Forum - View topicChicks on Anime - Sep 9th, 2008
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sunflower Subscriber Posts: 301 |
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That's exactly what I was thinking. Casey rightly defines moe as an emotion (something that people feel when looking at a cute puppy), then they seem to forget that is something everyone feels about a good many things. Zac's bunny pictures are moe for crying out loud. It's a feeling and we all love it, look for it, and find it in different ways. Like you, I've seen the word moe used by BL mangaka and publications quite a bit recently. I was surprised when I first saw that it didn't even refer to cute boys, as one might think. It refers to moments in a story that make one's heart swell with emotion. I think the sexualization of the term is just a result of people not understanding it to begin with. |
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| abunai Encyclopedia Editor  Posts: 4770 Location: 露命 |
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| This is the first "Chicks on Anime" column I have read, and I must say that I was very impressed by the level of discussion. I'm definitely coming back for more.
The basic concept is gender-biased, and certain people would fling monkey faeces all over the place if this had been a "Dudes on Anime" column instead, but who cares about that? If it works, it works. I liked the puppy metaphor, for a lot of reasons. I think it may be sightly off-center, because a strong part of the sense of moe is that the object of the feeling must be sentient. You are identifying not so much with a dumb animal (I know, puppies aren't totally insensate, I've had dogs of my own -- but they aren't exactly capable of advanced conversation), as with a human (or reasonably interesting non-human, his being anime) person who has (fictional, but moving) emotional responses to situations, just like yourself. But the huggable-puppies metaphor is one of the best inoffensive metaphors for moe that I've seen yet, and I suspect that I'm going to get a lot of mileage out of it.
It's "retro-fitting" the concept of moe. Basically, the only people I've seen who would seriously argue that AzuDai is moe are the people who are prejudiced towards moe. I believe this is simply a technique to use a popular and established show as a tool to show how "horrible" and "pervasive" this nasty moe phenonmenon has become. A rhetorical twist, in other words.
I raised an eyebrow at this, because it is so very familiar to me. In numerous debates on the topic, I've seen this very method employed to indirectly tarnish moe as paedophilia. It is, incidentally, precisely the same sort of rhetoric that we saw during the Democratic Party primaries in the U.S. -- when Hillary Clinton was asked to comment on the persistent lies that Sen. Obama was a muslim, she replied: "There is nothing to base that on…as far as I know." By adding that last clause, she effectively left the door wide open for speculation that she meant the exact opposite. A nasty piece of rhetorical manoeuvering on the part of someone who should have held herself to a higher standard. Same thing here. "Moe fans aren't paedophiles....so far as I know." 
Well, I certainly do. For me, a strong part of the draw in watching moe shows is to vicariously enjoy the youth and innocence of the characters. It reminds me of the time when I was, myself, young and innocent (long, long ago). When the characters go through tragedy, as they often do in anime (because, let's face it, anime is largely melodrama), I can enjoy the emotions of commiseration and a sense of wanting to protect these weaker persons, had I but been part of the story. That's what artistic media are all about -- the evocation of emotion (and insight, too, yes yes).
I don't generally let my enjoyment of things be disturbed by the ordure some hater on the internet heaps on it, nor should you. Just watch what you always do, and ignore the opinions of people whose opinions you don't respect, anyway. Best way to roll, I promise. - abunai |
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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| Even if you leave out the loli angle, isn't the whole moe movement pretty much a thin excuse to objectify women? I mean, using the puppy analogy, everyone loves cute puppies, but in reality cute puppies grow up to be dogs, resulting in many dogs being neglected or abandoned once they fail to live up to that unreasonable standard.
I mean, don't these shows pretty much say that in order for the cool guys to pay attention to you, girls should remain cute, quiet and subservient? Isn't this the same complaint that gets leveled against MTV for teaching girls that popular girls dress like skanks or the the CW for teaching teens that angst is the new cool? |
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LordPrometheusSubscriber Posts: 410 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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I actually commented on that very thing back during the first appearance of this column. It's just amusing to note our social hypocrisy and double standards. If we're all supposed to be equal, then getting mad over a column called "Dudes on Anime" shouldn't happen, and yet we all know it would. Sad. That aside, for the most part it's been a good column, and I've enjoyed it. |
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prime_pm Posts: 447 Location: Under Your Bed |
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| In terms of "moe," Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, increasingly becoming my favorite show ever, has tackled this issue with the character Maria, who looks like a black-haired version of Ed.
