shows are just more relaxed than others. Seto no Hanayome is RIDICULOUS at times. The idol character's father, for example... is really, really creepy-looking as he's like the Terminator but wears a Sailor Fuku in a few episodes. Harem, yes. Funny, yes. To be taken especially seriously, no. |
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