In her debut, she is portrayed as an innocent young girl who illegally immigrated to Japan and lives in a small room with 50 other people. She finds random things on the streets and collects them as though they're treasure, eg. tv's, pagers, babies. She acts so childish and innocent that other classmates, in her debut episode, suddenly feel the need to "protect her." So they give her charity like food and money. She also misconstrues how a pedophile is very nice to children. Did I mention this is a dark comedy yet? So, in this sense, Maria represents a parody of the "moe" form, in the sense that she's childish, innocent, and doesn't know better. I love this show because it's become a kind of social satire of Japan. You could also say that Pani Poni Dash, from the same director, is the parody of "moe" in its extreme. Also, in this logic, wouldn't "Close-Ups of Dogs With Funny Hats" be the equivalent of "moe"? Last edited by prime_pm on Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kenotic Posts: 131 |
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No - more than many, many other issues in anime. Everything for Harem series to stereotypical high school comedies can be used to objectify women. I don't know how "Moe" is worse than a dozen of girls throwing themselves at the main male character. Maybe it's just because what I watch that is considered moe doesn't seem too demeaning. Kamichu, for example, doesn't make me want to get with the junior high girls in the series -- it makes me look forward to having children. Maybe it's also because my friend is a middle school teacher with enough horror stories to remind me that most kids that age only think they're God.
Again, I could have gotten this from Kasumi Tendo on Ranma a good 20 years ago. Any maid series could have stated this before the moe thing was popular. Meanwhile, the other show I enjoy that gets called moe is Higurashi - and it contains very proactive, brilliant, creative, powerful girls. Sure, they're cute and have their "innocent" moments, but it's hard to think of them as weak-willed and passive. |
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Kimiko_0Subscriber Posts: 1018 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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Robin went missing again? 
I think the 'cute puppies' analogy isn't completely accurate. If that was all there is to moe, then words like 'cute' or 'kawaii' would be sufficient. Moe is more than just cuteness. What that extra is I'm not sure. Perhaps it is the protective feeling elicited in the viewer, perhaps it is the perceived innocence/purity/naiveness. Y'all bring up an interesting comparison with bishounen. The protective feeling doesn't quite fit that analogy though. If women read/watch bishounen because they want to see men interacting as equals, then it would be more accurate I think to describe moe as something men watch/read because they want to see women (girls) interacting as equals. Hmm. Not sure that actually makes sense. As for the whole moe thing depicting women as innocent/pure/docile, yeah, I was missing that angle from the discussion too. I'd like to see a more feminist POV in subsequent discussions. I mean, that's an angle you rarely, if ever, get from men discussing anime, and it would help distinguish this series of discussions. |
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here-and-faraway Posts: 300 Location: California |
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| I really enjoyed this week's discussion. | ||||||||||
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| burzmali Posts: 143 |
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While anime's treatment of women borders on Women in refrigerators a lot of the time, I would argue that shows that portray women as airheads that fall in love with someone at the drop of a hat are marginally better than moe shows where the girl is more like a pet than a person.
Well, I tend to think the term moe is used too broadly. In general, I think if the moe girl could be replaced by a cat without significantly altering the story, you truly have found moe.
But that isn't really moe then. Think of the winged girl or the sick girl in snow from Kanon. I haven't seen the whole series yet, but those strike me as the best examples of moe I can come up with on short notice. If proactive is an adjective that describes a character, I can't really see how they can be moe. |
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| Rednal Posts: 59 |
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| Dear Chicks on Anime;
This week's "Moe" column could be said to have a general focus on one of the things that attracts viewers. I've been very curious, however, as to your feelings on the creation of a fetish for personality types; namely, tsundere and what is more-or-less its opposite, yandere, especially when portrayed very strongly (characters such as spoiler[Yuno from Mirai Nikki]). What is it you believe attracts people to this sort of thing? ~Rednal ===Rednal's Bite-Size Dictionary for the 1 person here who reads this and may not know the terms=== Tsundere: A girl who starts out rough and active and gradually becomes more loving. Alternatively, a girl who's nice inside but just acts tough. Think spoiler[Kagami] from spoiler[Lucky Star]. Yandere: Basically, the opposite of Tsundere; a nice girl who goes psycho on people, usually involving a knife or other metal weapon of some sort. spoiler[Kaede] from spoiler[Shuffle] is a good example of this sort of character. Last edited by Rednal on Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Anime World Order Posts: 193 Location: Florida |
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Actually, the part I can't believe is that my cyberpunk, sci-fi, action-adventure anime by and large no longer exists outside of the occasional remake, at least not in the same way it used to. I give you my utmost assurance that there's not even a hint of denial contributing to that disbelief; it's almost entirely disdain. But you're 100% correct that one of the biggest superspreader vectors for the moe plague is the fujoshi. The ardent moe supporters and the fujoshi are ultimately two sides of the same coin, and the understated alliance resulting from the combined demographic is formidable indeed. For all who liked Tomohiro Machiyama's article on moe as seen in the book he co-authored with [TV's] Patrick Macias Cruising the Anime City: An Otaku Guide to Neo-Tokyo, be on the lookout in the pages of an exciting future installment of Otaku USA magazine for THE GREAT MOE DEBATE, for which he is a contributor. I also contributed to this article, and just so we're clear: if people think I'm harsh on moe, they oughta read what Tomohiro Machiyama has to say about it... |
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| Dahling Posts: 48 |
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| I'm a little disappointed that Sumomomo Momomo didn't come up. Momoko can probably be described as moe and people would look at her a kinda agree, but her personality is totally wrong in the sense of 'non-threatening'. And Koushi is a very average guy (albeit with a strange family) who gets thrown into this situation against his will. I would just have loved to hear what the chicks said about that. | ||||||||||
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MorwenLaicoriel Posts: 1196 Location: Colorado |
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| As a female anime fan, I feel a little odd on this subject...I almost feel like there's a bit of a double standard going on.
Let me explain--when I think of some of my favorite guy characters in anime, I notice that I have a tendency to pick up on guys that are "sensitive" or "troubled", and have a lot of cuteness in them. For example, some of my favorite guys from anime are Mytho from Princess Tutu, Shinji from Evangelion, and Chrono from Chrono Crusade. Part of the reason I like these three characters and feel an emotional pull towards them is (1) they're adorable, and (2) they all go through a ton in their respective series and have a fair share of angst. Mytho's clueless, naive responses to things means he needs someone to constantly watch out for him, unless he jumps out of a window trying to save a bird that could fly anyway. Shinji is (infamously) disturbed and is constantly thrown through an emotional wringer. Chrono--although much older than he seems--looks like a young twelve year old boy, and has a tendency to have an openly emotional response, like when early on in the series he first violently reacts to when he thinks his friend has died, only to burst into tears when he snaps out of it. Now, the urge to squeal "Oh gosh, he really needs a hug" isn't the ONLY reason I like these characters--there's more to them than just the emotional turmoil or open innocence they sometimes exhibit. (For example, both Mytho and Chrono have other sides to their personalities where they desire to protect others and are both powerful warriors, and even Shinji is shown to have a violent temper when provoked.) But arguably, part of the reason I do like characters like this is the emotional vulnerability and sensitive sides make them less threatening to me than the typical "macho" character. In a sense, this isn't very different than the emotions the panel was saying that male moe fans have towards the girls in these shows. Yet when I've expressed an opinion like "I love Mytho, and I really want to give him a big hug sometimes" I don't ever run up against people saying "But isn't that objectifying?!" I do get some friends of mine saying "Ew, why would you like a guy like that? I want a MAN!", but nothing to indicate they think it's somehow morally wrong to feel that way towards a male character. I guess I'm getting off on a tangent, but what I mean is...it feels a little weird to me that as a girl there's nothing wrong with me liking sweet, innocent characters and wanting to hug, soothe and protect them. But if I was a guy, it's something that would probably be looked down upon. Why? Because there's a sexual overtone? That's assuming that guys are incapable of affection towards a woman without some sort of sexual drive to it, isn't it? Or, conversely, it's assuming that as a girl, I don't have anything sexual towards these guys and it's all a "pure" love. (Which, I'll confess is not entirely true--the traits I focused on for the sake of this post don't really make me think "that's sexy", but some of the OTHER traits of those characters? When Mytho is in his princely persona, swinging around a sword? Sure, that's sexy! So is Chrono in his demonic form!) I guess I sometimes feel that these days, as a woman we're permitted to feel a whole gamut of emotions and fall into all sorts of roles, whereas guys...not so much. A woman can wear pants and ties, be into sports, action movies, guns, and all sorts of stereotypical "guy" things that, say a hundred years ago or so would've raised some eyebrows. But at the same time, if a guy is into stereotypically girl things--more outwardly emotional, likes fashion and romantic movies, ballet, etc, he's either perceived as gay, or whimpy and emasculated. That really feels like a bit of an odd double standard to me. (Although I guess, to be completely fair, a relationship with a guy of the qualities I mentioned--sensitive, emotional but still strong physically and protective--would be seen as an "equal" partnership since the guy could still protect the girl, but the girl would give him a listening ear/emotional support. Whereas the average everydude and moe moe girl wouldn't be equal, as much? I dunno.) |
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ParagonDoD Posts: 28 |
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I suppose so, but is there anything in fiction (or even art/entertainment in general) that isn't objectified? I mean, objectification is how art works--taking an idea, concept, event, trend, etc. and concretizing it. |
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| Goodpenguin Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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I'm don't think 'sex' has been taken out of (certain) 'Moe', it's just replaced a physical model with a more emotional one. Even in days of more traditionally masculine 'ecchi' fan-service there was rarely any actual physical consummation occurring. A similar lack of overt sexuality in 'Moe' does not indicate desire has been drawn out, it's just been replaced with new 'fantasy' behaviors. Dating-sim 'Moe' is aimed at a very small male geek niche in Japan, one who's probable difficulty in the social realm means traditional 'physical ecchi' likely serves to only reinforce a dating/relationship field they are uncomfortable operating on. Something like 'Green Green' to them isn't escapism, it would be a reminder of the kind of girls (physically mature, confident in attitude) they don't feel confident to engage with. So in comes 'Moe', with it's passive, more physically diminutive female designs. Instead of the hyper athlete and the intellectual class president you get the clumsy, soft-spoken child-hood friend and the adoring, sickly little sister. It's a fantasy-view that replaces an equal-footing (as in the female the equal rival of the male), physically/sexually forward design with a view of the female love interest as vulnerable and non-threating, completely reliant on the male character to solve her problems. Dating-sim/H-game 'Moe' also doesn't preclude 'Moe' of a wider variety. As said in the column there's a general enjoyment of 'cute' (especially in Japan), and so you can easily have 'Moe' entertainment delivering material that's aimed very differently than dating-sim/H-game adaptations, while simultaneously using some of the same genre tropes. To the other aspect, I don't mean to play the villain but I'm not as fond of this features current focus as some other readers. In terms of an entertaining column, there are four lively contributors who can put a very readable spin on things. The trouble for me is the focus on *very serious cultural things* over more general industry-specific material. The format of the column runs (in a positive way) somewhere between personal blog and dorm-room chat session, and if your sticking in *very serious topics* it can come across as a bit scattershot; and if it runs somewhat longer as this column did, kind of rambling. That's not to say it isn't entertaining, but it begins to feel a bit 'looser' than a regular column. To also echo a point a poster made about an earlier column, I don't doubt the contributors are all very intelligent folks, but their also quite young. I'm 30 and study/teach in a poli-sci department that lectures on social issues quite frequently, and I feel that I've got nowhere near the life-experience to authoritatively talk about certain issues. There often seems to be good points in these columns, but also a lot of places where theres limited perception bias as well. To have folks in their young-ish 20's tackle *really serious issues* in kind of a 'blog chat' fashion, and with the exception of one contributor rarely even engage in the board discussions it's designed to facilitate, can come across as perhaps unintentionally a bit haughty. I really enjoy the style and interplay of the contributors and am in no way down on the feature, but just for my own two cents I wish the subject matter was 'dialed back' a bit focus-wise. For relatively serious cultural/social issues, a 'roundtable chat' style reads a tad informal for really giving a subject a thorough framing. |
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